Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler...

[Guest Rob Edwards]

One last time, it's not me, it's MOST people. That *means* he's doing his job of entertaining people.

 

Have you been working on a petition or something? I'd say a lot more people find Austin entertaining than they do RVD

 

Since the only thing people bitched about was RVD doing a cartwheel, any of Rey/Juvi from WCW. Just pick one.

 

Well whoever you were reading was putting a positive spin on things, how about not selling an arm AT ALL that Benoit had been working on the whole match? Unless the story is that Rob had a bionic arm that cheapens Benoit's offence. As does the lazy sell of the crossface, he SHOULD have been fighting like mad to get out with it, instead he just looked stoned. Granted he probably WAS stoned but thats not the point

 

Why does Vince McMahon draw in more ratings than anyone else in the company? He's got the most focus, and RVD never has any focus. He may main event a couple shows, but he's FAR from a main eventer. Most of the people on the board were expecting the ladder match to be 5 minutes with a run in. Can you tell me with a straight face that if they did stuff with him, you don't think he would be a huge draw?

 

Yes because he can do two things....cocky and stoned, now for a smaller promotion like ECW thats fine but for drawing the mainstream audience WWE wants it won't work. He's not strong on the mic and neither can he sell dramatically and inject a sense of importance into his matches, the only way to book it would be to make every match a spot filled gimmick affair to stop them sucking, when only Eddie, Benoit (on Raw not SS) and Jericho are capable of getting him to good standard wrestling matches he's got problems. Especially with the Raw roster, can you imagine how bad a 20-30 minute RVD Vs Goldberg/Kane/HHH/Batista/Michaels match would be?

 

and I'm talking 2001, when he WAS pushed strongly

 

People cheer for for Hogan's matches because of his character.

 

No they don't they cheer for the way it's set up and the importance built into them, Hogan matches (outside Hansen and Savage) were never great from a realistic work perspective but he had the crowd in the palm of his hand from a "I'm the good guy, rally behind me and I might beat this evil bastard" , marks were just glued to his matches back in his heyday, ok so they havn't stood the test of time from a workrate perspective for the most part but they drew MONSTER money at the time, and entertained the hell out of people. Not an argument I'd personally use to have him inducted to a workrate HOF but it's you who's saying being entertaining makes you a god

[Austin3164life 0]

Bret/Shawn wasn't even the match-of-the-year that year, but of course it won that award. Austin/Hart from Survivor Series smokes that match like a Salem Menthol. Watch the first five minutes of that match, and watch how both men put on one of the best US matches of the ninetees. Shawn/Bret is not even close to what the marks say it is. Only the last 10-12 minutes were pretty good.

[Guest Megatron]

Bret/Shawn wasn't even the match-of-the-year that year, but of course it won that award. Austin/Hart from Survivor Series smokes that match like a Salem Menthol.

Doesn't the year-in-review cover November-October? If so, then they were both in seperate years.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Another thing I love about Flair, he would SELL his opponent's offense. Put him in a headlock, an armbar, etc., he'd scream like a motherfucker as if a dog had bit him in the crotch!

[Guest Megatron]

To all the people who keep saying that HHH/Rock>Bret/HBK, I have something to add to that. Of course it was better. It happened about 4 years after Bret/HBK. It happened in a different era of wrestling when matches are generally considered to be more exciting. Rock/HHH also had the advantage of being able to view the previous match and see what worked and what didn't. They could then change their approach accordingly. Plus, the 4 men involved had different syles that complemented the era when they were at their primes. It's like comparing apples to oranges.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

The selling in the Iron man match wasn't good. Hell, even Scott Keith could see that and he's a fat Bret Hart mark who doesn't have a fucking clue what he is talking about.

 

Basically Shawn works the arm, Bret works the neck. Neither sell. So either a) they chose to move on or b) they forgot/chose to no-sell. Either way, it was a huge waste of time and it was boring with it.

 

There is pointless, unfoccused matwork that doesn't go anywhere. Then there is the fact that that the two wrestlers aren't even co-operating with each other at some points, and are both trying to make the other look bad. The none existent workrate of the first half hour, the no falls in the first hour, the lack of any real heat until the last 15 minutes, the crappy overtime finish, Bret/Shawn walking around 30 seconds later apparently forgetting that they have supposedly just wrestled for over an hour............Bad match.

