Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler...

[Guest Megatron]

NCJ, it doesn't matter what our opinions are of Austin. If they don't follow the "party line" then we are flamed.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

HBK: Could do it all in the ring: high flying, technical, and a belivable brawler. He put on great matches with a wide variety of opponents including UT, Bret, Bulldog, Owen, Chris Jericho, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Sid, and Foley. Could easily work a 45 minute plus match.

 

He could, huh? Why didn't he then? He did have a big match once that went an hour and it was shite. Shawn never had a great match with Sid. He had a good match considering it was Sid, that's all. Most. Overrated. Wrestler. Ever.

 

Booker T: He can fly, brawl, and work a power style. He sells well and moves quickly for a man his size. Has consistently added moves to his arsenal.

 

Shame all that hasn't equalled consistently good matches.

 

Rock: Sold better than any other major main eventer in the WWF Attitude Era. Put on great matches with Benoit, Jericho, Angle, Hogan, HHH, and Foley. Good matches with UT, Brock, Al Snow, RVD, Rhyno, Shamrock, and Booker T. Uses excellent psychology in his matches. Makes every one he faces look credible. Will put over anyone. Has added moves to his arsenal through out his career. (This will probably get some arguments)

 

How did Rock sell better than Austin? Rock has suffered from Shawn Superman syndrome lately, too. Great match with Hogan? I remember one fun one and one absolute shit one. Shamrock!? Christ. RVD? Fucking hell!

 

But does that fact alone make Austin a better worker than Angle?

 

No. but the fact that he is better than Angle in every area (that actually matters) does.

[bob_barron 0]

NCJ, it doesn't matter what our opinions are of Austin. If they don't follow the "party line" then we are flamed.

I must've missed all the flaming remarks at you.

 

I don't think Austin is the best ever or one of the best ever but the guy is much better then Shawn Michaels or The Rock. Austin doesn't have kip-upitis like those two though.

 

And saying that guys like Perry Saturn are better is just ignorance. Saturn hasn't had a good match in years

[Jack_Bauer 0]

Redneck, it's hardly worth arguing anymore.

[razazteca 0]

He could, huh? Why didn't he then? He did have a big match once that went an hour and it was shite. Shawn never had a great match with Sid. He had a good match considering it was Sid, that's all. Most. Overrated. Wrestler. Ever.

I blame Brett for the Iron Man match not being good.

[Guest NCJ]

BionicRedneck Posted on Nov 6 2003, 05:24 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE 

HBK: Could do it all in the ring: high flying, technical, and a belivable brawler. He put on great matches with a wide variety of opponents including UT, Bret, Bulldog, Owen, Chris Jericho, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Sid, and Foley. Could easily work a 45 minute plus match. 

 

 

He could, huh? Why didn't he then? He did have a big match once that went an hour and it was shite. Shawn never had a great match with Sid. He had a good match considering it was Sid, that's all. Most. Overrated. Wrestler. Ever.

 

QUOTE 

Booker T: He can fly, brawl, and work a power style. He sells well and moves quickly for a man his size. Has consistently added moves to his arsenal.

 

 

Shame all that hasn't equalled consistently good matches.

 

QUOTE 

Rock: Sold better than any other major main eventer in the WWF Attitude Era. Put on great matches with Benoit, Jericho, Angle, Hogan, HHH, and Foley. Good matches with UT, Brock, Al Snow, RVD, Rhyno, Shamrock, and Booker T. Uses excellent psychology in his matches. Makes every one he faces look credible. Will put over anyone. Has added moves to his arsenal through out his career. (This will probably get some arguments)

 

 

How did Rock sell better than Austin? Rock has suffered from Shawn Superman syndrome lately, too. Great match with Hogan? I remember one fun one and one absolute shit one. Shamrock!? Christ. RVD? Fucking hell!

 

QUOTE 

But does that fact alone make Austin a better worker than Angle?

 

 

No. but the fact that he is better than Angle in every area (that actually matters) does.

 

If you think Austin is better in the ring than Angle more power to you. I am not going to argue with you anymore.

 

I don't know why I like Rock's selling more? Maybe it is because of the fact Rock makes every move he is hit with look like it really hurts him. And you belive he can lose to anyone. Austin always wins. he always makes the same comeback. His selling is undermined by the fact that he almost never jobs.

 

I guess as long as you don't kip up it ain't a superhuman comeback.

