Ric Flair: Greatest worker, wrestler...

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

I find Foley overrated on the mic.

 

I might get heat for this but I'll take Randy Savage, in his prime, over Flair anyday.

[The Kid 0]

Guys it's my personal opinion about Flair, I understand how you feel...but the Harts and the others on my list always got me caught up the most in their matches. I dont know what it was about them but I just can't tear my eyes away when Owen,Bret,Dynamite,Benoit or Foley are on my screen. They just captivate me in a way Ric Flair has never, ever had.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I Looooooooooooooooooove Foley on the mic. Not particularly in his post-wrestling days, but he was able to play at different levels and hit several notes, plus he could actually tell a story and sell a match. I don't think there was anyone better... at least, I haven't heard em.

[razazteca 0]

I find Foley overrated on the mic.

 

I might get heat for this but I'll take Randy Savage, in his prime, over Flair anyday.

Savage and Flair were equals during the time they were feuding in WWF. The Arrogant Flair vs the Jealous Savage was one of the greatest match ups ever in WWF at the time.

 

Foley was more than just a gimmick voice and Ohhhhhhhhhhh Yeah DIG IT! Bang! Bang!

[Guest Megatron]

Foley is the greates brawler & insane bump machine ever!  Plus his promos ruled HE ATE WORMS! DORITOS! AND WAS HARDCORE!

Yes, his ECW promos were gold, but a bump machine does not a good wrestler make. How hard is it to let a guy pretend to throw you off a cage, stage, top-rope, etc., etc., etc.? Besides, the best brawler ever was Bruiser Brody.

Edited November 6, 2003 by Megatron

[Guest Megatron]

I'll take Randy Savage, in his prime, over Flair anyday.

As a wrestler, I'd second that. As far as best promos, I'd have to give the edge to Jerry Lawler when he was Heel King. Those were pretty damn funny! I'll never forget the night that he went up into the stands at the Manhattan Center and laid into Stu and Helen Hart while Bret was wrestling. I was a mark then and that shit made me HATE Jerry.

[Guest JPF]

Besides, the best brawler ever was Bruiser Brody.

 

You mean Stan Hansen

[Guest Megatron]

Besides, the best brawler ever was Bruiser Brody.

 

You mean Stan Hansen

Even he's a better pick than Foley.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

Besides, the best brawler ever was Bruiser Brody.

 

You mean Stan Hansen

Even he's a better pick than Foley.

Even him? What's that suppose to imply?

 

Flair, Austin, and Bret Hart's best can't touch Stan Hansen's best performances.

[Guest NCJ]

QUOTE 

Booker at his best

 

Not a chance. Has Booker ever had a match as good as Austin's at Survivor Series 96, Mania 13, Mania 17, or 5/31/01?

 

QUOTE 

Sting at his peek

 

Sting? Nope.

 

QUOTE 

Vader, Steamboat,

 

Forgot about Vader. I'd put him up there. I've seen Steamboat's best, and I'd rate Austin's best just as high.

 

QUOTE 

Saturn at his best

 

 

 

QUOTE 

Ted Dibiase,

 

Maybe...not seen enough of him.

 

QUOTE 

Rick Rude, Scott Steiner before all the roids,

 

Are you serious with all these names?

 

QUOTE 

HBK

 

Shawn wasn't better than Austin. Austin didn't do shitty no-selling superman comebacks in every match. Austin brought much deeper levels of story/psychology to his matches. Austin was a much smarter, more logical worker. Austin is EASILY better than Shawn Michaels.

 

QUOTE 

I still prefer Rock over Austin in and out of the ring.

 

PLEASE explain to me how Rock is a better wrestler than Austin. Rock's best match happens to be a giant carry by Austin...

 

--------------------

 

Booker T's matches with Benoit were miles better than Austin's matches with Benoit. In WCW and occasionally in the WWE Booker can do it all in the ring. I will give Austin an edge in psychology, but Booker is a better all around worker.

 

Sting has more good to great matches with worse workers than Austin ever has. He has had great matches with Flair, Muta, Luger(Luger's best match outside of Flair), Rick Rude, Vader, Foley, DDP, one of the best matches towards the end of WCW vs. Lance Storm, and hell he even got an over 3 star match out of the Giant. How many people can say that one on one? Maybe Angle and Lesnar? Sting is overlooked as a worker because alot of people didn't see him before 95-96, but in his prime Sting was way better than Austin all around. He was a decent high flyer for the time, had nice power moves, and was technically sound.

 

Steamboat's best is so far ahead of Austin's best it ain't even funny. I put any of Steamboat's matches with Flair or Savage against anything Austin has done. The only matches even in the running for Austin are the WM matches with Bret Hart and Rock. And both of those seem so good only because of the build up. I love both matches and they are easily two of my favorite matches of all time, but from a work rate standpoint Steamboat smokes them. In fact Austin's best matches outside of Rock and Bret Hart actually happened against Steamboat in WCW.

 

Like I said Saturn at his best could fly, do power moves, submissions, work a good match psychologically, and make almost anyone look good. Like I said if you don't think Saturn's a good worker watch his ECW matches against RVD and Sabu, his WCW matches with Raven, and his tag matches with Benoit and Malenko.

 

Have you ever watched Rick Rude in his prime. The man pulled an over 3 star match with the fucking Ultimate Warrior twice. Without any extra hype or special event like WM career or title vs title match. His matches and fueds with Jake the Snake, Flair, and Sting are classics. You really can't be serious if you don't think he was a great worker.

