RVD shoots..............again!!!

[the pinjockey 0]

So what is your point? Booker is a better wrestler than RVD? Ok, I agree.

 

But that still doesn't change the fact that when HHH faced RVD, he decided on the most grounded style for a match. Therefore he intentionally took away RVD's flashy offense, that gets the crowd behind him. And exposed him for the poor mat wrestler he is. The problem is a title match, at a PPV is not the time to expose the most popular face in the company as a poor wrestler.

[AndrewTS 0]

In-ring skills also come into play when you want to make anti-HHH and anti-Nash posts.

 

When a wrestler is, such as

 

in the case of Nash:

 

aren't over

 

are so injury-prone that you end up spending extended periods out of time injured from being too old and broken down to stay an active competitor

 

never was a draw even when heavily pushed and more healthy

 

didn't earn a fucking thing and was just shoved into the main event spot because of friendships/the boss liking you.

 

AND....

 

in the case of HHH

 

When you aren't over enough to justify your push

 

are so injury-prone that you end up spending extended periods out of time out because of injury from too roided up and poorly conditioned

 

haven't been a draw as champion enough to justify a long title reign

 

and your booking cuts the knees out from under midcarders who should be pushed as credible threats...

 

...then if you suck in the ring, there's just another reason.

 

Everyone on the roster should bring something to the table. Ring-work, charisma, a unique style that the fans dig (even if it isn't "good" necessarily), a cool persona, drawing power, etc.

 

HHH isn't completely unfit as champion, but the booking of him is extremely counterproductive, and he won't stay away long enough to fully recover from his injuries (if that's possible). His matches are often boring, but that's just a minor annoyance. If he was booked to look somewhat vulnerable and had challengers that the fans could get behind that looked credible he could have have great money-drawing feuds.

 

Nash has mic skills, but only playing a laid-back character. The interviews he did made him look like a stupid-ass and the entire HHH-Nash feud was a hokey disaster.

 

Then of course, there are guys like Nathan Jones, who bring NOT A FUCKING THING to the table and deserve to be fired for total uselessness.

[HellSpawn 0]

But that still doesn't change the fact that when HHH faced RVD, he decided on the most grounded style for a match. Therefore he intentionally took away RVD's flashy offense, that gets the crowd behind him. And exposed him for the poor mat wrestler he is. The problem is a title match, at a PPV is not the time to expose the most popular face in the company as a poor wrestler.

Several points:

 

1st, like some people said, if the WWe allow RVD to "shoot" then... its a worked shoot.

 

2nd, (after the quote) Or probably is the momment for RVD to show that he is more than a Heavier Hardy on Drugs.

 

3rd... "the most popular face in the company as a poor wrestler"... YEAH, he deserves a World Title.

 

Thas another double standard...

Fan Fav Poor Wrestler (you said it not me)?

Deserves a World Title

 

Hated Poor Wrestler?

FIRE HIM/HER/THEM !!!

[the pinjockey 0]

Again I ask what's your point?

 

RVD is a poor wrestler, but the fans have been screaming for him to be moved up. So move him up.

 

A hated, poor wrestler should be fired, because they have neither the fan support nor the in-ring ability.

[Guest TheGame2705]

So what is your point? Booker is a better wrestler than RVD? Ok, I agree.

 

But that still doesn't change the fact that when HHH faced RVD, he decided on the most grounded style for a match. Therefore he intentionally took away RVD's flashy offense, that gets the crowd behind him. And exposed him for the poor mat wrestler he is. The problem is a title match, at a PPV is not the time to expose the most popular face in the company as a poor wrestler.

I'm not saying who's a better worker. I'm saying that Booker was able to work that formula and have a good match. Most of Booker's offense is kicks and that Houston Hangover which turned into a somersault leg drop. It's not over who is better, it's illustrating that what HHH did wasn't horrible. RVD just couldn't do it and HHH shouldn't be blamed for RVD not knowing how to do the match.

[AndrewTS 0]

Thas another double standard...

Fan Fav Poor Wrestler (you said it not me)?

Deserves a World Title

 

Hated Poor Wrestler?

FIRE HIM/HER/THEM !!!

 

There's usually far more problems with the "hated poor wrestler" other than their ring work.

 

For example, Steiner was so horrible that marks couldn't even stand his matches, plus he sucks as a face. His mic skills suck. WWE gave fans no reason to care about him and had extremely silly build up to his match with Trips. This made his feud with HHH a disaster.

