Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler...

[Downhome 0]

The one thing I do agree with you on is the overtime. I don't think it made any sense and still don't like that it happened. But that being said it didn't take away from the match, in fact it kind of added to it.

The overtime made the entire idea of the match itself void. It was a contest to see who could get the most pinfalls in an hour, and it didn't happen. There wasn't a SINGLE pinfall or submission or ANY sort of decision the entire match.

 

There was no need for an Iron Man match, and it will forever irk the hell out of me.

[Guest Ray]

The selling is not THAT bad.

The selling sucked. Plain and simple.

 

Is it the best job of selling ever? No, but it doesn't have to be.

Selling is very important to a match.

 

I don't even know what "pointless" mat work you are speaking of.

The entire first half of the match maybe?

 

It was pointless because it meant nothing to the rest of the match. It was just Shawn slapping on restholds to kill time, then Bret no-sells all of it. If you want to see good, meaningful matwork, watch Han vs. Tamura 1/22/97 or Destroyer vs. Mascaras 7/25/74.

 

And the rest hold thing is what gets me the most, well that and the no falls thing. They were going an hour! Going into the match they knew they were going an hour. So of course they were going to use rest holds to not only conserve their own energy, but also to wear down the other guy.

"They went an hour!" is no excuse. Other wrestlers have gone an hour and done a much better job of killing time. Shawn couldn't kill time, and was totally exposed in the iron man.

 

Hell, ROCK AND TRIPLE H did a better job than Bret and Shawn.

 

And the no falls thing was one of the BEST things about the match. It was the main event of WM, the biggest show of the year. The title meant everything to Bret, it was his life. It was Shawn's dream to win it and to do so he had to go through Bret. So that belt meant so much to both guys, and they both didn't want to lose the first fall because it meant they'd be playing catch up from there. So both guys fought their asses off to not lose that first and as even the announcers constantly pointed out crucial fall.

It was unrealistic and ego-driven. Neither man wanted to job or make the other look good.

 

SS 92 better than WM12? Not just no, OH HELL NO.

Explain it then. Please point out the flaws in SS92 which make it inferior.

 

Was the selling worse? Was the matwork worse? Was the finish worse? No, no, and no.

 

Tell me why the awful iron man was better.

 

The Ironman match IS a classic

Not even close.

[Downhome 0]

...Destroyer vs. Mascaras 7/25/74.

I can back you up on that one, as I LOVE that match. I have it on my computer, and it's just great.

 

Hell, ROCK AND TRIPLE H did a better job than Bret and Shawn.

 

OMG, I agree with you again. I am MUCH more of a fan of that match over the Bret/Shawn encounter.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Perosnally, I prefer the screwjob match(pre-ending) to WM12, let alone SS92.

[Guest Ray]

I can back you up on that one, as I LOVE that match. I have it on my computer, and it's just great.

Indeed!

 

Did you mark out when Destoryer outmaneuvered Mascaras, then pointed to his head with that "I got you" look?!

 

OMG, I agree with you again. I am MUCH more of a fan of that match over the Bret/Shawn encounter.

They say great minds think alike...

[4hartthreat 0]

The selling sucked. Plain and simple.

 

Hmm, how do I respond to this utterly amazing use of facts and examples? Let's try..... No it didn't. Easy enough.

 

It was pointless because it meant nothing to the rest of the match. It was just Shawn slapping on restholds to kill time, then Bret no-sells all of it. If you want to see good, meaningful matwork, watch Han vs. Tamura 1/22/97 or Destroyer vs. Mascaras 7/25/74.

 

Ah, this is one of those japanese fetish things. If it ain't from Japan then how could it be good? Since I assume you'd object to me calling it a U.S. classic as well, let's keep things in the ol' U S of A shall we?

 

Hell, ROCK AND TRIPLE H did a better job than Bret and Shawn.

 

Yes and this would make sense because Rocky and Trips are MUCH better workers than Shawn and Bret.... Seriously, I lose some respect for people when I see them say this. If punching and kicking each other in the ring and into the crowd is a better way to use an hour, then yeah I guess Rocky and Hunter did have a better match than Bret-HBK. So many people get suckered in by the ridiculous amount of falls in that match that I guess they just don't notice all the crap surrounding it. I'd also like to point out that they also used a lot of rest holds and since that isn't really their thing, they looked really pathetic. I mean some of them rank right up there with one of my favorites (also seen in this match) Rock's Sharpshooter.

