treble 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Theo's? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Understandable. I used the phrase many times before the season in response to doubtful Red Sox fans. I used to say silly things like Bill Mueller was better than Shea Hillenbrand. Man that looks good in retrospect. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Yeah, the Marlins are going to trade Beckett... If you storm the front office with stormtroopers and take them hostage, maybe....EVEN for Nomar. Stormtroopers die too easily Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 28, 2003 No, they dumped a coward who couldn't pull that obviously-tiring pitcher out of the game because he's Pedro Martinez. BTW, Mike, Pedro isn't exactly the best pitcher on the planet these days. His velocity was down this year, especially late in the season, and it was obvious he was out of gas in Game 7. Pedro of today isn't as great as the Pedro of yesterday, but there is NOBODY better than him right now. Not a soul. And he was lights out during that game. Little probably should have pulled him, but as was stated earlier, he in a no-win situation. Embree gets shelled and he's a moron for yanking Pedro. Pedro gets shelled and he is an idiot for leaving him in. Little should have gone out there and taken the ball from him, but he let Pedro, far from the humblest of men, rest on his laurels and reputation, and it cost the Sox the World Series. Pedro's a gamer, sure, and what pitcher ISN'T going to want to stay in at that point. Logic dictates you take him out, though: he was clearly tired, and the Sox had the best bullpen in the postseason. BUT, this was the same pen that cost the Sox numerous games during the season and you never know when they would return to their usual form. And, as has been pointed out, if Embree has gotten shelled (and having seen his work in Atlanta, it's not exactly a stretch), Grady would have been shelled for taking out Pedro for the "crappy bullpen". The bullpen had been the best in the preseason. Taking Pedro out in that spot woud have been easy to defend, considering how obvious it was that he was running on fumes. Whoever comes in from the 'pen might not have the talent Pedro does, but a fresh, rested reliever is better than a tired starter, no matter how good the starter's reputation is. Little was a coward, plain and simple, and cowards should be fired from managerial positions. He took a team of egomaniacs and made them a team that was one game from the World Series. Whomever they get to replace him likely will not come close to matching that. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rob E Dangerously 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Whitey Herzog wouldn't mind if the Red Sox contacted him about their managerial job Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JangoFett4Hire 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Banky? One puny mistake? One puny mistake would be not touching home plate... or walking halfway down the third base line while the ball is still in play. Actually those are huge blunders, but not as bad as leaving a Pedro-on-fumes on the mound with a pitch count of over 115 in which batters have a frigging .346 average against him when the pitch count is that high. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I can't wait for 3pm I want Bud Black or Rick Peterson to be the new manager. As I've stated several times we need somebody with a mind for pitching Pitching coaches don't always make the best managers. Ray Miller, Larry Rothchild. Both great pitching coaches, but didn't fair well has managers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Exactly. There's solid statistics that show Pedro's effectiveness falling off a cliff after 100+ pitches. A stat oriented manager would realize this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EVIL~! alkeiper 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Pitching coaches don't always make the best managers. Ray Miller, Larry Rothchild. Both great pitching coaches, but didn't fair well has managers. Hell, Joe Kerrigan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Any manager would realize that Martinez should of been pulled. That includes Little who was afraid to tell Martinez he was done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tom 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Pedro of today isn't as great as the Pedro of yesterday, but there is NOBODY better than him right now. Not a soul. WTF? Ever heard of Roy Halladay? Roy Oswalt? Kerry Wood? Mark Prior? Heck, I could name a bunch more people I'd take over Pedro. Face it: he's fragile and his hard-throwing days are getting to be in his rear-view mirror. Pedro will have to PITCH now, and while I don't doubt he'll be able to make the transition, the ubermensch you're thinking of is gone, replaced by someone who can't overpower people like he used to. And he was lights out during that game. He was doing well, until that last inning, when he was getting lit up like a Roman Candle at a flamethrower convention. BUT, this was the same pen that cost the Sox numerous games during the season and you never know when they would return to their usual form. Fair enough. But the combustible BK Kim was out of the picture, and like I said before, a fresh reliever is better than a clearly tired Pedro. Whomever they get to replace him likely will not come close to matching that. Maybe not, but presuming the man they hire has seen his managerial balls drop, he'll certainly get more of a chance to find out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 