 

I'm not even going to get into Scott Steiner. If you have seen any of the matches he put on before he started to look like a comic book character you would know why he is on the list.

 

Austin didn't make unbelievable superman comebacks? Are you fucking kidding me. If Austin didn't steamroll his opponents the whole match he always made unbelivable comebacks. Honestly in the ring you can't say that HBK wasn't better. I don't even like Shawn, and I love watching Austin even before it became cool to be an Austin mark, but HBK was a better in ring worker.

 

Rock worked an hour with HHH in HHH's best match to date. He has put on better matches with UT than Austin ever has. His No Mercy match with Angle was better than any of Austin's matches with Angle. He has had better matches with Mick Foley. I prefer Rock's ppv match with Chris Benoit. He has had mutch better matches with Chris Jericho and Booker T. He carried Hogan to the match of his career at WMXVIII(I know the circumstances of the match had alot to do with it, but it was a great match with very good psychology and paced damn near perfectly). He made AL Snow a believable threat during their fued(the only time Snow got any real heat in the WWE outside of head). Rock wrestled three very good matches in one night on PPV at SS'98. I can see why you like Austin better, and you are entitled to your opinion, but to me Rock is every bit as good as Austin with less time in the business.

 

Honestly if you don't justify it with a phrase like main event worker there are plenty of guys easily found who are better in the ring than Austin.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Booker T's matches with Benoit were miles better than Austin's matches with Benoit. In WCW and occasionally in the WWE Booker can do it all in the ring. I will give Austin an edge in psychology, but Booker is a better all around worker.

 

What sort of madness is this?

 

 

Sting has more good to great matches with worse workers than Austin ever has. He has had great matches with Flair, Muta, Luger(Luger's best match outside of Flair), Rick Rude, Vader, Foley, DDP, one of the best matches towards the end of WCW vs. Lance Storm, and hell he even got an over 3 star match out of the Giant. 

 

1. Luger's best outside of Flair would be against Steamboat.

2. I must have missed the "great" matches with Muta, Storm, Giant and Page.

 

 

Steamboat's best is so far ahead of Austin's best it ain't even funny. I put any of Steamboat's matches with Flair or Savage against anything Austin has done. The only matches even in the running for Austin are the WM matches with Bret Hart and Rock. And both of those seem so good only because of the build up. I love both matches and they are easily two of my favorite matches of all time, but from a work rate standpoint Steamboat smokes them. In fact Austin's best matches outside of Rock and Bret Hart actually happened against Steamboat in WCW.

 

Bret-Austin > Steamer-Savage

 

Austin-Benoit > Austin-Steamboat

 

Like I said Saturn at his best could fly, do power moves, submissions, work a good match psychologically, and make almost anyone look good.

 

Saturn was basically a spot monkey. Please, please, please point me to the techincal Perry Saturn matches with great psych. Please.

 

I'm not even going to get into Scott Steiner. If you have seen any of the matches he put on before he started to look like a comic book character you would know why he is on the list.

 

Austin's best smokes Steiner's. Scott's good stuff came when he was in a tag team. He has never had singles matches that match Austin's best.

 

Austin didn't make unbelievable superman comebacks? Are you fucking kidding me. If Austin didn't steamroll his opponents the whole match he always made unbelivable comebacks. Honestly in the ring you can't say that HBK wasn't better. I don't even like Shawn, and I love watching Austin even before it became cool to be an Austin mark, but HBK was a better in ring worker.

 

Austin made babyface comebacks. Shawn made superman comebacks that (often) shit on his opponents entire offense. Austin's best >>>>>>>>> Shawn's best.

 

Rock worked an hour with HHH in HHH's best match to date. He has put on better matches with UT than Austin ever has. His No Mercy match with Angle was better than any of Austin's matches with Angle. He has had better matches with Mick Foley. I prefer Rock's ppv match with Chris Benoit. He has had mutch better matches with Chris Jericho and Booker T. He carried Hogan to the match of his career at WMXVIII(I know the circumstances of the match had alot to do with it, but it was a great match with very good psychology and paced damn near perfectly). He made AL Snow a believable threat during their fued(the only time Snow got any real heat in the WWE outside of head). Rock wrestled three very good matches in one night on PPV at SS'98. I can see why you like Austin better, and you are entitled to your opinion, but to me Rock is every bit as good as Austin with less time in the business.

 

This is mind boggling stuff here. The Iron man match wasn't HHH's best, where are the good Rock-UT matches? Austin-Benoit > Rock-Benoit. Hogan has had many better matches than the one he had with the Rock, Snow was never a believable threat. And the best: "Rock wrestled three very good matches in one night on PPV at SS'98."

 

You need help.

[Guest NCJ]

QUOTE 

Booker T's matches with Benoit were miles better than Austin's matches with Benoit. In WCW and occasionally in the WWE Booker can do it all in the ring. I will give Austin an edge in psychology, but Booker is a better all around worker.

 

 

What sort of madness is this?

 

Austin never was a high flyer in his career. Honestly what legitamite offense dose Austin consistently do other than the Thez press and Stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker smokes Austin in WCW. All Austin did in the WWE past his neck injury is stomp, punch,the occasional suplex, chop, thez press, and stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker's moveset in WCW was miles better, and all eight of his matches with Benoit were better than Austin's match with Benoit.