 

Even if the selling was good, this still wouldn't be a good match. It's boring and annoying.

 

To all the people who keep saying that HHH/Rock>Bret/HBK, I have something to add to that. Of course it was better. It happened about 4 years after Bret/HBK. It happened in a different era of wrestling when matches are generally considered to be more exciting. Rock/HHH also had the advantage of being able to view the previous match and see what worked and what didn't. They could then change their approach accordingly. Plus, the 4 men involved had different syles that complemented the era when they were at their primes. It's like comparing apples to oranges

 

Wha?!!!!

 

Wrestling is wrestling. Whatever style (except maybe that shoot style stuff), whatever era...the basic components of the match are the same. And then, by your logic, shouldn't Angle-Lesnar Iron Man have been even better (or at least good)?

 

Speaking of Angle: He isn't a great wrestler. He is the most overrated wrestler in history. For instance, how many of you people will vote Angle as one of the best in-ring performers of 2003? I'm guessing a lot. Despite the fact that he has done NOTHING. Good match with Benoit (Rumble) aside, he has had a good match with Taker. That's it. He has had 4 dissapointing matches with Brock Lesnar, one of which (Iron Man) was pure garbage that exposed them both. He had a rotten feud with John Cena and an average match, and he was injured for at least 3 months. So fucking overrated.

[Guest Megatron]

Wrestling is wrestling. Whatever style (except maybe that shoot style stuff), whatever era...the basic components of the match are the same. And then, by your logic, shouldn't Angle-Lesnar Iron Man have been even better (or at least good)?

The point I was making is that Bret/HBK was good according to 1996 standards while HHH/Rock was good according to Attitude era standards. If I went by your logic, then ALL matches are the same, right? And Angle/Lesnar was watchable. I'm so tired of people on this board saying that "such and such is crap because I say it is." It's like I always say: "Opinions are like assholes; everybody's got one." Opinions are NOT fact. We could go back and forth on this all day.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

He has had 4 dissapointing matches with Brock Lesnar

 

Hey I thought those matches were pretty damn good. I can't say much about the Iron Man match because it wasn't shown in its entirety. Pretty much everybody on here thought their WM bout was the best, but I disagree as I thought the SS rematch was much better because Angle didn't have to be protected and could perform at 100% and I always thought that face Angle / heel Lesnar > heel Angle / face Lesnar.

[chaosrage 0]

Or, reasons why the selling isn't poor. They sell as much as they need to.

Maybe in your mind that was enough selling. Not mine.

It was enough for the story they were telling.

 

You just admitted that one match has more restholds than the other. Thanks.

 

I had restholds in quotes. They weren't restholds because they weren't RESTING in them. Every hold had a quick escape and reversal.

 

And they're doing it with crappy matwork.

 

Prove it. What's better about the matwork in HHH/Rock?

 

According to you. I certainly don't see it that way.

 

Well you don't see it. I don't see how people don't like WM12. But you don't see me going around saying Bret/Shawn was clearly a better match.

 

And what "he does" is crap. Any objective thinker can figure this out. All you can say is "he entertains people so he's a good wrestler."

 

He does spotfests. Because you don't like them doesn't make them bad.

 

However that IS *really* what you've been saying all along about the ironman. All your arguments amount to is that you don't like it.

Yeah. I don't like shitty selling and bad matwork. Correct.

 

The only reason you're saying the selling is bad though is BECAUSE YOU DON'T LIKE IT. I explained the reason for the selling and all you can come back with is it was boring.

 

I didn't say that you said they sucked.

 

Did you have some other point with this line? "Yes, because if you haven't heard of the matches, they must suck."

 

No. The objective reasons of why the match was bad were already stated.

 

Where? You had this really tiny complaint which wasn't even valid that you tried to inflate into an argument and it won't work.

 

Being boring is just icing on the cake. Consider it the opposite of your "he's entertaining so he must be good" logic.