 

It was unrealistic and ego-driven. Neither man wanted to job or make the other look good.

 

That would be such a cop-out IF it even made sense here. But it does not. It has been well documented that Bret and Shawn's problems didn't start until AFTER this match. They had nothing against each other going into this match. And as for the realism. The way they built up the match besides the shawn's dream vs. Bret's NEED to be champion was by showing how hard they were training in preparation for the match.

 

Tell me why the awful iron man was better.

 

I guess I'll just steal a line from you. It just was. Plain and simple.

[chaosrage 0]

So if Ray doesn't like him it doesn't make him a bad wrestler yet if you do like him it DOES make him a good wrestler

 

Glad we cleared THAT one up

 

One last time, it's not me, it's MOST people. That *means* he's doing his job of entertaining people.

 

Want to get anymore specific? find me a Rey match where his selling is as bad as RVD's was at Summerslam last year

 

Since the only thing people bitched about was RVD doing a cartwheel, any of Rey/Juvi from WCW. Just pick one.

 

So why have ratings gone down on shows RVD main evented?

 

Why does Vince McMahon draw in more ratings than anyone else in the company? He's got the most focus, and RVD never has any focus. He may main event a couple shows, but he's FAR from a main eventer. Most of the people on the board were expecting the ladder match to be 5 minutes with a run in. Can you tell me with a straight face that if they did stuff with him, you don't think he would be a huge draw?

 

So people never cheer during Hogans matches or enjoy the Hulk up?

 

People cheer for for Hogan's matches because of his character.

[chaosrage 0]

The overtime made the entire idea of the match itself void. It was a contest to see who could get the most pinfalls in an hour, and it didn't happen. There wasn't a SINGLE pinfall or submission or ANY sort of decision the entire match.

 

There was no need for an Iron Man match, and it will forever irk the hell out of me.

It was a contest to see who was an ironman, who had the stamina to last for 60 minutes. They both went the distance proving that they were both ironmen, that's the whole reason behind no falls and overtime. Although Bret probably only went in with the idea to stay alive, so he didn't think he had to beat him. Which is why he lost. However both looked great after it. Compare that to something like Rock/HHH where they were falling asleep in sleepers and getting pinned with DDTs half way through.

 

If it wasn't for the ironman gimmick, they wouldn't have a reason to not go full speed in the beginning instead of playing it cautious and trying to wear each other down. It's different from other matches, as it tries to be more real, that's why so many people love it. That's why Bret and Shawn say it's one of their greatest matches ever. And that's why Angle says it's the greatest match he's ever seen.

[Downhome 0]

The match would have been a lot better had they not placed the "gimmick" around it. Had it just been a match that went an hour or more, and then FINALLY one of them beat the other guy, then it would have been a much better match, and I'd be able to forgive them for the subpar work throughout the match.

 

A great "iron man" match is one which you can't take your eyes away from it, you care for every move that happens, and I simply didn't care for most of THIS one.

 

The overtime ruined everything, it made the idea of the match void, it canceled out what it should have been about, it was pointless.

 

There is no use discussing this, because my opinion will never change on it, it just wasn't a good match to me, and for that reason to me, it's the most overrated match of all time...period.

[chaosrage 0]

The selling is not THAT bad.

The selling sucked. Plain and simple.

::hands you a prize::

 

Bret sold fine while Shawn was working on him. After he was in control for 5 minutes, he stopped selling it simply because his arm wasn't worked on for awhile. Just like how Bret worked on HBK's neck for the first 20 minutes, but when he took the huge back bump to the floor, he changed to his back for the rest of the match.

[chaosrage 0]

There is no use discussing this, because my opinion will never change on it, it just wasn't a good match to me, and for that reason to me, it's the most overrated match of all time...period.

That's cool man. I was just saying why I thought it was good. Not trying to change your opinion.

[Guest Ray]

Hmm, how do I respond to this utterly amazing use of facts and examples? Let's try..... No it didn't. Easy enough.

You must be blind if you think that match had good selling. Did you miss the no-sell of all the arm work Shawn did? Bret shakes it off and ignores it for the rest of the match.

 

Ah, this is one of those japanese fetish things. If it ain't from Japan then how could it be good? Since I assume you'd object to me calling it a U.S. classic as well, let's keep things in the ol' U S of A shall we?