 

QUOTE 

Sting has more good to great matches with worse workers than Austin ever has. He has had great matches with Flair, Muta, Luger(Luger's best match outside of Flair), Rick Rude, Vader, Foley, DDP, one of the best matches towards the end of WCW vs. Lance Storm, and hell he even got an over 3 star match out of the Giant. 

 

 

1. Luger's best outside of Flair would be against Steamboat.

2. I must have missed the "great" matches with Muta, Storm, Giant and Page.

 

I don't remember a Luger Steamboat fued, but Luger vs. Sting at SuperBrawl 2 was the best Lex Luger match I have seen outside of Flair. Didn't watch the NWA you missed a great series of matches between Sting and Muta. Sting and DDP had one of the best free television matches I have seen when Sting beat DDP for the title by countering the Diamond Cutter with the Scorpion Death Drop. He and Storm had a great match toward the end of Nitro's run. And everyone on the board who saw the Slamboree 96 match have said it is way better than any match that envolves the Giant is supposed to be. Sting was a better worker. Austin was better on the mic,

but Sting was a better worker.

 

QUOTE 

Steamboat's best is so far ahead of Austin's best it ain't even funny. I put any of Steamboat's matches with Flair or Savage against anything Austin has done. The only matches even in the running for Austin are the WM matches with Bret Hart and Rock. And both of those seem so good only because of the build up. I love both matches and they are easily two of my favorite matches of all time, but from a work rate standpoint Steamboat smokes them. In fact Austin's best matches outside of Rock and Bret Hart actually happened against Steamboat in WCW. 

 

 

Bret-Austin > Steamer-Savage

 

Austin-Benoit > Austin-Steamboat

 

I might give you both of those depending on my mood. However Steamboat vs. Savage was a way better match technically than Austin vs. Bret. What made Austin vs. Bret so great is the ending, crowd reaction, and pure hatred that they showed. Savage vs. Steamboat was a great match because of the wrestling. Steamboat has worked more great matches than Austin has period.

 

QUOTE 

Like I said Saturn at his best could fly, do power moves, submissions, work a good match psychologically, and make almost anyone look good.

 

 

Saturn was basically a spot monkey. Please, please, please point me to the techincal Perry Saturn matches with great psych. Please.

 

You look at the matches I listed earlier. His match with Raven when he was trying to free the Flock and his matches with Raven as a tag team are great technical matches with wonderful psychology and good ring work. Even some of his matches with Jericho while lesser than the other two I listed were good matches.

 

QUOTE 

I'm not even going to get into Scott Steiner. If you have seen any of the matches he put on before he started to look like a comic book character you would know why he is on the list.

 

 

Austin's best smokes Steiner's. Scott's good stuff came when he was in a tag team. He has never had singles matches that match Austin's best.

 

I will give you that alot of his best came in tags, but he did have a short singles run before he left WCW the first time. I should have probably said he had the potential to be better than Austin in a singles push.

 

 

Austin made babyface comebacks. Shawn made superman comebacks that (often) shit on his opponents entire offense. Austin's best >>>>>>>>> Shawn's best.

 

The fuck ever Austin made more comebacks that killed credibility than HBK ever did. I don't remember Michaels betting two over 6'10 300 pound monsters at once and walking away untouched In Your House before SS. When he went on his top face push if Austin didn't steamroll his opponents until they started to cheat he would get his ass beat for about ten minutes and then get up Thez press, Stunner.

This is mind boggling stuff here. The Iron man match wasn't HHH's best, where are the good Rock-UT matches? Austin-Benoit > Rock-Benoit. Hogan has had many better matches than the one he had with the Rock, Snow was never a believable threat. And the best: "Rock wrestled three very good matches in one night on PPV at SS'98."

 

You need help.

 

It was the match that legitamized HHH to smarks. If you don't think so look at all the hate he was getting before that match. To me that was HHH's best match. The only one close is his match with Austin in the best 2 out of 3 falls. Rock vs. Benoit was way better than Austin vs. Benoit. Rock has had better matches with UT than Austin ever has. Hogan has had many better matches than the one with Rock? When, were, and with who in the U.S.? Rock put over Snow on more than one occasion, sold his offense, and generally made Snow a legitamate heel during their fued in late 1999.

 

If you don't think Rock wrestled three atleast 2 and 1/2 to 3 star matches at the SS with the tournament for the title, you didn't see the PPV.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Austin never was a high flyer in his career.

 

Booker was hardly a "high flyer". He did a missile dropkick and Harlem Hangover.

 

Honestly what legitamite offense dose Austin consistently do other than the Thez press and Stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker smokes Austin in WCW. All Austin did in the WWE past his neck injury is stomp, punch,the occasional suplex, chop, thez press, and stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker's moveset in WCW was miles better, and all eight of his matches with Benoit were better than Austin's match with Benoit.

 

You are embarrasing yourself. This is the sort of shit Ray was talking about.

 

 

Didn't watch the NWA you missed a great series of matches between Sting and Muta. Sting and DDP had one of the best free television matches I have seen when Sting beat DDP for the title by countering the Diamond Cutter with the Scorpion Death Drop. He and Storm had a great match toward the end of Nitro's run. And everyone on the board who saw the Slamboree 96 match have said it is way better than any match that envolves the Giant is supposed to be. Sting was a better worker.

 

I did watch the NWA. I watched most of the matches (missed the Giant one). They weren't great.