 

You've proven to me again and again that you don't understand what I'm saying so you can't use whatever you think my logic is. Every time you do it, it's just a cop-out.

 

Shawn's matwork certainly didn't look too devastating either. If you'd seen some good matwork, you might know this.

 

Is it better than Rock/HHH? Which is what you were comparing it to?

 

Maybe to a Shawn mark who's only seen crappy WWE matches. The matwork of Han-Tamura absolutely destroys it. It's not possible to think Shawn's matwork was good after comparing the two matches, or comparing to any other match with truly good matwork.

 

Japanese wrestling. Sorry, I don't have the time, or the money, or the energy to seek out tapes from other countries. If you do, great.

 

Jesus Christ, you can't even read your own fucking post.

 

Wrong, check it again.

 

Did you even read HIS post? BR says Angle thought his match with Benoit was the best ever, which is proof that he doesnt know what he's talking about.

 

He could've picked a lot worse than a great match to call the best ever.

 

Why couldn't it happen? Angle thinking the iron man was one of the best ever is just as dumb.

 

Not to me. I wouldn't change a thing about the match.

 

Because I've seen plenty of wrestling and understand how to analyze something maybe? ANYONE with the slightest bit of analytical skills would know that the iron man isn't even close to being "the best match ever."

 

What the hell is wrong with you? Just because you say "anyone with the slightest bit of analytical skills would" doesn't make it a fact. Get it through your head.

 

Great. I'm right then. Thanks for admitting that I'm right.

 

You're right about something no one was arguing. Do you want me to throw you a party?

 

No, using your own dumb logic against you is.

 

Say it again, why don't you... "RVD is a good wrestler because he's entertaining!"

 

Well that's what it's all about whether you can wrap you mind around it or not. It's even in the name of the company the guy is working for and the board you're posting on. You're even using it to try and say why WM12 is bad and you have been from the start, you're just either too dumb to realize it or you're pretending not to. Bleh, you give me a headache.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

96 standards? 00 standards?

 

So, would that make Angle-Benoit better than say Bret-Austin. You know, Austin-Bret was good by 96 standards, but Angle-Benoit was good by 03 standards, and because 2003 is more recent, it is better?

 

It may have escaped you, but generally, wrestling was better in the 90s.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

He has had 4 dissapointing matches with Brock Lesnar

 

Hey I thought those matches were pretty damn good. I can't say much about the Iron Man match because it wasn't shown in its entirety. Pretty much everybody on here thought their WM bout was the best, but I disagree as I thought the SS rematch was much better because Angle didn't have to be protected and could perform at 100% and I always thought that face Angle / heel Lesnar > heel Angle / face Lesnar.

Mania was OK.

SummerSlam was bad.

3 way with Show at Veng was a crappy spotfest.

Iron Man was the shits.

[Guest Goodear]

The evolution of wrestling does allow there to be an odd bit of sliding scale for past matches especially when you are talking about high flying contests. Basically looking back at Brad Armstrong and saying 'well he could have been more spectacular if he would have worked in a shooting star press now and again' is somewhat unfair considering he didn't wrestle in that sort of era. Nowadays, if someone coming up came in with that moveset he would be totally buried for being dull as dirt. In those cases I can see where people could make the case for the standards changing over time. But for the most part, a good match is a good match regardless of when it happens.

[chaosrage 0]

So they wasted a huge chunk of time?

 

No, they were trying to tell a story that you and Ray didn't like.

 

Because he recognizes that the booking was due to Bret and Shawn being dicks and nothing else.

 

Maybe we recognize that the booking of HHH and Rock was due to them being lazy and not being able to hold anyone's attention with one fall for 60 minutes. How do you like that?

 

Hmm, the announcers called Steiner v Hunter at Rumble physically intense and a good match.

 

I guess it was now.

 

Not the same thing. It's the announcers job to oversell a match. It's also the announcers job to explain what's happening in the ring.

 

No different then inventing psychology that wasn't there.

 

Do you think they just forgot what to do in the last 40 minutes?

 

Their "shitty-looking" holds blew the restholds from WM12 out of the water. Again, I never openly noticed the restholds in Rock v HHH. You couldn't help but notice them with Shawn v Bret.