 

It's not a "japanese fetish thing", it's a good wrestling thing. Wrestling is wrestling, no matter where it's from. I gave you to examples of good matwork. I guess you don't want to debate the superiority of those matches.

 

My favorite wrestler happens to be STEVE AUSTIN, so don't give me this "you only like Japan" crap.

 

Yes and this would make sense because Rocky and Trips are MUCH better workers than Shawn and Bret....

It doesn't matter that Shawn and Bret are "better workers." They clearly had an inferior match. But you won't even consider it, because you blindly think that Rock and Triple H couldn't possibly have a better match.

 

If punching and kicking each other in the ring and into the crowd is a better way to use an hour, then yeah I guess Rocky and Hunter did have a better match than Bret-HBK.

And here you show that you don't know what you're talking about. Rock and HHH did more than "punch and kick" each other for an hour. The variety of offense they used was much better than Shawn's crappy restholds. Even if they only did "punch kick", that alone wouldn't make it an inferior match.

 

So many people get suckered in by the ridiculous amount of falls in that match that I guess they just don't notice all the crap surrounding it.

The amount of falls wasn't ridiculous. What "crap" surrounding it are you referring to?

 

I'd also like to point out that they also used a lot of rest holds and since that isn't really their thing, they looked really pathetic.

Their "rest holds" were better than Bret/Shawn's. Rock and HHH were able to keep things interesting with their pacing. Bret and Shawn didn't.

 

That would be such a cop-out IF it even made sense here. But it does not. It has been well documented that Bret and Shawn's problems didn't start until AFTER this match. They had nothing against each other going into this match.

No, you're wrong. I guess you didn't notice how they didn't even try to make the other man look good in this match.

 

From the Bret Hart shoot interview:

 

- Bret feels that Shawn and the Clique masterminded the Bret -> Backlund -> Diesel switches in 1994, as part of their ongoing campaign to sabotage anything near the main event that wasn’t in their interest.

 

- Bret had no problems dropping the title to Shawn, but he DID have a problem with being treated like a lame duck in the months leading up to Wrestlemania, doing jobs for Diesel & Undertaker every night while Shawn got 3 months off for a worked injury.

 

- Bret specifically thinks that the way the Iron Man match was set up, it was designed to cut him off at the knees as the top guy. Shawn’s ego problem really started at this point, as he began plotting out how he’d do programs with all the Clique members until Vince overruled him. Bret thinks Shawn had problems seperating what was right for Shawn from what was right for business, and he points out the drop in ratings following Shawn’s title win as support. Bret thinks Shawn sandbagged him throughout the match (didn’t cooperate with slams).

 

I guess I'll just steal a line from you. It just was. Plain and simple.

What a brilliant debater you are. I'm DYING to see you explain the flaws in SS92.

 

That's why Bret and Shawn say it's one of their greatest matches ever. And that's why Angle says it's the greatest match he's ever seen.

If Kurt Angle said Nash vs. Mable was the best match ever, would that make it true?

Edited November 9, 2003 by Ray

[KTID 0]

*gives chaosrage and 4hartthreat round of applause*

[Guest Ray]

*gives chaosrage and 4hartthreat round of applause*

You applaud when people don't know what the hell they're talking about?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

*gives chaosrage and 4hartthreat round of applause*

Why?

 

Just curious.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

And that's why Angle says it's the greatest match he's ever seen.

 

Angle is an idiot. He also thinks that he is the greatest wrestler ever or something equally as insane, and he believes that him vs. Benoit was the best match ever.

 

He is a mark, for himself and for Bret Hart.

[Slayer 0]

It is of my opinion that the Bret-Shawn Ironman Match, aka RestHoldMania, blew for pretty much all the reasons already said

 

Also I read, somewhere in this thread, someone saying that a wrestler's main job is to draw money, and if that's how we define a great wrestler, then Flair definitely pulled his weight

[Guest MikeSC]

The Ironman match IS a classic.

 

And the term classic is bastardized a little more.

 

The selling is not THAT bad. Is it the best job of selling ever? No, but it doesn't have to be.

 

I don't even know what "pointless" mat work you are speaking of.

 

And the rest hold thing is what gets me the most, well that and the no falls thing. They were going an hour! Going into the match they knew they were going an hour. So of course they were going to use rest holds to not only conserve their own energy, but also to wear down the other guy.