 

You look at the matches I listed earlier. His match with Raven when he was trying to free the Flock and his matches with Raven as a tag team are great technical matches with wonderful psychology and good ring work. Even some of his matches with Jericho while lesser than the other two I listed were good matches.

 

So basically you are saying Saturn had some good matches. Maybe. Austin had loads more. The only Saturn match I would say even comes close to the best Steve Austin did was the SS 99 tag match.

 

Saturn vs. Jericho blew.

 

The fuck ever Austin made more comebacks that killed credibility than HBK ever did.

 

Shawn kicked Vader's ass more than once. That killed Vader as a main eventer.

 

. When he went on his top face push if Austin didn't steamroll his opponents until they started to cheat he would get his ass beat for about ten minutes and then get up Thez press, Stunner.

 

Well, if he was booked to win he had to make a comeback at some point didn't he? You know, like most babyfaces do? What most don't do is get their broken back worked for 15 minutes, nip-up, no-sell it and start doing a various array of flying moves. I know Steve Austin didn't, but Shawn sure as hell did.

 

It was the match that legitamized HHH to smarks.

 

Right, so that makes it his best match, and a reason for Rock being better than Austin. Plus, beating Foley probably did more for him

 

To me that was HHH's best match. The only one close is his match with Austin in the best 2 out of 3 falls.

 

Oh dear. I'll let someone else deal with this. I can't be assed.

 

Rock vs. Benoit was way better than Austin vs. Benoit. Rock has had better matches with UT than Austin ever has.

 

You said that last time, and I asked you where these great Rock-UT matches were.

 

Hogan has had many better matches than the one with Rock?

 

Vs. Hansen, Dibiase, Flair, Savage, Muta and probably even Warrior.

 

Rock put over Snow on more than one occasion, sold his offense, and generally made Snow a legitamate heel during their fued in late 1999.

 

Nobody bought him as a legit threat to the Rock's title.

 

If you don't think Rock wrestled three atleast 2 and 1/2 to 3 star matches at the SS with the tournament for the title, you didn't see the PPV.

 

You are whacked out of your gourd.

[Michrome 0]

The only match on that tournament that broke ** was Foley-Austin. It really gives me a headache when people bash Austin for his lack of moveset, as if that's what makes a wrestler great. If that were the case, all of the floundering Indy guys who can string a bunch of incredibly flashy moves together would have jobs with the WWE. What makes a good wrestler is transitions, selling, pacing, and storytelling ability. Austin was king in all of those areas. His Smackdown! match with Chris Benoit was better than any of the Booker-Benoit matches, as well. He brought Rock and Angle to their best matches ever in 2001, and was able to rough it up in different styles all the way till the end. Hell, he had a *** match with Ric Flair on Raw sometime before he quit.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

I think I'm gonna dissect that one as well, even though I might only be adding to points already made.

 

Austin never was a high flyer in his career.

 

Hmm, well, that makes Booker T a mile better then doesn't it ?

 

Honestly what legitamite offense dose Austin consistently do other than the Thez press and Stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker smokes Austin in WCW. All Austin did in the WWE past his neck injury is stomp, punch,the occasional suplex, chop, thez press, and stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker's moveset in WCW was miles better, and all eight of his matches with Benoit were better than Austin's match with Benoit.

 

Having seen Benoit's matches with Austin and Booker, I would have to say that the Austin/Benoit match from RAW after a Survivor Series ( can't remember which one ) was the better match from them all. A large moveset doesn't make a great wrestler, and I have seen Austin in great matches all of the time before this year.

 

Didn't watch the NWA you missed a great series of matches between Sting and Muta. Sting and DDP had one of the best free television matches I have seen when Sting beat DDP for the title by countering the Diamond Cutter with the Scorpion Death Drop. He and Storm had a great match toward the end of Nitro's run. And everyone on the board who saw the Slamboree 96 match have said it is way better than any match that envolves the Giant is supposed to be. Sting was a better worker.

 

I haven't seen a lot of NWA, so I don't know about the old matches though I have seen Sting v Flair from COTC I and I thought it was amazing, though I HAVE seen better Steve Austin matches, mind you, I have heard that Sting HAS done better, so I can't judge on that match.

 

You look at the matches I listed earlier. His match with Raven when he was trying to free the Flock and his matches with Raven as a tag team are great technical matches with wonderful psychology and good ring work. Even some of his matches with Jericho while lesser than the other two I listed were good matches.

 

Steve Austin was in some of my favourite matches EVER ! Saturn has been in good matches, and is a good worker, but wasn't ever at the level of Steve Austin.

 

The fuck ever Austin made more comebacks that killed credibility than HBK ever did.

 

I could hardly make that damn sentence out, although I wouldn't say that Austin killed the credibility of too many guys.

 

When he went on his top face push if Austin didn't steamroll his opponents until they started to cheat he would get his ass beat for about ten minutes and then get up Thez press, Stunner

 

Yet the matches were still better than Perry Saturn matches.

 

It was the match that legitamized HHH to smarks.

 

I wouldn't say that it was his best match, and Triple H was getting over with smarks after his brawls with Cactus Jack, though his match with The Rock at JD 2000 DID help his credibility.

 

To me that was HHH's best match. The only one close is his match with Austin in the best 2 out of 3 falls.

 

I still think the match is overrated. Austin/HHH from No Way Out or the Rock/HHH Ladder Match are still my favourite HHH matches.

 

Rock vs. Benoit was way better than Austin vs. Benoit. Rock has had better matches with UT than Austin ever has.