 

You got your opinion and I have mine. The original post asked for my opinion. I gave it. If you don't agree fine. But, don't act like your opinion is the only one that matters.

 

 

bob_barron Posted on Nov 6 2003, 05:30 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

QUOTE (Megatron @ Nov 6 2003, 05:57 PM)

NCJ, it doesn't matter what our opinions are of Austin. If they don't follow the "party line" then we are flamed. 

 

I must've missed all the flaming remarks at you.

 

I don't think Austin is the best ever or one of the best ever but the guy is much better then Shawn Michaels or The Rock. Austin doesn't have kip-upitis like those two though.

 

And saying that guys like Perry Saturn are better is just ignorance. Saturn hasn't had a good match in years 

 

 

I never said I was being flammed if that was aimed at me. Even though when some guy says I am making an ass of myself because I asked for some examples of Austin after the neck surgery doing more than his basic moveset consistently.

 

I also said Saturn in his prime. I know he hasn't had a good match in years, but in his prime he had some very good matches.

[Guest Megatron]

He could, huh? Why didn't he then? He did have a big match once that went an hour and it was shite. Shawn never had a great match with Sid. He had a good match considering it was Sid, that's all. Most. Overrated. Wrestler. Ever.

I blame Brett for the Iron Man match not being good.

I was at WM12. I thought the match was very good. While it did get a bit boring at times because neither man wanted to be the first to job, the final couple minutes were great. Aside from the screwjob ending, I enjoyed myself. I was glad to see that they at least cooperated with each other the whole match.

[Guest Megatron]

I must've missed all the flaming remarks at you.

Read pages 3-5 of It's Official. All I'm saying is it seems that if you come on here and don't say that Austin/Benoit's on your top 5 you get your ass handed to you. Everybody here has to defend themselves. Why can't a person just have an opinion? I respect everybody's opinion. Because an opinion isn't a fact. Some people just get so defensive.

[Guest Ray]

Well, Bionic Redneck and others have covered most points, so I'll just add this:

 

All I'm saying is it seems that if you come on here and don't say that Austin/Benoit's on your top 5 you get your ass handed to you.

Austin and Benoit aren't in my top five. Not having them in your top five isn't why people are on you. Saying things like Angle is a better wrestler than Benoit is.

 

Everybody here has to defend themselves.

Yeah, isn't that the point of a discussion forum? If you're going to say something, you should defend it.

 

Why can't a person just have an opinion?

Because not everything is a matter of opinion. Benoit is a better wrestler than Angle. Benoit can sell better. Benoit can tell a logical story better. It's not an opinion that Benoit is a better seller.

 

You can *like* Angle more, but you can't say he's a better wrestler.

[Guest Megatron]

Benoit is a better wrestler than Angle. Benoit can sell better. Benoit can tell a logical story better. It's not an opinion that Benoit is a better seller.

That's totally an opinion. It is NOT a statement of fact. Just like saying RVD sucks is an opinion.

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

I must've missed all the flaming remarks at you.

Read pages 3-5 of It's Official. All I'm saying is it seems that if you come on here and don't say that Austin/Benoit's on your top 5 you get your ass handed to you. Everybody here has to defend themselves. Why can't a person just have an opinion? I respect everybody's opinion. Because an opinion isn't a fact. Some people just get so defensive.

When you say really stupid shit like this:

 

Yeah, Austin fighting Vince still would have been good without Corporate Champ, The Rock, huh? Do you even remember the night Austin chucked the IC belt into the river? Who was he feuding with at the time? The Rock. Vince was on the periphery of that. He was just starting to become Mr. McMahon. Then it became a 3 man feud. Besides, Austin probably wouldn't have won the belt from HBK if Shawn's back wasn't shit by WM14. They probably would have went with The Rock, or UT. All I'm saying is without the great chemistry between all 3 of them, the attitude era probably wouldn't have been such a boom for business.

You better expect to get called out for it.

 

 

Also...

 

His selling is undermined by the fact that he almost never jobs.

What the fuck does selling have to do with jobbing?

[Guest NCJ]

Hogan sold through out his matches. He only no sold during the comback. No one says Hogan is great at selling because no one belived Hogan would lose. Same goes for Austin.

[Guest Ray]

Benoit is a better wrestler than Angle. Benoit can sell better. Benoit can tell a logical story better. It's not an opinion that Benoit is a better seller.