28, 2003 WTF? Ever heard of Roy Halladay? Roy Oswalt? Kerry Wood? Mark Prior? Heck, I could name a bunch more people I'd take over Pedro. Face it: he's fragile and his hard-throwing days are getting to be in his rear-view mirror. Pedro will have to PITCH now, and while I don't doubt he'll be able to make the transition, the ubermensch you're thinking of is gone, replaced by someone who can't overpower people like he used to. Halladay? He's a good pitcher to be sure, but I'd STILL take Pedro when the pressure is on. I've not seen Roy pitch a high-pressure game yet. I've seen Pedro EXCEL in them for a while now. Wood? Oh, please. Decent power pitcher --- heck, above-average --- but he is NOT the second coming of Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan that so many seemed to think he is. Prior is the only one who is close --- and he isn't there yet. And he was lights out during that game. He was doing well, until that last inning, when he was getting lit up like a Roman Candle at a flamethrower convention. And Little has seen more of the bullpen than ANY of us have and he felt that Pedro was a better option than ANY of them. Personally, I'd have stuck in Wakefield who is a pretty decent postseason pitcher (heck, with the Pirates, he OWNED Atlanta in the 1992 NLCS) and is such a HUGE change of pace from Pedro that he'd baffle the Yanks. But, I cannot fault him for sticking with the best pitcher in the game. BUT, this was the same pen that cost the Sox numerous games during the season and you never know when they would return to their usual form. Fair enough. But the combustible BK Kim was out of the picture, and like I said before, a fresh reliever is better than a clearly tired Pedro. Not necessarily. Again, I've followed the Braves for years and I've seen fresh relievers completely suck and blow games at a frightening clip while the tired starters had managed to keep the opponents in check. Whomever they get to replace him likely will not come close to matching that. Maybe not, but presuming the man they hire has seen his managerial balls drop, he'll certainly get more of a chance to find out. He will have to take a team of egomaniacs (Pedro and Manny are friggin' a pain in the BUTT to deal with) and hope to lead them to the ALCS? He won't come close. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the max 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'm a Red Sox fan, but given the choice, I'd take Kerry Wood over Pedro Martinez. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 ^Really? Kerry Wood has yet to show the ability to truly become has good as he can be. He can be to wild, and needs to learn how to manage his pitch count better. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the max 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 But, he showed a lot during the playoffs, pitching a good game in game 5 against Atlanta, and not being too bad against Florida. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kkktookmybabyaway 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'd take Wood, too, but for other reasons (and, no, not because he's white...) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'll agree about the playoffs. He looked good. It's a matter of showing that consistenty all season long. We'll have to wait and see, if that happens next season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
treble 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'd take Prior over Wood. Of course, I'd take Halladay over anyone else, but I'm biased. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dr. Tom 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Halladay? He's a good pitcher to be sure, but I'd STILL take Pedro when the pressure is on. Not I. Halladay showed himself to be a big-game pitcher this season, toiling for a team that wasn't as good as the Red Sox. He's also younger (though I do worry about his workload this season) than Pedro, so it'll be several years (barring injury) before he starts to decline. Give me Roy every time. Wood? Oh, please. Decent power pitcher --- heck, above-average --- but he is NOT the second coming of Roger Clemens and Nolan Ryan that so many seemed to think he is. Time will tell. He's still young, and only two years removed from major surgery on his arm. Prior is the only one who is close --- and he isn't there yet. Not yet, no, but I'd take him over Pedro for his potential to be better soon. And Little has seen more of the bullpen than ANY of us have and he felt that Pedro was a better option than ANY of them. He let his ace talk him out of making a move that was in the best interest of the team. That's inexcusable. I don't care how hard you want to ride Pedro's jock, Mike, but when you have a tired, struggling pitcher on the mound in a Game 7, YOU TAKE HIM OUT. It's really that simple. No hesitation. No "do you think you can get these next couple hitters?" Go out and get him or be thought of as a manager with no testicles. Personally, I'd have stuck in Wakefield ... That would have been a good call. And an infinitely better call than leaving a weary Pedro in there to take a beating. Again, I've followed the Braves for years and I've seen fresh relievers completely suck and blow games at a frightening clip while the tired starters had managed to keep the opponents in check. The Braves' pitching always seems to blow up on them in postseason. I've noticed their bullpen struggles over the years (and there were also plenty of times when their starters struggled), and I really have no way to explain it. Still, I think a quality reliever, rested, is a better gamble than a tired starter, however good the manager thinks that starter may be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'd take Prior over anyone. He's got great stuff, and his mechanics are awesome. Which will help in avoid serious arm problems in the future. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'd take Prior over anyone. He's got great stuff, and his mechanics are awesome. Which will help in avoid serious arm problems in the future. But wasn't he hurt this year? Provided he avoids injury, he can be the best pitcher out there. Beckett also has worlds of potential and is clearly a seriously clutch pitcher as well. Honestly, after seeing him in College extensively, Kris Benson (formerly of the f'n Clemson Tigers) of the Pirates could be something special if he was on a competent team. -=Mike ...Who wonders if the Rockies will call up Kip Bouknight, who has no stats worth mentioning, except that he was the winningest pitcher in S. Carolina history and the ace of the staff that was #1 in the country for huge chunks of the season about 2 years ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the max 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'd take Prior over anyone. He's got great stuff, and his mechanics are awesome. Which will help in avoid serious arm problems in the future. I would as well. I said Wood over Pedro just to disprove Mike's theory of Pedro being God, Jesus and two of the three kings rolled into one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vern Gagne 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 But wasn't he hurt this year? Provided he avoids injury, he can be the best pitcher out there. Beckett also has worlds of potential and is clearly a seriously clutch pitcher as well. He injured his shoulder after colliding with Marcus Giles at 2nd base. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KingPK 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Exactly. There's solid statistics that show Pedro's effectiveness falling off a cliff after 100+ pitches. A stat oriented manager would realize this. All right, I gotta ask: Has relying on this Billy Beane Moneyball Sabermetric crap actually resulted in winning World Championships? Why not just get some Mana-tron 3000 installed in the dugout that continually spits out stats. *Whirr* Giambi bats .263 against righties at night on odd-numbered days when the moon is in the waxing gibbous phase *click* I, for one, DON'T want a manager that has daily powows with Bill James to determine how the Royals fare against Lowe when the wind is blowing out of the east at 10.43233 MPH with a 20% chance of rain in the forecast. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted October 28, 2003 I'd take Prior over anyone. He's got great stuff, and his mechanics are awesome. Which will help in avoid serious arm problems in the future. I would as well. I said Wood over Pedro just to disprove Mike's theory of Pedro being God, Jesus and two of the three kings rolled into one. I never said Pedro was that. I said he was the best pitcher in the world right now. Which he is. He's clearly slipping and others are clearly gaining. Creating a straw man is one of the classic fallacies of debate. You should try and avoid doing it. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the max 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 It wasn't a 'straw man' as much as it was an exaggerated sarcastic joke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Has relying on this Billy Beane Moneyball Sabermetric crap actually resulted in winning World Championships? Why not just get some Mana-tron 3000 installed in the dugout that continually spits out stats. *Whirr* Giambi bats .263 against righties at night on odd-numbered days when the moon is in the waxing gibbous phase *click* Well now boys, we should win if we just go out and play with *grabs paper from machine and reads it*...love? Ok, who's been playing with the Manage-bot again?! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cartman 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 How many times has Oakland won a playoff series under Beane's "Moneyball" Theories? ...and THAT is what my Red Sox want to base their team on now? Wonderful. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JasonX 0 Report post Posted October 28, 2003 Has relying on this Billy Beane Moneyball Sabermetric crap actually resulted in winning World Championships? Why not just get some Mana-tron 3000 installed in the dugout that continually spits out stats. How many times has Oakland won a playoff series under Beane's "Moneyball" Theories? In defense of Beane's "Moneyball" theories, they did single-handedly raise Oakland from the dead and turned them from being one of the lowest payroll teams in baseball filled with scrubs and good players stuck on a loser team who had no chance in hell of ever being considered a serious contender to being a consistant post-season powerhouse who dominates the AL West, consistantly made the playoffs these last couple of years, and survived crippling defections from their roster (most notably Jason Giambi jumping ship like a cowardly thief in the night to the Yankees) that would have deepsixed any other baseball team... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest FrigidSoul Report post Posted October 28, 2003 The front runners are Bud Black(damn good pitching coach) and of course Joe Torre if Steinbrenner sends him packing. Both of whom are much better baseball minds than Little Cartman you need to shut your hole and stop hanging from Grady's nuts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