 

I have NEVER seen a good Rock v UT match. I have seen a good UT v Austin match. It wasn't great, but good.

 

Hogan has had many better matches than the one with Rock? When, were, and with who in the U.S.?

 

Harley Race, Ultimate Warrior, Ric Flair are the ones I can remember right now.

 

Rock put over Snow on more than one occasion, sold his offense, and generally made Snow a legitamate heel during their fued in late 1999.

 

Doesn't match Val Venis beating Manking with no help though. The Rock puts people over, but I wouldn't say he was a better worker.

 

If you don't think Rock wrestled three atleast 2 and 1/2 to 3 star matches at the SS with the tournament for the title, you didn't see the PPV.

 

That's a matter of opinion. His match with Big Bossman was 4 secs long. His match with Shamrock wasn't great at all. His match with Undertaker wasn't good either and his match with Manking was good, but it isn't hard to have a good match with Mankind.

[Guest NCJ]

Booker was hardly a "high flyer". He did a missile dropkick and Harlem Hangover.

 

More than Austin has ever done. And he did have other top rope moves.

 

QUOTE 

Honestly what legitamite offense dose Austin consistently do other than the Thez press and Stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker smokes Austin in WCW. All Austin did in the WWE past his neck injury is stomp, punch,the occasional suplex, chop, thez press, and stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker's moveset in WCW was miles better, and all eight of his matches with Benoit were better than Austin's match with Benoit. 

 

 

You are embarrasing yourself. This is the sort of shit Ray was talking about.

 

Give me some examples then.

 

QUOTE 

The fuck ever Austin made more comebacks that killed credibility than HBK ever did.

 

 

Shawn kicked Vader's ass more than once. That killed Vader as a main eventer.

 

QUOTE 

. When he went on his top face push if Austin didn't steamroll his opponents until they started to cheat he would get his ass beat for about ten minutes and then get up Thez press, Stunner. 

 

 

Well, if he was booked to win he had to make a comeback at some point didn't he? You know, like most babyfaces do? What most don't do is get their broken back worked for 15 minutes, nip-up, no-sell it and start doing a various array of flying moves. I know Steve Austin didn't, but Shawn sure as hell did.

 

Vader beat the shit out of Shawn that entire match. Shawn got the win witch I thought sucked, but that match ain't what killed Vader. It was jobbing to everyone from Mark Henry to Sid, to Kane, and everybody in between.

 

The only time Shawn supposedly had a broken back was after his last comeback. I guess Owen losing to Austin after a brocken neck in a squash, Austin betting Big Show, UT, Mankind, and Everyone under the sun with Mcmahon's help wasn't hurting anyone's credibility.

 

QUOTE 

Rock vs. Benoit was way better than Austin vs. Benoit. Rock has had better matches with UT than Austin ever has.

 

 

You said that last time, and I asked you where these great Rock-UT matches were.

 

QUOTE 

Hogan has had many better matches than the one with Rock? 

 

 

Vs. Hansen, Dibiase, Flair, Savage, Muta and probably even Warrior.

 

QUOTE 

Rock put over Snow on more than one occasion, sold his offense, and generally made Snow a legitamate heel during their fued in late 1999.

 

 

Nobody bought him as a legit threat to the Rock's title.

 

QUOTE 

If you don't think Rock wrestled three atleast 2 and 1/2 to 3 star matches at the SS with the tournament for the title, you didn't see the PPV.

 

 

You are whacked out of your gourd.

 

King of the Ring 99, Rock vs. UT SS 98, Rock vs. UT vs. Angle Vengenance 2003. All Rock vs. UT matches that are better.

 

When did Hogan actually wrestle Dibiase. His matches with Hansen and Muta were in Japan. I said in the U.S. Rock vs. Hogan was better than every match he has had vs Savage, Flair, and Warrior and I am a fan of all 3 of those matches. You are entitled to your own opinion however.

 

Rock didn't even have the fucking belt when he fueded with Snow. That is how I know you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

 

The fuck ever man. I apologize for getting a little upset. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but you have to give me some examples or some real reasons instead of insulting my opinions. Austin is not the best ever. It is the same problem that rap fans have with Big and Pac. When the career of someone who was influential to you is over you overestimate there abilities. Big and Pac are great, but there have been other rappers who are better. Elvis was great, but there have been other singers who are better. Joe Montana was a great Quaterback, but there have been other quaterbacks who were better. Austin was a very good worker, and a great overall talent, but there are alot of guys in wrestling who are better.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Give me some examples then.

 

Of what? You making an ass out of yourself?

 

You seem to have a ridiculous idea that larger moveset = better wrestler.

 

If that were the case then AJ Styles > Stan Hansen. Think about it.

 

Vader beat the shit out of Shawn that entire match. Shawn got the win witch I thought sucked, but that match ain't what killed Vader. It was jobbing to everyone from Mark Henry to Sid, to Kane, and everybody in between

 

Vader wrestled Henry and co. in 98-99. He was killed as a main eventer long before then.

 

The only time Shawn supposedly had a broken back was after his last comeback. I guess Owen losing to Austin after a brocken neck in a squash, Austin betting Big Show, UT, Mankind, and Everyone under the sun with Mcmahon's help wasn't hurting anyone's credibility.

 

I thought we were having a discussion about who was the better fucking wrestler. Austin never no-sold ten minutes of back work like Shawn would!