 

Ironically, HHH and Rock managed to avoid rest holds. Of course, it was also a significantly better match.

 

And the no falls thing was one of the BEST things about the match.

 

It KILLED the match. Bret wasn't going to give Shawn anything, and vice versa, so we got, easily, the WORST ironman match I've ever seen. The much-criticized Angle v Lesnar match blows this out of the water.

 

It was the main event of WM, the biggest show of the year. The title meant everything to Bret, it was his life. It was Shawn's dream to win it and to do so he had to go through Bret. So that belt meant so much to both guys, and they both didn't want to lose the first fall because it meant they'd be playing catch up from there. So both guys fought their asses off to not lose that first and as even the announcers constantly pointed out crucial fall.

 

Yet they did one bang-up job of forgetting to include any actual SUSPENSE in the match. Even the finish of regulation was hardly riveting.

 

The one thing I do agree with you on is the overtime. I don't think it made any sense and still don't like that it happened. But that being said it didn't take away from the match, in fact it kind of added to it. Going back to the how much the title meant to both guys thing, it took two superkicks to keep Bret down, because he did not want to lose his title on the biggest show of the year.

 

SS 92 better than WM12? Not just no, OH HELL NO.

 

Hart then immediately left after the match. Way to sell the beating.

 

And Survivor Series OWNED this match.

-=Mike

[Guest MikeSC]

The selling sucked. Plain and simple.

 

Hmm, how do I respond to this utterly amazing use of facts and examples? Let's try..... No it didn't. Easy enough.

 

Umm, the holds didn't seem to hurt either guy.

 

It was pointless because it meant nothing to the rest of the match. It was just Shawn slapping on restholds to kill time, then Bret no-sells all of it. If you want to see good, meaningful matwork, watch Han vs. Tamura 1/22/97 or Destroyer vs. Mascaras 7/25/74.

 

Ah, this is one of those japanese fetish things. If it ain't from Japan then how could it be good? Since I assume you'd object to me calling it a U.S. classic as well, let's keep things in the ol' U S of A shall we?

 

I am hardly a Japanese fan --- but he provided examples.

 

Hell, ROCK AND TRIPLE H did a better job than Bret and Shawn.

 

Yes and this would make sense because Rocky and Trips are MUCH better workers than Shawn and Bret....

 

The fact that they put on a better match is more of an insult to Bret and Shawn who SHOULD have been able to blow them out of the water (though Rock is hella-underrated).

 

Seriously, I lose some respect for people when I see them say this. If punching and kicking each other in the ring and into the crowd is a better way to use an hour, then yeah I guess Rocky and Hunter did have a better match than Bret-HBK.

 

They sold better. They used a little psychology. The match was ENTERTAINING. I'd rather see punches and kicks than headlocks and armbars that go nowhere.

 

So many people get suckered in by the ridiculous amount of falls in that match that I guess they just don't notice all the crap surrounding it.

 

Like you getting suckered into thinking that HBK v Hart was great because it is the only ironman match in memory that had no falls in an hour?

 

I'd also like to point out that they also used a lot of rest holds

 

I don't really remember any noticeable restholds.

 

and since that isn't really their thing, they looked really pathetic. I mean some of them rank right up there with one of my favorites (also seen in this match) Rock's Sharpshooter.

 

The Sharpshooter isn't a resthold.

 

It was unrealistic and ego-driven. Neither man wanted to job or make the other look good.

 

That would be such a cop-out IF it even made sense here.

 

Umm, how does it NOT?

 

But it does not. It has been well documented that Bret and Shawn's problems didn't start until AFTER this match. They had nothing against each other going into this match.

 

Bret was being supplanted by Shawn and it's not like this opinion of what happened is held by a tiny minority.

 

And as for the realism. The way they built up the match besides the shawn's dream vs. Bret's NEED to be champion was by showing how hard they were training in preparation for the match.

 

Yet they traded restholds with no real point to them for the majority of the match. The match was DULL. EASILY the worst Ironman match I've ever seen.

 

Tell me why the awful iron man was better.

 

I guess I'll just steal a line from you. It just was. Plain and simple.

 

Well, you're free to your opinion. Few others hold it.

-=Mike

[chaosrage 0]

Hmm, how do I respond to this utterly amazing use of facts and examples? Let's try..... No it didn't. Easy enough.