 

All I noticed was two restholds, the only two that lasted for over a minute. After Shawn hit the timekeeper and right before the final 10 minutes.

 

Kurt said that Shane had the hardest punches in the business.

 

Shane flies like a butterfly and stings like a bee!

[Guest Goodear]

Their "shitty-looking" holds blew the restholds from WM12 out of the water. Again, I never openly noticed the restholds in Rock v HHH. You couldn't help but notice them with Shawn v Bret.

 

 

All I noticed was two restholds, the only two that lasted for over a minute. After Shawn hit the timekeeper and right before the final 10 minutes.

 

Dude the first half of the Iron man is nothing but restholds. The arm bars and headlocks that do nothing in the last thirty mintues are all about the resting in order to have something left for the last fifteen minutes. They just don't go anywhere. Contrast that to The Andersons and The Rock'n'Roll Express match on the Cage match DVD (that is mostly The Anderson's working over body parts) and tell me that Michaels and Bret were selling in the slightest.

[Guest Megatron]

The evolution of wrestling does allow there to be an odd bit of sliding scale for past matches especially when you are talking about high flying contests.

Nice to see someone on here has some sense.

 

But for the most part, a good match is a good match regardless of when it happens.

This, I totally agree with.

[Guest Megatron]

96 standards? 00 standards?

 

So, would that make Angle-Benoit better than say Bret-Austin. You know, Austin-Bret was good by 96 standards, but Angle-Benoit was good by 03 standards, and because 2003 is more recent, it is better?

 

It may have escaped you, but generally, wrestling was better in the 90s.

You always seem to miss the point. I never said which period was better. Wrestling is always evolving, just like every other form of entertainment. But here's something I do agree with you about, I also think the 90's were better.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

SummerSlam was bad.

 

How so?

[chaosrage 0]

Have you been working on a petition or something? I'd say a lot more people find Austin entertaining than they do RVD

 

This part wasn't about whether Austin was better than RVD, it was about whether or not RVD was a good wrestler.

 

Well whoever you were reading was putting a positive spin on things, how about not selling an arm AT ALL that Benoit had been working on the whole match? Unless the story is that Rob had a bionic arm that cheapens Benoit's offence.

 

He was holding his arm and screaming in pain a lot. Do you remember where he did the shoulderblock and fell down because his shoulder was hurting him so much?

 

Yes because he can do two things....cocky and stoned, now for a smaller promotion like ECW thats fine but for drawing the mainstream audience WWE wants it won't work. He's not strong on the mic and neither can he sell dramatically and inject a sense of importance into his matches, the only way to book it would be to make every match a spot filled gimmick affair to stop them sucking, when only Eddie, Benoit (on Raw not SS) and Jericho are capable of getting him to good standard wrestling matches he's got problems.

 

Funny, that doesn't seem to stop people from chanting RVD in every match. He's a draw now according to the breakdown of the ratings. Just not a huge one. And you don't think he would be huge if they did something with him? Okay, then.

 

Especially with the Raw roster, can you imagine how bad a 20-30 minute RVD Vs Goldberg/Kane/HHH/Batista/Michaels match would be?

 

A 20-30 minute RVD/HBK match would be bad?? Was that a joke? Fans have only been wanting to see that one since about 1996.

 

and I'm talking 2001, when he WAS pushed strongly

 

And that couldn't be because everyone was losing interest, could it? I mean, let's take a look and see what would happen if we did the same thing to other names. The month where they pushed Jericho and Benoit to the moon was close to the worst month for ratings of the year.... That night where Jericho and Benoit won the tag team titles brought the ratings down from a 4.5 to a 4.2. This was coming off of a PPV and the week before had Austin/HHH vs Kane. And it was built throughout the night. The week after, with Benoit vs Austin, meaning after the TLC match, RAW got ANOTHER 4.2. Angle vs Benoit made it go down even lower to a 4.1. Was that their fault too? Does that mean that Benoit and Jericho can't and won't ever draw?