 

I've covered Nash and Trips already.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

"Booker was able to work that formula and have a good match"

 

Just so we're all clear...you're calling the Booker/HHH match at WrestleMania a good match.

[Guest TheGame2705]

"Booker was able to work that formula and have a good match"

 

Just so we're all clear...you're calling the Booker/HHH match at WrestleMania a good match.

Yes.

[the pinjockey 0]

So what is your point?  Booker is a better wrestler than RVD?  Ok, I agree.

 

But that still doesn't change the fact that when HHH faced RVD, he decided on the most grounded style for a match.  Therefore he intentionally took away RVD's flashy offense, that gets the crowd behind him.  And exposed him for the poor mat wrestler he is.  The problem is a title match, at a PPV is not the time to expose the most popular face in the company as a poor wrestler.

I'm not saying who's a better worker. I'm saying that Booker was able to work that formula and have a good match. Most of Booker's offense is kicks and that Houston Hangover which turned into a somersault leg drop. It's not over who is better, it's illustrating that what HHH did wasn't horrible. RVD just couldn't do it and HHH shouldn't be blamed for RVD not knowing how to do the match.

So essentially what you are saying is that Booker knew how to work a style that RVD didn't know how to? And how is that not saying Booker is a better worker.

 

I would argue, though, that RVD is much more leg reliant than Booker.

 

But the problem lies in the fact that HHH knew going into that match that RVD couldn't work that style. Everyone who knew wrestling could tell you that. So HHH decided to go into a match working a style he knew his opponent couldn't work. That is sabotage.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

This is why it's impossible to argue with you.

[AndrewTS 0]

I'm saying that Booker was able to work that formula and have a good match. Most of Booker's offense is kicks and that Houston Hangover which turned into a somersault leg drop. It's not over who is better, it's illustrating that what HHH did wasn't horrible. RVD just couldn't do it and HHH shouldn't be blamed for RVD not knowing how to do the match.

 

A Mania match that was probably carefully booked and laid out...

 

versus a match that clearly wasn't. Think that HHH and someone like Patterson sat down and planned out how the match was going to be? If so and Rob ignored advice and did the contrary that he was asked, sure, there's a point. However, it seems like HHH did this on his own whim, probably springing it last minute and giving little preparation time.

 

Besides, HHH is the heel and the vet. He controlled the match, and probably told Rob what moves to do, etc. Assuming that's true, it's HHH's fault the match blew because he went in with an agenda to expose Rob, not put on a good match.

 

You could apply the same arguments to how Shamrock's push was botched, but Shamrock had even less ring presence and needed his hand held during matches. He was massively over as a face, though.

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Yeah, you know... the heel (or veteran if theres a big difference in experience) calls the matches for a reason.

 

They are supposed to know how to lay out a good match...not literally cut the legs off of people.

[Guest TheGame2705]

How do you all know HHH had an agenda going into that match to make him look like crap? I agree the veteran should be in control to help the match and help make his opponent look good but I feel he shouldn't do all the work. I feel RVD didn't carry his side of the match. I also don't feel HHH brought in a grudge and purposely tried to make him look bad. I think the match sucking was RVD's fault because he couldn't carry his end. The veteran shouldn't have to carry the match on his back and wrestle for the other person too if he himself isn't that great of a wrestler. And regardless if HHH is able to carry people, the veteran's job in making sure matches go well isn't to do the other person's work.

[the pinjockey 0]

How do you all know HHH had an agenda going into that match to make him look like crap?

Because he going into the match, he decided to work a match he knew his opponent couldn't work. I could understand, if in the middle of the match you changed things up a little or something. But to go into the match, working a style against your opponent, you are going into the match to make him look like an ass.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

is a poor wrestler, but the fans have been screaming for him to be moved up. So move him up.

 

Gokdberg, anybody?

[Guest TheGame2705]

How do you all know HHH had an agenda going into that match to make him look like crap?

Because he going into the match, he decided to work a match he knew his opponent couldn't work. I could understand, if in the middle of the match you changed things up a little or something. But to go into the match, working a style against your opponent, you are going into the match to make him look like an ass.

Triple H never changes his style except when he fights in PPV main events and he tries to incorporate leg moves. HHH has worked successful matches with high fliers/people who need their legs before like HBK, Jericho, Booker T, TAKA, etc.

[AndrewTS 0]

Take a look at Steiner/HHH to see a more extreme example--why the fuck didn't HHH take over on offense more when he saw the shitty, blown up, exhausted mess Steiner was? He saw Steiner had run out of moves. He should have taken over on offense, slapped on a rest hold and told Steiner what he had to do to try to salvage the mess.