 

King of the Ring 99, Rock vs. UT SS 98, Rock vs. UT vs. Angle Vengenance 2003. All Rock vs. UT matches that are better.

 

ugh.

 

said in the U.S. Rock vs. Hogan was better than every match he has had vs Savage, Flair, and Warrior and I am a fan of all 3 of those matches. You are entitled to your own opinion however.

 

YOu didn't say in US. You said "Rock carried him to his best ever match" or some shit. You only brought the "in the US" thing up later.

 

Rock didn't even have the fucking belt when he fueded with Snow. That is how I know you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

 

He didn't? Sorry

 

Anyway, nobody took Snow seriously. Well, maybe you did.

 

Austin is not the best ever.

 

Who said he was? Who? Do you even know what we are talking about?

[Jack_Bauer 0]

More than Austin has ever done. And he did have other top rope moves.

 

And again I ask, that makes him better ? As I say a large moveset doesn't make someone better than someone else.

 

Vader beat the shit out of Shawn that entire match. Shawn got the win witch I thought sucked, but that match ain't what killed Vader. It was jobbing to everyone from Mark Henry to Sid, to Kane, and everybody in between.

 

Yeah, Vader gets two unclean victories and then HBK wins CLEAN. That helped Vader so much.

 

King of the Ring 99, Rock vs. UT SS 98, Rock vs. UT vs. Angle Vengenance 2003. All Rock vs. UT matches that are better.

 

Again, that's a matter of opinion, so I'm not gonna dwell too much on that, but I still think that UT v Rock matches were bad. As for the Triple Threat Match, Angle and Rock worked together enough to make it great, UT didn't particularly help the match, although he didn't hurt it either.

 

When did Hogan actually wrestle Dibiase. His matches with Hansen and Muta were in Japan. I said in the U.S. Rock vs. Hogan was better than every match he has had vs Savage, Flair, and Warrior and I am a fan of all 3 of those matches. You are entitled to your own opinion however

 

I'll always say that the crowd heat made the match with The Rock overrated.

 

Rock didn't even have the fucking belt when he fueded with Snow. That is how I know you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

 

I remember when it was, it was reaching late 99, so you can't accuse me of not knowing, although Al Snow was mainly used to put The Rock and Mankind over, NOT to get himself over, but he DID go over.

 

I don't wanna get into a war here or anything, but I will always say that Austin is one of the best workers I have ever seen from the US.

[Guest Megatron]

Besides, the best brawler ever was Bruiser Brody.

 

You mean Stan Hansen

Even he's a better pick than Foley.

Even him? What's that suppose to imply?

 

Flair, Austin, and Bret Hart's best can't touch Stan Hansen's best performances.

It means that he's a better brawler than Foley could ever hope to be.

[Guest NCJ]

Other's here started with the Austin is the best worker in the U.S. not me.

 

I was asking for examples of moves that Austin does how is that making an ass out of myself.

 

I never said a larger moveset made you better, but it does show that you are willing to broaden your range and put something new and interesting in your matches. I prefer WCW T.V. title Booker to Austin. That is a matter of opinion.

QUOTE 

Vader beat the shit out of Shawn that entire match. Shawn got the win witch I thought sucked, but that match ain't what killed Vader. It was jobbing to everyone from Mark Henry to Sid, to Kane, and everybody in between.

 

 

Yeah, Vader gets two unclean victories and then HBK wins CLEAN. That helped Vader so much.

QUOTE 

Vader beat the shit out of Shawn that entire match. Shawn got the win witch I thought sucked, but that match ain't what killed Vader. It was jobbing to everyone from Mark Henry to Sid, to Kane, and everybody in between

 

 

Vader wrestled Henry and co. in 98-99. He was killed as a main eventer long before then.

 

QUOTE 

The only time Shawn supposedly had a broken back was after his last comeback. I guess Owen losing to Austin after a brocken neck in a squash, Austin betting Big Show, UT, Mankind, and Everyone under the sun with Mcmahon's help wasn't hurting anyone's credibility.

 

 

 

I thought we were having a discussion about who was the better fucking wrestler. Austin never no-sold ten minutes of back work like Shawn would!

 

First of all the loss to Michaels ain't what killed him. Jobbing to everyone is what killed him as a main eventer. If Vader beats Sid, or goes over UT once he is still a main eventer.

 

You brought up the no selling of the back to justify Austin being better than HBK not me. Shawn's selling wasn't the best, but neither was Austin's. And if you use selling to justify your pick of Austin over Shawn I will use that same logiic for Rock over Austin. If it is a workrate issue I prefer HBK vs. Bulldog at King of the Ring 96, HBK vs. Mankind In Your House Mind Games(talk about psychology) HBK vs. UT Hell in a Cell, HBK vs. Razor Ramon both ladder matches, HBK vs. Chris Jericho at WM XIX to every Austin match I have seen other than Bret vs. Austin WMXIII and vs Rock at WMXVII. That is the reason why I prefer HBK to Austin.

Austin has never? No sold in his life okay if you say so.

 

QUOTE 

When did Hogan actually wrestle Dibiase. His matches with Hansen and Muta were in Japan. I said in the U.S. Rock vs. Hogan was better than every match he has had vs Savage, Flair, and Warrior and I am a fan of all 3 of those matches. You are entitled to your own opinion however

 

 

I'll always say that the crowd heat made the match with The Rock overrated.