You must be blind if you think that match had good selling. Did you miss the no-sell of all the arm work Shawn did? Bret shakes it off and ignores it for the rest of the match.

Did you miss that Shawn doesn't attack the arm for the rest of the match? Well, whaddaya know, that just might be a sign that the match isn't about Bret having a weak arm. Shawn tried to brutally attack his arm and it failed. Bret recovered. You're supposed to see this as Shawn having no chance at all. But as it turns out, his best strategy was to keep a ground attack which Bret wasn't expecting going into the ironman, and to preserve his energy. To hold back on flying around the ring UNTIL bret was tired out. Bret may have had better wrestling skills or maybe not but Shawn had more stamina and was able to outsmart him to win. A lot of people, you for one, miss the psychology of the match or you're not paying close enough attention. I don't know why. It's pretty obvious. Just listen to what the announcers are saying and open your eyes.

 

Bullshit excuse alert!

 

It's not a "japanese fetish thing", it's a good wrestling thing. Wrestling is wrestling, no matter where it's from. I gave you to examples of good matwork. I guess you don't want to debate the superiority of those matches.

 

God, I think you're killing brain cells.

 

It's a US board. The title is World Wrestling Entertainment. We're in America. I think it goes without saying. Stick to US. Pulling matches out probably 4 or 5 people here have seen isn't helping anything.

 

Their "rest holds" were better than Bret/Shawn's. Rock and HHH were able to keep things interesting with their pacing. Bret and Shawn didn't.

 

Rock and HHH were able to able to have a normal match, mix it with 30 minutes of brawling, add a LOT of sleepers, throw in a shitty looking sharpshooter and a shitty looking figure four, and a few armbars, and trick a few people into thinking it was a good match. That's about it.

 

If Kurt Angle said Nash vs. Mable was the best match ever, would that make it true?

 

Kurt Angle is a great wrestler (well you don't think so, but I wasn't responding to you) so it makes sense that he would have an appreciation for great wrestling. He wouldn't say Nash vs Mable was the best match ever. That doesn't make what he says true, but it does make you look retarded when you say things like "durrr HBK/Bret clearly was an inferior match".

[chaosrage 0]

*gives chaosrage and 4hartthreat round of applause*

[chaosrage 0]

Ironically, HHH and Rock managed to avoid rest holds. Of course, it was also a significantly better match.

Were you like asleep for most of the match? You know, the sleeper went from being a nice wear down move to a REAL time waster about the fifth time it was used in ten minutes.

[Tawren 0]

Bullshit excuse alert!

 

It's not a "japanese fetish thing", it's a good wrestling thing. Wrestling is wrestling, no matter where it's from. I gave you to examples of good matwork. I guess you don't want to debate the superiority of those matches.

 

God, I think you're killing brain cells.

 

It's a US board. The title is World Wrestling Entertainment. We're in America. I think it goes without saying. Stick to US. Pulling matches out probably 4 or 5 people here have seen isn't helping anything.

How fucking stupid are you? Just because it happened in another country means it doesn't count? The fact is, the HBK/Hart iron-man sucked. Go watch it again. Objectively. It sucks.

[Guest Ray]

Did you miss that Shawn doesn't attack the arm for the rest of the match? Well, whaddaya know, that just might be a sign that the match isn't about Bret having a weak arm. Shawn tried to brutally attack his arm and it failed. Bret recovered.

Excuse for poor selling. Next...

 

You're supposed to see this as Shawn having no chance at all. But as it turns out, his best strategy was to keep a ground attack which Bret wasn't expecting going into the ironman, and to preserve his energy. To hold back on flying around the ring UNTIL bret was tired out. Bret may have had better wrestling skills or maybe not but Shawn had more stamina and was able to outsmart him to win. A lot of people, you for one, miss the psychology of the match or you're not paying close enough attention.

Even if one "gets" the psychology, it's still a boring, no-selling match filled with restholds.

 

Maybe I should just use your "RVD is a good wrestler" logic and say this match sucked because it didn't entertain me.

 

Just listen to what the announcers are saying and open your eyes.

As if listening to the announcers could make the match good?

 

God, I think you're killing brain cells.

As if you had cells to lose...

 

It's a US board. The title is World Wrestling Entertainment. We're in America. I think it goes without saying. Stick to US. Pulling matches out probably 4 or 5 people here have seen isn't helping anything.