That's totally an opinion. It is NOT a statement of fact. Just like saying RVD sucks is an opinion.

Are you kidding?

 

It's a FACT that Benoit is a better seller than Angle. This can be proven by simply watching their matches. Just like it's a FACT when I say Kevin Nash is not a great high-flyer, because I can watch his matches and prove this.

 

Did you miss the dozens and dozens of times Angle no-sold a leg to do his top rope suplex?

 

Stop acting like everything is subjective, because it isn't.

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

Hogan sold through out his matches.  He only no sold during the comback.  No one says Hogan is  great at selling because no one belived Hogan would lose.  Same goes for Austin.

No one says Hogan is a good-great seller because HE ISN'T!

 

People say Austin was a good-to-great seller because HE WAS!

 

The only thing both of those guys have in common is that they were huge, company-saving draws.

[Austin3164life 0]

Besides, Austin probably wouldn't have won the belt from HBK if Shawn's back wasn't shit by WM14. They probably would have went with The Rock, or UT.

 

Austin was slated to win the belt at IYH: Final Four almost a year earlier. But the plan for Austin to win at WM 14 was almost 4 months in advance. The person he was supposed to defeat? Bret Hart.

 

I have been reading Ray and BionicRedneck's arguments as well as reading others' posts. There's a point where a man's opinion cannot be logically justified. I hate the Utah Jazz, but I would be a complete moron to say Karl Malone is not a great basketball player. Sometimes it makes me wonder that if Austin didn't have all of his personal/business problems last June, the tone would be different. I also hate Austin's current character direction, but I'm not going to direct that hate and blatantly reject the fact that he was a great wrestler. If any Austin-doubters need proof of how great he could be in the ring, watch his match with Bret at Survivor Series in 1996. And don't come back with a lazy answer like "Bret carried him".

[Guest NCJ]

Anybody who says Austin wasn't a great worker is fooling themselves. He was excellent and one of the best all around. The only thing I disagre with are people saying he is the best worker in the history of the U.S.

[Guest Ray]

The only thing I disagre with are people saying he is the best worker in the history of the U.S.

But...who said that?

 

I clearly said I would rate Stan Hansen and The Destroyer ahead of Austin. Probably Harley Race and Vader too.

 

 

Austin's peak matches were superb. He most certainly would have had many more superb matches, had he not been injured and not had such poor opponents in 98-99.

Edited November 7, 2003 by Ray

[chaosrage 0]

I was at WM12. I thought the match was very good.

I wouldn't take anything they say too seriously. We've been over this match and over and over and over it and arguments against it never stand up.

 

I was glad to see that they at least cooperated with each other the whole match.

 

They didn't start not liking each other until after the match. But they hate each other now, and they both still call it one of the best matches they ever had. That probably means it was shite though.

[chaosrage 0]

You can *like* Angle more, but you can't say he's a better wrestler.

Yeah... Just like you might not *like* RVD, but he IS a good wrestler. Hey, I'm as good as you at this!

[chaosrage 0]

I'll never buy into the "Bret's good at interviews" deal. The only time that I've ever really enjoyed him on the stick was in his feud with his brother Owen, and the only reason that he was that great durring all of that is because true emotion was at play.

Bret was really great for the entire year in 97. The heel speech he did after WM was better than anything I've ever heard from Austin. Sure it was all because it was true emotion but that's a good thing.

[Guest Boddicker]

I'll never buy into the "Bret's good at interviews" deal. The only time that I've ever really enjoyed him on the stick was in his feud with his brother Owen, and the only reason that he was that great durring all of that is because true emotion was at play.

Bret was really great for the entire year in 97. The heel speech he did after WM was better than anything I've ever heard from Austin. Sure it was all because it was true emotion but that's a good thing.

He really showed some fire when he went on that cursing tirade on RAW the night after IYH: Final Four also.

[chaosrage 0]

He really showed some fire when he went on that cursing tirade on RAW the night after IYH: Final Four also.

I loved that. It sounded so real. Fooled everybody.

 

"Frustrated isn't the goddamn word for it! THIS IS BULLSHIT!!!"

[Guest Ray]

You can *like* Angle more, but you can't say he's a better wrestler.

Yeah... Just like you might not *like* RVD, but he IS a good wrestler. Hey, I'm as good as you at this!

No, you're not.

 

Anyone who can do the slightest bit of analysis should know that RVD is not a good wrestler.