 

QUOTE 

said in the U.S. Rock vs. Hogan was better than every match he has had vs Savage, Flair, and Warrior and I am a fan of all 3 of those matches. You are entitled to your own opinion however.

 

 

 

YOu didn't say in US. You said "Rock carried him to his best ever match" or some shit. You only brought the "in the US" thing up later.

 

You are correct I didn't say in the U.S. until the Second time I posted, but before you brought up Hansen and Mutah I did say give me a better match Hogan has had in

the U.S. Then you brought up Hansen and Mutah. The reason I said in the U.S. is because I haven't seen those two matches and I have always heard that Hogan's work in Japan(especially with those two opponents is a step above his work here). As far as the Rock vs. Hogan match being overrated, I said the crowd and the event is what makes that match so special, but it was paced damn near perfectly and it was a better match than any Hogan has had in the U.S.

 

Look I respect everyone's right to have an opinion, but don't try to treat mine like it is less than yours because we don't agree. I have given reasons for Why I prefer those workers seperate from saying Austin sucks. I like Austin and I also think he was an excellent worker, and perhaps the best all around talent in wrestling history, but I don't think he is the best worker in the U.S. ever. You give me a reason why you think he is? If he does more in the ring give me an example? Express your opinions without making statements like you are making an ass of yourself then we can discuss. Until then I'm trying not to respond to you.

Edited November 6, 2003 by NCJ

[razazteca 0]

Besides, the best brawler ever was Bruiser Brody.

 

You mean Mick Foley

Look what I can do, I can edit quotes also...

 

Not a big fan of Brody as I have not seen his best matches or any actually.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

Vader didn't carry Sting. It was clearly Vader's match but Sting did everything in his role perfectly.

 

Vader carried Inoki on 1/4/96.

 

Jumbo didn't carry Kobashi on 5/24/91. They worked as an equal partnership, though it was clear that Kobashi was the young upstart who had little chance of dethroning Tsuruta.

 

Vader and Sting worked together.

 

Tim

Eck where's Sting's volume Tim, maybe you can rate the Vader matches up there with Steve's best, personally I'd say Austin/Bret SurSer96, Austin/Bret - Mania 13 (unless we're subsribing to the idea that we should downgrade it a shitload because they didn't play on the turnbuckle spot) and Austin/Rock - Mania 13 were better

 

Borden's going to have to find a SHITLOAD of other great face, heel and tag stuff to get even close to Austin though, there's some face (not as much or as good as Austin), some tag (not as much or as good as Austin) but I'd be hard pressed to find the heel goodness

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

QUOTE 

Booker T's matches with Benoit were miles better than Austin's matches with Benoit. In WCW and occasionally in the WWE Booker can do it all in the ring. I will give Austin an edge in psychology, but Booker is a better all around worker.

 

 

What sort of madness is this?

 

Austin never was a high flyer in his career. Honestly what legitamite offense dose Austin consistently do other than the Thez press and Stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker smokes Austin in WCW. All Austin did in the WWE past his neck injury is stomp, punch,the occasional suplex, chop, thez press, and stunner. Eventually he added a spinebuster. Booker's moveset in WCW was miles better, and all eight of his matches with Benoit were better than Austin's match with Benoit.

 

...

 

WHAT? Austin/Benoit smokes every single one of the Benoit/Booker matches, easily.

 

 

I don't remember a Luger Steamboat fued, but Luger vs. Sting at SuperBrawl 2 was the best Lex Luger match I have seen outside of Flair.  Didn't watch the NWA you missed a great series of matches between Sting and Muta.

Ummmm... Steamboat/Luger happened the same time as Sting/Muta, yet you say you don't remember it? And BTW, Steamboat/Luger and Luger/Pillman smoke Sting/Luger.

 

 

Sting and DDP had one of the best free television matches I have seen when Sting beat DDP for the title by countering the Diamond Cutter with the Scorpion Death Drop.

That match was decent, not great.

 

 

Sting was a better worker.  Austin was better on the mic,

but Sting was a better worker.

While back before the Crow days was a pretty good worker in his own right, he's not better than Austin.

 

 

In fact Austin's best matches outside of Rock and Bret Hart actually happened against Steamboat in WCW. 

Ummm... Austin/Steamboat, while very good, isn't on the same level as Austin/Foley, Austin/Angle, nor Austin/Benoit

 

 

I don't remember Michaels betting two over 6'10 300 pound monsters at once and walking away untouched In Your House before SS. 

He was the ref for that match and both Kane and Taker had wrestled like 15 minutes before he stunned them both. It doesn't excuse him at all, but it's better than doing a fucking kip-up after your opponent has been killing your back all match long.

 

 

Rock vs. Benoit was way better  than Austin vs. Benoit.  Rock has had better matches with UT than Austin ever has.  Hogan has had many better matches than the one with Rock?  When, were, and with who in the U.S.? 

Rock/Benoit was nowhere near Austin/Benoit. The Dusty Finish alone kills that argument.

 

Not ONE Rock/Taker match has ever been on the level of Austin/Taker from SummerSlam 98.

 

Savage and Flair.

 

 

If you don't think Rock wrestled three atleast 2 and 1/2 to 3 star matches at the SS with the tournament for the title, you didn't see the PPV.

Egads... are you high or something? The only GOOD match on that entire crappy PPV was Austin/Foley and even THAT wasn't all that good to begin with.

 

Rock/Bossman? HA!

 

Rock/Shamrock? BORING!

 

Rock/Taker? Boring AND a shitty finish!

