KTID 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Bret Hart will never be the greatest b/c he dogged it when the cameras weren't on. Not a fact. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 In terms of North America: Juventud Guerrera (1994-3/96) Eddy Guerrero El Hijo del Santo Barry Windham Chris Benoit over Flair. So about 6th in the US. Oh, forgot Destroyer. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tim Cooke 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Many people have documented his house show matches as being crappy when Bret wanted to be lazy and good when he wanted to be good. Tim Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I believe that Flair is the one who took the interview and made into something special. Flair could go either way with it whether it be the arrogant boast about his lifestyle of being the best or Flair could do an emotional one that could sell the angle and PPV. Also in the extremely over the top version of Flair where he is yelling and screaming at the top of his lungs he is more entertaining than watching Hogan say Brotha to Mean Gene. I would rather watch Flair WOOOOOOOO~ and elbow drop beer cans than watch Hogan talk about the vitamins, the prayers, the big guns... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I believe that Flair is the one who took the interview and made into something special. Flair could go either way with it whether it be the arrogant boast about his lifestyle of being the best or Flair could do an emotional one that could sell the angle and PPV. Also in the extremely over the top version of Flair where he is yelling and screaming at the top of his lungs he is more entertaining than watching Hogan say Brotha to Mean Gene. I would rather watch Flair WOOOOOOOO~ and elbow drop beer cans than watch Hogan talk about the vitamins, the prayers, the big guns... I've never truly felt an actual emotional bond to a PROMO, as I have many times while watching a Ric Flair promo/interview. To be honest, I can't think of that many off of the top of my head. There are a few times where Cactus Jack really got to me, and especially the Owen Hart promo after he turned on Bret at the Royal Rumbl '94. I'll never forget Owen on the big screen, shouting down to his brother as he was being helped to the back. That was truly a special moment, just fucking great. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted November 3, 2003 As a "total package", I'd take Austin over Flair, personally... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't think I have EVER had an emotional bond with any Austin persona, that right there keeps him from even touching my list in terms of a "total package". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ligerbomb03 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't think Flair is the greatest ever, but I certainly rate him higher than Austin. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Ray Report post Posted November 3, 2003 I don't think I have EVER had an emotional bond with any Austin persona I have. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Flair knows how to work the mic and the camera, this is the man who should be emulated when making a wrestling personality. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest ligerbomb03 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Flair knows how to work the mic and the camera, this is the man who should be emulated when making a wrestling personality. And for proof of this, all you need to do is go back and watch that great promo Flair cut on Shawn Michaels a while back on Raw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Salacious Crumb Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Bret Hart will never be the greatest b/c he dogged it when the cameras weren't on. Not a fact. Actually it's pretty well documented and almost any "name" net guy who's not viciously biased towards Hart will tell you so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KTID 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Better than Flair (for me): Dynamite Tiger Mask Benoit Liger Misawa Kawada Kobashi Jumbo Bret Austin Eddie Juvy Ultimo Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
EdwardKnoxII 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Actually it's pretty well documented and almost any "name" net guy who's not viciously biased towards Hart will tell you so. This is an old Torch column by Mark Madden that talks about the whole Bret Hart dogging it on house shows thing. I thought it was interesting. RADIO GAGA Bad enough that Bret Hart, the lowestdrawing world champion in history—excepting some, but not all, of the pseudoworld champs discussed earlier—calls Ric Flair overrated, 3 on a 10 scale, or whatever. I think the response to that is obvious, but here goes anyway. While Bret Hart has had a handful of brilliant matches on payperview, he waltzes through house show bouts and is, in general, a lazy S.O.B. unless the cameras are on. Add to that the fact that Ric Flair often has had fivestar matches—matches better than Bret Hart dreams of—in front of house show crowds shy of a thousand, and you get the reason for Hart’s vitriolic statements, namely jealously over having onehalf of Flair’s ability and onemillionth of his charisma. Bret may also be jealous of Flair who, at 45, looks like he could be 25 while Hart, at 35, looks like he could be dead. Like I said, that was bad enough. But Jim Ross had to have Hart repeat his drivel on “Radio WWF,” then “call Ric Flair in Jacksonville” to get his response, making Flair look like a schmos when the call went unanswered. Like anyone would be near a phone at a WCW house show, or anywhere near the show at all for that matter. Ross, show some class. And if you’re going to let people rip Flair on your radio show, at least be honest enough to mention that when you were both in WCW, you had your tongue so far up Flair’s behind that you could taste what flavor gum he was chewing. I mean, the only time Flair missed shows due to injury was when he stopped suddenly and Ross’s fivehead—much bigger than a forehead, don’t you agree—smashed into his tailbone. Honesty is the best policy, Jim. Give it a whirl sometime. Mark Madden of Pittsburgh, Pa., is a 14year veteran sportswriter and editor with the Pittsburgh PostGazette. He has contributed a monthly column to the Torch since April 1991. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chaosrage 0 Report post Posted November 3, 2003 Lou Thesz said it best, "You've seen one Flair match, you've seen them all" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Downhome 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 I don't think I have EVER had an emotional bond with any Austin persona I have. Would you care to tell me when? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Mad the Swine Report post Posted November 4, 2003 I'm not saying that Flair is the greatest. It's not a distinction that I believe can feasibly exist. I can only say that Flair is far from the best in-ring, technical, hold-for-hold, catch-as-catch-can worker. But here's a few things for thought: Flair had the most insane schedule in the history of the world in the 1980s. 380 matches per year at its peak. If you want excerpts, I'll post them. 10,000 miles per week was not out of the question. Neither were double shots with broadways in both places. Flair enjoyed long matches and worked them as often as possible; 30 minutes is probably a little low for an estimate of average house show match time. Plus, you add in the Flair was one of the biggest party animals of the day. Sleep wasn't a priority. Injuries. From early 1977 until a week in 1990, Flair didn't take more than a day or so to heal injuries. In the midst of this, circa 1987, Flair cracked (technically, broke) a disc in his neck in the ring. He didn't miss a booking. He tried to wrestle with vertigo in 1992 and then came back in half the time expected. He offered to continue wrestling after tearing his rotator cuff in 1995 (left) and 2000 (right). Persona. He's not drawing like he once did - and that could be faulted to various bookers alternatively burying and lauding him. He hasn't went in any character direction since 1993. The ringwork has grown less and less with injuries taking their toll. And he's still as over as he is. There's still folks occasionally posting that he deserves a brief world title run. Not too shabby. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Ric Flair is a great wrestler, but a bad worker. As an employee he's made the same mistake so many other workers have: Taking the book and building it all around himself. Thankfully, because he's such a great wrestler, nobody cares. But it was still a Poochie run, no matter what. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 I can't believe people see "the total package" in people who can't do high flying... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JPF Report post Posted November 4, 2003 I'll rate Austin as a better in0ring worker than Flair. I probably have a good 15-20 people who I would rate as better workers than Flair, but he is by no means any slouch. I would say: Dick Beyer Stan Hansen Harley Race Eddie Guerrero Ricky Steamboat Steve Austin are better American workers than Ric Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 I can't believe people see "the total package" in people who can't do high flying... So you're saying that the spot of Flair getting slammed off of the turnbuckle is not high flying? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 That's right. Maybe if he landed on someone. I forgot to mention innovating... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Flair getting whipped into the turnbuckle and flipping over is innovating. Which would leave several options 2 of which always happened were the lariat by the opponet or the "No No No don't throw me" from the top turnbuckle from the other side. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Fuck. I'm stoned outta my gourd right now but dammit, I'm goin' for this anyways. Flair is not even close to being one of the greatest of all time. Let's just get that out of the way now. Here's a list for your viewing pleasure. ALL BETTER THEN FLAIR - Benoit - Guerrero - Hart - Lyger - Jumbo - Kobashi - Kawada - Misawa - Vader - Takada - Austin Flair matches are repititive as shit, with very little of anything. No mat work, no strong style, no flying. No stiff moves. Just a ton of backdrops, chops and struts. I'll be the first to admit that the man is charasmatic as fuck and is a legend on the mic (though Foley is better then Flair, anybody who's seen his Cactus Jack work in ECW should know.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
razazteca 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Flair brings the psycology with the knee base moveset. Also Flair can bruise his opponet's chest with the chops. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 It's basic joint psychology. Nothing too amazing. People don't blow their load when Benoit does the shoulderbreakers or neckbreakers because they know the crossface is coming. Flair's storytelling isn't at the level of guys like Misawa, Jumbo or Kobashi. Heck, you could argue that Benoit and Austin are better storytellers. Oh, and here's another list about Flair. GUYS WHO COULD BECOME BETTER THEN FLAIR IN DUE TIME - American Dragon - Rey Mysterio - Low Ki - AJ Styles (send this kid to Japan for longer then your basic Z-1 tour) - Yoshihiro Takayama - Jun Akiyama - Chris Daniels - Yuji Nagata - Kazushi Sakuraba Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Besus Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Flair is the worst wrestler of all time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JPF Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Ki, Styles, Daniels possibly better than Flair? And Mysterio is past his peak, and isn't anywhere as good as peak Flair. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RavishingRickRudo 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Of all the names Curry put up there (Takayama and Sakuraba - wow, you ARE baked out of your gourd), you chose those 3?? So doing 1 highflying move (which isn't high flying - you could have said his crappy crossbody press) and doing 1 original move (which I think was done before Flair did it) makes someone a highflyer and an innovator? I don't think so. Flair could bump and put his own spin on things, I'll give ya that. Misawa, Lyger, Benoit, Kobashi are probably the only guys I can think of who'd I would consider "total packages" in-ring... I haven't seen enough Harley Race.. in terms of promo and drawing... since I don't speak Japanese I can't tell ya how well Misawa spoke. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lord of The Curry 0 Report post Posted November 4, 2003 Fuckin hell. I just got done watching some SpongeBob. It's officially genius. Admit it, Rudo. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