 

As for RVD/HHH--HHH didn't have to wrestle the whole match for RVD, just call the spots and suggest alternatives for RVD to do to work in the context of the match.

 

RVD has other moves, but he's mostly sticking to the same ones because that's WWE style. When all your WWE-sanctioned moves are leg-based moves, you're gonna have to either do them anyway or think on your feet to come up with reasonable alternatives.

 

Of course, HHH probably had no malicious intent. He's certainly secure about his position. He's unselfish and wouldn't do anything to jeopardize anyone else and make himself look good in the process. Everyone comes out of his feuds looking like a million bucks and looking strong even if (when) they lose.

 

That's why the Raw main event scene is so rich with guys that HHH's feuds helped secure. Yup.

 

HHH has worked successful matches with high fliers/people who need their legs before like HBK

 

He worked HBK's back mainly at Summerslam. The Armageddon match was pretty much shit. Plus they're buddies. HBK is a good worker anyway.

 

Jericho

 

He hasn't had a "good" match with Jericho since the quad tear, and Jericho is a great worker anyway himself.

 

Booker T

 

Mania match that was probably more carefully planned out, as I already said. Plus Booker's style isn't crippled without his kicks.

 

TAKA, etc.

 

Pre-quad-tear.

Edited October 21, 2003 by AndrewTS

[the pinjockey 0]

I don't really recall HHH working anything different than your typical Main Event brawl style matchup before the RVD match.

 

And again, those other workers are better-much better than RVD. You can trust them to work a different style of match.

 

RVD couldn't

HHH knew he couldn't

HHH did anyway

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

I think what Game is trying to dance around saying is that "It isn't HHH's job to make RVD look good".

 

I think we're just all waiting for him to say it so we can tell him that it is.

 

Of course...HHH and job don't work well together.

[Guest MikeSC]

HHH changed his style for the match though. Instead of working the typical WWF main event style, he changed to an old school NWA style match. When you change your typical M.O. to show up an opponent, you are intentionally sabotaging him.

The match was about the same as most of HHH's work.

 

Rob is just sorely incapable of adapting his style.

 

Heck, he basically said in that interview that if he left WWE, he'd go back to his old ECW style.

 

And God knows THAT generated little but dull, plodding matches.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

"I don't see how working your own style puts HHH at fault."

 

This isn't a discussion of styles.

 

This is a discussion of choices.

 

HHH's choice was to work a 20 minute mat based match where he worked RVD's leg knowing full well that all of RVD's offense is leg oriented.

 

He totally and completely went out to expose RVD's weaknesses when someone else could EASILY do the same to him if he weren't in his spot.

Logically, since HHH is supposed to be a "cerebral assassin" and all ---

 

SHOULDN'T HE HAVE FOCUSED ON ROB'S LEGS for the entire match? if his "entire offense" is based on his legs, shouldn't a guy who is booked as being an "intelligent" wrestler TARGET the legs?

 

It seems to make a bit of sense.

-=Mike

[Guest TheGame2705]

Shock, TheMikeSC actually made good points.

[the pinjockey 0]

If RVD could adapt his style and turn in a decent match, then yes it would make sense to target his legs. But, again, HHH knew RVD couldn't work the match he wanted to use. So HHH went in with the idea that he wanted to expose RVD.

[cabbageboy 0]

First off, HHH and RVD matches have all been kinda weak because they don't fit either guy's strengths. Let's review two widely accepted smark mantras:

 

1. HHH is a good seller when he wants to be, but has boring and shitty offense.

 

2. RVD is a mediocre seller (good bumper, not seller), but has exciting and innovative offense that pops a crowd.

 

Now, watch the matches. They are the EXACT opposite of this! They are all HHH doing his boring as shit offense with mediocre RVD selling. There's only so much bumping you can do for a friggin facebuster and a knee lift.

 

And by the way, if RVD is such a bad wrestler then why is it that he's had more solid matches than most of the roster since July 2001 when he arrived?

[The Ghost of bps21 0]

Oh what a wonderful state the WWE would be in if everyone chose to exploit their opponents weaknesses.

 

People could move at more than quarter speed and HHH would be exposed.

 

The could work HBK's back and he'd be exposed (oh wait...they did that one).

 

That's why it's OK. Because that's how they make money.

[Guest TheGame2705]

So really what this all boils down to is that HHH sucks because he didn't cover up the fact that RVD sucks?