Yes, because if you haven't heard of the matches, they must suck.

 

Rock and HHH were able to able to have a normal match, mix it with 30 minutes of brawling, add a LOT of sleepers, throw in a shitty looking sharpshooter and a shitty looking figure four, and a few armbars, and trick a few people into thinking it was a good match. That's about it.

And those "shitty" Rock-HHH moves were better than the BORING Shawn Michaels moves.

 

I've seen good matwork. Bret-Shawn wasn't it.

 

Kurt Angle is a great wrestler

No he isn't.

 

(well you don't think so, but I wasn't responding to you)

Then why did you use my quote?

 

so it makes sense that he would have an appreciation for great wrestling.

He obviously doesn't. Read the last Bionic Redneck post.

 

He wouldn't say Nash vs Mable was the best match ever.

Do you even know what an analogy is?

 

If he said the iron man was the best match ever, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

The point remains, Angle saying something does NOT make it true.

 

That doesn't make what he says true, but it does make you look retarded when you say things like "durrr HBK/Bret clearly was an inferior match".

How exactly is that statement "retarded" ?

 

Again, let's use YOUR wonderful RVD logic. Shawn-Bret wasn't entertaining. Rock-HHH was. So using YOUR logic, Rock-HHH > Bret-Shawn.

 

Aren't you so glad you used that wonderful logic?

 

"durr...RVD is a good wrestler because he entertains me durr"

[4hartthreat 0]

My favorite wrestler happens to be STEVE AUSTIN

 

Oh, well that explains it all. You're an idiot.

 

Just kidding. But in all seriousness, if Austin is what you consider to be the epitome of the wrestling world, then we are totally different people. Don't get me wrong I think over his career he was good and on SOME occasions was even great, but to even mention him when considering the best of the best is just insane to me. When he was good he was really good, but when he's bad he's REALLY bad, I'm talking Nathan Jones vs. T. L. Hopper bad.

 

 

And about the using Japanese matches for examples of good selling thing. Maybe those matches you named were unbelieveable and the selling is some of the best ever. I don't know because I haven't seen them. But that's the point. Why use matches that the majority of the people reading the thread probably have never seen? I wasn't dissing those matches, I just don't think you should use them to try and make a point when most haven't seen them and thus your point goes unmade anyway.

[chaosrage 0]

How fucking stupid are you? Just because it happened in another country means it doesn't count?

I believe what I said was not that it didn't count, but hardly anyone here had probably seen them.

 

The fact is, the HBK/Hart iron-man sucked. Go watch it again.

 

Yeah, you seem real observant and bright.

[Guest Ray]

But in all seriousness, if Austin is what you consider to be the epitome of the wrestling world, then we are totally different people. Don't get me wrong I think over his career he was good and on SOME occasions was even great, but to even mention him when considering the best of the best is just insane to me.

If you'll notice, I said favorite.

 

Hopefully I won't have to make a long, detailed post explaining the difference between "best" and "favorite."

 

Austin on his best day was better than most US workers.

 

And about the using Japanese matches for examples of good selling thing. Maybe those matches you named were unbelieveable and the selling is some of the best ever.

Those were examples of matwork. Just sayin'...

 

I don't know because I haven't seen them. But that's the point. Why use matches that the majority of the people reading the thread probably have never seen? I wasn't dissing those matches, I just don't think you should use them to try and make a point when most haven't seen them and thus your point goes unmade anyway.

Well, any serious wrestling fan should at least know of them. Destroyer-Mascaras is widely regarded as one of the best matches of the 70's. Han-Tamura is considered one of the best shoot style matches ever.

 

Not my job to know what matches other people have seen.

[chaosrage 0]

Excuse for poor selling. Next...

 

Or, reasons why the selling isn't poor. They sell as much as they need to.

 

Even if one "gets" the psychology, it's still a boring, no-selling match filled with restholds.

 

Only the first 20 minutes is filled with "restholds". About 10 minutes in the middle of Rock/HHH is nothing but actual restholds. HHH is literally trying to put Rock to sleep for 10 minutes. In HBK/Hart, they're using wear down holds in the beginning because they're telling the story of them wrestling cautious and trying not to make a mistake. They're building momentum through the match. Rock/HHH has no momentum. It just drags and then stalls.