 

No they don't they cheer for the way it's set up and the importance built into them, Hogan matches (outside Hansen and Savage) were never great from a realistic work perspective but he had the crowd in the palm of his hand from a "I'm the good guy, rally behind me and I might beat this evil bastard"

 

Dude, that's exactly what I said. It's nothing to do with Hogan's in ring skills. It's everything else. You're just rephrasing it in a different way.

[chaosrage 0]

Dude the first half of the Iron man is nothing but restholds.  The arm bars and headlocks that do nothing in the last thirty mintues are all about the resting in order to have something left for the last fifteen minutes.  They just don't go anywhere.  Contrast that to The Andersons and The Rock'n'Roll Express match on the Cage match DVD (that is mostly The Anderson's working over body parts) and tell me that Michaels and Bret were selling in the slightest.

They need to rest for THIRTY minutes to have something left at the end? I can't be the only one that this doesn't make sense to.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

SummerSlam was bad.

 

How so?

It was the usual Angle match for a start, so there are problems with that to begin with. The Angle inconsistencies etc.

 

The biggest problem was the fact that Angle went in to the match going on about how he wanted "A FIGHT!!!" with Lesnar, yet when the time came he was slapping on headlocks. It was just all wrong, and for two guys who supposedly hated each other, none of that was evident. They didn't portray their characters well at all. Infact, I don't think they could even decide which characters they were playing.

 

It was cold, passionless, boring stuff. Seriously, Michael Cole showed more fire than the two wrestlers. He put over the supposed hatred, it's just a shame Angle didn't do as good a job. Plus, the crowd was pretty dead, and only popped for the million suplexes or the finishers. Then there was the blown spot, which they repeated straight after, which looked horrible and basically screamed "WE FUCKED UP THE FIRST TIME!". The finish blew. The crappy "he reaches the ropes, but I pull him off" routine, that has only recently been apparently legal, and the fact that "the MANster!!!1111" tapped clean like a little bitch.

 

It had some positives. I mean, Brock played the monster OK, and it picked up slightly towards the end, but a great match, this wasn't.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

A 20-30 minute RVD/HBK match would be bad?? Was that a joke? Fans have only been wanting to see that one since about 1996.

 

RVD-HBK had a World title match on RAW, and it sucked. And the rating was bad for it, too, so I guess it wasn't a "dream match" after all.

[Guest Megatron]

They didn't portray their characters well at all. Infact, I don't think they could even decide which characters they were playing.

Brock played the monster OK

 

So which is it?

[Guest BionicRedneck]

They didn't portray their characters well at all. Infact, I don't think they could even decide which characters they were playing.

Brock played the monster OK

 

So which is it?

Sorry, I didn't really explain that. I meant, Brock played the moster OK as in he wrestled like one. You know, power moves and such. But, character wise, he was supposed to be a jealous, angry, evil (he had just killed Gowan etc.) "real" Brock Lesnar, and I didn't feel he really showed that.

[Guest Goodear]

They need to rest for THIRTY minutes to have something left at the end? I can't be the only one that this doesn't make sense to.

I think I garbled what I was trying to say I think. Basically neither really did anything that mattered in the first 30 minutes of the match and did everything of importance in the second half. Now whether you want to call it "resting" or not is probably up for debate but they really didn't expend a whole lot of energy during that period and it came off as boring since none of it mattered later in the match anyway.

[Guest Megatron]

I guess he could have been "Fag Lesnar" like he was right before the heel turn.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

RVD-HBK had a World title match

 

I'm sure a lot of people would have rather preferred to see this on a PPV instead of it being wasted on RAW.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

RVD-HBK had a World title match

 

I'm sure a lot of people would have rather preferred to see this on a PPV instead of it being wasted on RAW.

Well, judging by the rating that match did, nobody gave a shit anyway.

[Guest Megatron]

Well, judging by the rating that match did, nobody gave a shit anyway.

Especially since the average mark knows that there's no chance of RVD winning the belt anyway. And I don't mean because he's "a shitty wrestler," either.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

If it was supposed to be a dream match that people had been "waiting to see since 1996" like it was supposed to be, then it would have gotten a big rating regardless.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

the crowd was pretty dead

 

If anything the crowd was more into the match than Seattle was...