 

RVD is one of the WORST SELLERS EVER. His work is completely illogical. He is the epitome of spot-fu.

 

To call him a "good wrestler" is absurd.

 

But hey, you saw him do a cool move, so he must be great.

 

 

Van Dam is crap.

[chaosrage 0]

Just because he's not good at selling doesn't make him a bad wrestler. He's not even THAT bad at it. He'll just forget every now and then and run around the ring or do a cartwheel on a hurt shoulder. Other wrestlers (like say every cruiserweight there is) get away with a lot worse. It's believable that he's hurt when he's getting attacked.

 

RVD is entertaining. Every week. To normal fans and net fans. What's a wrestler's job? To entertain the crowd with wrestling matches. So if he's doing his job, how could be a bad wrestler? Because you say he isn't?

 

Take a look at this thread. The One and Only WWE Raw Thread (9.29.03)

How many other wrestlers can get that kind of response?

[The Mandarin 0]

Shawn Michaels: Most. Overrated.Wrestler. Ever.

I'll agree with you there, I've never understood most of the praise for the man.

 

Maybe it's the girly tights.

 

..

[chaosrage 0]

Shawn Michaels: Most. Overrated.Wrestler. Ever.

I'll agree with you there, I've never understood most of the praise for the man.

 

Maybe it's the girly tights.

 

..

I've never seen him have a bad match. Sid, Undertaker, freakin King Kong Bundy, Mark Henry, the new HHH, against anybody.... It's always at least okay.

[Guest Ray]

Just because he's not good at selling doesn't make him a bad wrestler.

Yes, it does. Along with his piss poor psychology, awful transitions and awful striking moves.

 

RVD is entertaining. Every week.

Bullshit. He doesn't entertain me.

 

He's not even THAT bad at it. He'll just forget every now and then and run around the ring or do a cartwheel on a hurt shoulder. Other wrestlers (like say every cruiserweight there is) get away with a lot worse. It's believable that he's hurt when he's getting attacked.

Whoa! Look at the excuses fly. He forgets to sell CONSTANTLY. Every cruiserweight no-sells everything? You've never seen a Jushin Liger or Shinjiro Ohtani match I guess. And other wrestlers no-selling does not make it OK for RVD to do it.

 

To normal fans and net fans. What's a wrestler's job? To entertain the crowd with wrestling matches.

Here we go again. "He entertains me so he must be good!!1" is the weakest argument. If Nathan Jones entertained me, would that make him a good wrestler? HELL NO.

 

if he's doing his job, how could be a bad wrestler?

Piss poor selling, psychology, and striking moves maybe?

 

Because you say he isn't?

Because of logical analysis.

 

Take a look at this thread. The One and Only WWE Raw Thread (9.29.03)

How many other wrestlers can get that kind of response?

Yeah, a bunch of people blowing their load over some ladder spots = good wrestler.

[Guest Ray]

Shawn Michaels: Most. Overrated.Wrestler. Ever.

I'll agree with you there, I've never understood most of the praise for the man.

 

Maybe it's the girly tights.

 

..

I've never seen him have a bad match. Sid, Undertaker, freakin King Kong Bundy, Mark Henry, the new HHH, against anybody.... It's always at least okay.

Did you miss that garbage crapfest from Summerslam 2002?

[Downhome 0]

Did you miss that garbage crapfest from Summerslam 2002?

I thought it was fucking great considering it was his first match back after years of not being in the ring.

 

Not a ***** classic, but it was still entertaining to me.

[chaosrage 0]

Bullshit. He doesn't entertain me.

 

Just you.

 

Whoa! Look at the excuses fly. He forgets to sell CONSTANTLY. Every cruiserweight no-sells everything? You've never seen a Jushin Liger or Shinjiro Ohtani match I guess. And other wrestlers no-selling does not make it OK for RVD to do it.

 

No, stick to the US. Point is everybody excuses most cruiserweight wrestlers and calls them good. No-selling a few times doesn't destroy a match.

 

Here we go again. "He entertains me so he must be good!!1" is the weakest argument. If Nathan Jones entertained me, would that make him a good wrestler? HELL NO.

 

More like he entertains EVERYBODY. I didn't use the word me.

 

Yeah, a bunch of people blowing their load over some ladder spots = good wrestler.

 

It does heh. It doesn't make him the best wrestler ever but it makes him worthwhile. It means he's doing his job. It means most people, including this board, want to see him.