 

Maybe I should just use your "RVD is a good wrestler" logic and say this match sucked because it didn't entertain me.

 

Actually, you can't, heh. I explained so many more times than I ever should have to that it wasn't about you or me. It doesn't matter what you or I think, it matters what he does. However that IS *really* what you've been saying all along about the ironman. All your arguments amount to is that you don't like it.

 

As if listening to the announcers could make the match good?

 

If you don't understand what the match is trying to do, then of course. They'll explain it to you and walk you through it.

 

As if you had cells to lose...

 

I had some before I came in this thread.

 

Yes, because if you haven't heard of the matches, they must suck.

 

When did I say they sucked?

 

And those "shitty" Rock-HHH moves were better than the BORING Shawn Michaels moves.

 

I don't think so. See, once again, this is funny, you can go on and on about how being entertaining isn't a legitamate reason for something being good, and look at this. You're saying that being boring is a legitamate reason for it being bad. Can you see the contradiction there? It's not an opinion that his sharpshooter is shitty. He doesn't do it right. It doesn't look like it hurts or that they can't get out of it. It's the same thing with the figure four.

 

I've seen good matwork. Bret-Shawn wasn't it.

 

Yes it was.

 

Then why did you use my quote?

 

I didn't. I quoted Downhome.

 

He obviously doesn't. Read the last Bionic Redneck post.

 

He said he really loved his match with Benoit. It was great. What's the problem? He's a mark for Bret. Wasn't Bret a great wrestler? 99% of the board is a mark for Bret.

 

Do you even know what an analogy is?

 

Your analogy doesn't work because it couldn't happen. So your argument there is meaningless to me, or anyone with half a mind reading this.

 

If he said the iron man was the best match ever, he obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

Because you say so, right?

 

The point remains, Angle saying something does NOT make it true.

 

This proves you're a complete idiot. Here's the line right below it, "That doesn't make what he says true"

 

How exactly is that statement "retarded" ?

 

Again, let's use YOUR wonderful RVD logic. Shawn-Bret wasn't entertaining. Rock-HHH was. So using YOUR logic, Rock-HHH > Bret-Shawn.

 

My logic is Shawn/Bret was entertaining. Rock/HHH was just a long brawl with some sleepers and chinlocks.

 

Aren't you so glad you used that wonderful logic?

 

Yep. Because putting words in my mouth is the best way to win any argument.

[Guest Ray]

Or, reasons why the selling isn't poor. They sell as much as they need to.

Maybe in your mind that was enough selling. Not mine.

 

Only the first 20 minutes is filled with "restholds". About 10 minutes in the middle of Rock/HHH is nothing but actual restholds.

You just admitted that one match has more restholds than the other. Thanks.

 

In HBK/Hart, they're using wear down holds in the beginning because they're telling the story of them wrestling cautious and trying not to make a mistake. They're building momentum through the match.

And they're doing it with crappy matwork.

 

Rock/HHH has no momentum. It just drags and then stalls.

According to you. I certainly don't see it that way.

 

Actually, you can't, heh. I explained so many more times than I ever should have to that it wasn't about you or me. It doesn't matter what you or I think, it matters what he does.

And what "he does" is crap. Any objective thinker can figure this out. All you can say is "he entertains people so he's a good wrestler."

 

However that IS *really* what you've been saying all along about the ironman. All your arguments amount to is that you don't like it.

Yeah. I don't like shitty selling and bad matwork. Correct.

 

If you don't understand what the match is trying to do, then of course. They'll explain it to you and walk you through it.

Of lord...

 

As if WWE announcers are experts at objective wrestling analysis.

 

When did I say they sucked?

I didn't say that you said they sucked.

 

I don't think so. See, once again, this is funny, you can go on and on about how being entertaining isn't a legitamate reason for something being good, and look at this. You're saying that being boring is a legitamate reason for it being bad. Can you see the contradiction there?

No. The objective reasons of why the match was bad were already stated. Being boring is just icing on the cake. Consider it the opposite of your "he's entertaining so he must be good" logic.

 

It's not an opinion that his sharpshooter is shitty. He doesn't do it right. It doesn't look like it hurts or that they can't get out of it. It's the same thing with the figure four.

Shawn's matwork certainly didn't look too devastating either. If you'd seen some good matwork, you might know this.

 

Yes it was.