 

I can live with that

[Guest MikeSC]

If RVD could adapt his style and turn in a decent match, then yes it would make sense to target his legs. But, again, HHH knew RVD couldn't work the match he wanted to use. So HHH went in with the idea that he wanted to expose RVD.

That shouldn't matter. Logically, if Hunter is supposed to be a brilliant tactician and all, the legs SHOULD be his primary focus and it's up to Rob to adapt.

 

Flair worked the legs on EVERY guy he faced, whether it made sense or not. People were expected to adapt.

 

There are times when HHH has screwed up in the ring. He should've done A LOT more to make his Rumble match with Steiner less of a total disaster than it was (though, honestly, I'm not sure what he could do. Scott was HORRIBLE as WCW Champ, something many seem to have forgotten).He absolutely and totally destroyed Test's one shot at stardom when he squashed him on RAW about 2 weeks or so after the whole wedding thing back in 1999. And he absolutely should have jobbed to Jericho in HITC last year.

 

But his match with RVD, while not terribly thrilling, was the way Hunter should have worked the match. You're supposed to ground a "high-flier". It makes the most sense, hoenstly.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

Oh what a wonderful state the WWE would be in if everyone chose to exploit their opponents weaknesses.

 

People could move at more than quarter speed and HHH would be exposed.

 

The could work HBK's back and he'd be exposed (oh wait...they did that one).

 

That's why it's OK. Because that's how they make money.

Everybody works Shawn's back. That is LOGICAL in the matches. Any wrestler who has a known injury is something you target. Heck, everybody went after HHH's leg for MONTHS when he came back.

 

Name a single high flyer who has a match with a slower, bigger worker where the bigger guy DOESN'T go after the leg. Heck, I didn't hear griping that Flair worked over Ricky Morton's legs in their matches --- but, of course, Morton could outwork RVD in his sleep.

 

If wrestling is supposed to look as much like a shoot as possible --- then you HAVE to target weaknesses or "the entire basis of a guy's offense".

 

If Hunter had to sell some of Rob's asinine spots --- and he is laden with them --- RVD should be expected to work a match that involved PSYCHOLOGY to some degree.

-=Mike

[AndrewTS 0]

Logically, since HHH is supposed to be a "cerebral assassin" and all ---

 

SHOULDN'T HE HAVE FOCUSED ON ROB'S LEGS for the entire match? if his "entire offense" is based on his legs, shouldn't a guy who is booked as being an "intelligent" wrestler TARGET the legs?

 

It seems to make a bit of sense.

-=Mike

 

Logically, since HHH should have been controlling the match and calling the spots, he should have been able to lay out a match that would allow RVD to work with that match gameplan. If not, RVD should have sat down with HHH and a booker to help develop a loose plan for the match.

 

Again, I'm not saying it's not partly Rob's fault, but HHH can't be completely exonerated, either. Either of those channels should have been employed if you know a worker like RVD is going to be challenging a worker whose style wouldn't work with RVD's well normally. Blame HHH, blame the bookers, blame RVD, blame WWE style--but not RVD alone. He was just working with his limited moveset he's been allowed to actually use and keep the crowd entertained between HHH's thrilling offense.

 

Again, yeah, RVD's not a good worker. Hardly anyone is saying he is. Yet you're arguing a moot point anyway. The crowd was still cheering and chanting for RVD, and if he'd won they wouldn't bitch about his selling. They'd have popped, like they did with his fake win over Taker.

 

Marks don't understand the "story" of the match anyway. If they'd think about it at all they'd probably consider that RVD's legs are just tough, while wimps like Bret hobble around like a cripple after having people pound on their knees a little.

 

Maybe if the commentators on Raw actually sold the stories of regular matches instead of chatting it up about the stupid angles then maybe it would be different.

 

If wrestling is supposed to look as much like a shoot as possible --- then you HAVE to target weaknesses or "the entire basis of a guy's offense".

 

Then let him use moves that aren't centered completely on that. RVD has used suplexes, some martial arts punches, the gorilla press, etc. However, you rarely or never see them on WWE TV anymore.

Edited October 21, 2003 by AndrewTS

[Highland 0]

HHH worked on RVD's leg. If anyone else does it, then we call it good heel tactics, but because HHH did it. we call it burying and exposing RVD. Please, HHH filled his role as a heel and if he really wanted to get revenge for the throat injury (which was an accident) then RVD would be on Heat or Velocity, not Raw.