Maybe to a Shawn mark who's only seen crappy WWE matches. The matwork of Han-Tamura absolutely destroys it. It's not possible to think Shawn's matwork was good after comparing the two matches, or comparing to any other match with truly good matwork.

 

I didn't. I quoted Downhome.

Jesus Christ, you can't even read your own fucking post.

 

He said he really loved his match with Benoit. It was great. What's the problem? He's a mark for Bret. Wasn't Bret a great wrestler? 99% of the board is a mark for Bret.

Did you even read HIS post? BR says Angle thought his match with Benoit was the best ever, which is proof that he doesnt know what he's talking about.

 

Your analogy doesn't work because it couldn't happen.

Why couldn't it happen? Angle thinking the iron man was one of the best ever is just as dumb.

 

Because you say so, right?

Because I've seen plenty of wrestling and understand how to analyze something maybe? ANYONE with the slightest bit of analytical skills would know that the iron man isn't even close to being "the best match ever."

 

This proves you're a complete idiot. Here's the line right below it, "That doesn't make what he says true"

Great. I'm right then. Thanks for admitting that I'm right.

 

My logic is Shawn/Bret was entertaining.

It wasn't.

 

Rock/HHH was just a long brawl with some sleepers and chinlocks.

And it was far more interesting and had far better booking.

 

Yep. Because putting words in my mouth is the best way to win any argument.

No, using your own dumb logic against you is.

 

Say it again, why don't you... "RVD is a good wrestler because he's entertaining!"

[Guest MikeSC]

Hmm, how do I respond to this utterly amazing use of facts and examples? Let's try..... No it didn't. Easy enough.

You must be blind if you think that match had good selling. Did you miss the no-sell of all the arm work Shawn did? Bret shakes it off and ignores it for the rest of the match.

Did you miss that Shawn doesn't attack the arm for the rest of the match? Well, whaddaya know, that just might be a sign that the match isn't about Bret having a weak arm.

 

So they wasted a huge chunk of time?

 

Shawn tried to brutally attack his arm and it failed.  Bret recovered.  You're supposed to see this as Shawn having no chance at all.  But as it turns out, his best strategy was to keep a ground attack which Bret wasn't expecting going into the ironman, and to preserve his energy.  To hold back on flying around the ring UNTIL bret was tired out.  Bret may have had better wrestling skills or maybe not but Shawn had more stamina and was able to outsmart him to win.  A lot of people, you for one, miss the psychology of the match or you're not paying close enough attention.  I don't know why.

 

Because he recognizes that the booking was due to Bret and Shawn being dicks and nothing else.

 

It's pretty obvious.  Just listen to what the announcers are saying and open your eyes.

 

Hmm, the announcers called Steiner v Hunter at Rumble physically intense and a good match.

 

I guess it was now.

 

Bullshit excuse alert!

 

It's not a "japanese fetish thing", it's a good wrestling thing. Wrestling is wrestling, no matter where it's from. I gave you to examples of good matwork. I guess you don't want to debate the superiority of those matches.

 

God, I think you're killing brain cells.

 

It's a US board. The title is World Wrestling Entertainment. We're in America. I think it goes without saying. Stick to US. Pulling matches out probably 4 or 5 people here have seen isn't helping anything.

 

No different then inventing psychology that wasn't there.

 

Their "rest holds" were better than Bret/Shawn's. Rock and HHH were able to keep things interesting with their pacing. Bret and Shawn didn't.

 

Rock and HHH were able to able to have a normal match, mix it with 30 minutes of brawling, add a LOT of sleepers, throw in a shitty looking sharpshooter and a shitty looking figure four, and a few armbars, and trick a few people into thinking it was a good match. That's about it.

 

Their "shitty-looking" holds blew the restholds from WM12 out of the water. Again, I never openly noticed the restholds in Rock v HHH. You couldn't help but notice them with Shawn v Bret.

 

If Kurt Angle said Nash vs. Mable was the best match ever, would that make it true?

 

Kurt Angle is a great wrestler (well you don't think so, but I wasn't responding to you) so it makes sense that he would have an appreciation for great wrestling. He wouldn't say Nash vs Mable was the best match ever. That doesn't make what he says true, but it does make you look retarded when you say things like "durrr HBK/Bret clearly was an inferior match".

 

Kurt said that Shane had the hardest punches in the business.

-=Mike