 

Rock/Foley? Meandering crap.

[Guest Rob Edwards]

God bless you Tim, you'll have a hard time with this guy on your side ;-)

 

Other's here started with the Austin is the best worker in the U.S. not me.

 

Probably because he's close to it at the very least

 

I was asking for examples of moves that Austin does how is that making an ass out of myself.

 

I never said a larger moveset made you better, but it does show that you are willing to broaden your range and put something new and interesting in your matches. I prefer WCW T.V. title Booker to Austin. That is a matter of opinion.

 

Austin's character was a brawler, his whole persona was that he was an ass kicking machine, you want to see a wider moveset? Well why not dig into this WCW collection of yours you keep ranting on about and watch some Hollywood Blondes matches?, or anything he did there.

 

Modern era Austin was indeed a kick puncher. but he was a kick puncher capable of the best psychology and facial selling of his emotions during a match as I've ever seen in one of the big three on a long term basis. You think a swanton bomb would have made sense with his character?

 

You brought up the no selling of the back to justify Austin being better than HBK not me. Shawn's selling wasn't the best, but neither was Austin's. And if you use selling to justify your pick of Austin over Shawn I will use that same logiic for Rock over Austin.

 

How? I'm a big fan of Rock's work but I'm not sure how you justify that

 

And if you use selling to justify your pick of Austin over Shawn I will use that same logiic for Rock over Austin. If it is a workrate issue I prefer HBK vs. Bulldog at King of the Ring 96, HBK vs. Mankind In Your House Mind Games(talk about psychology) HBK vs. UT Hell in a Cell, HBK vs. Razor Ramon both ladder matches, HBK vs. Chris Jericho at WM XIX to every Austin match I have seen other than Bret vs. Austin WMXIII and vs Rock at WMXVII. That is the reason why I prefer HBK to Austin.

 

Please don't bring up psychology as a reason for rating Shawn Michaels over Steve Austin....for your own good, seriously

 

As far as the Rock vs. Hogan match being overrated, I said the crowd and the event is what makes that match so special, but it was paced damn near perfectly and it was a better match than any Hogan has had in the U.S.

 

Better than Hogan/Savage? OK then :\

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Hogan/Rock...Hoga's best? Huh? It wasn't even his best Wrestlemania match.

 

Hell I heard his match with Mutoh in Japan was better than the Rock match.

Edited November 6, 2003 by TheOriginalOrangeGoblin

[Guest Megatron]

Hell I heard his match with Mutoh in Japan a few weeks ago was better than the Rock match.

It was. It was very innovative for it's time (1993). I have it on cd around here somewhere. You can find it on Kazaa.

[Guest NCJ]

I said Austin was an excellent worker, but he is not the best in the U.S. ever!!!!

 

I agree he was much better workrate wise in WCW. I listed some of the matches of his that I like, not to mention Austin vs. Sting, Austin vs. Dustin Rhodes, Austin vs. Bobby Eaton, Austin/Pillman vs. Steamboat Douglas, Austin/Pillman vs. Dustin Rhodes/Barry Windham. I like Austin alot, but his WWF work ain't the best ever.

 

As far as the moveset comments, how about a piledriver, back breaker, the texas clover leaf he used against Bret, or a swinging neck breaker. I wasn't asking Austin to switch his style or start flying like a cruiserweight, all I wanted was a few more moves to add a knew demension to his matches. Just like alot of people ask from Brock Lesnar, RVD, Cena, and every hoss. I never said modern day Austin wasn't a great worker I just said I liked others more than him. His facial expressions were golden, and his psychology was very good, but there are others I prefer watching

 

Rock sells for everyone. He is the only WWE maineventer who does consistently sell for every opponent.

 

I didn't use psychology as a reason to rate HBK over Austin I used the psychology used in the match with Foley at in your house as a response to someone who said none of HBK's matches had any psychology to them.

 

As far as the matches go everyone has their own opinions. If you liked match A more than match B more power to you if you ask me why I liked a match more than another I will give you a response.

 

P.S. I forgot about Luger vs. Pillman. That was a great match. And somehow I have forgotten the Steamboat Luger match. I only had NWA regionally, so it may have not been shown where I live.

 

I haven't seen Hogan vs. Mutah, but that match took place in 93. Rock carried Hogan to a great match in 2002. that is a nine year difference. Plus, Hogan was hurt.

Edited November 6, 2003 by NCJ

[Guest Rob Edwards]

That's jumping back on the old "it's my opinion so it can't be wrong because it's my opinion" thing though, which would be fine if you hadn't got yourself into a debate

 

If you can explain what makes Michaels or Booker better than Austin then maybe this will go somewhere

[Jack_Bauer 0]

I haven't seen a Booker T match that has been better than the Austin v Rock match of Wrestlemania X-7.

[Guest NCJ]

I never said it is my opinion so it has to be right I said everyone is entitled to their opinion. I have given my reasons for liking Michaels and Rock more than Austin in the ring. Here they are again.

 

HBK: Could do it all in the ring: high flying, technical, and a belivable brawler. He put on great matches with a wide variety of opponents including UT, Bret, Bulldog, Owen, Chris Jericho, Razor Ramon, Diesel, Sid, and Foley. Could easily work a 45 minute plus match.

 

Booker T: He can fly, brawl, and work a power style. He sells well and moves quickly for a man his size. Has consistently added moves to his arsenal.

 

Rock: Sold better than any other major main eventer in the WWF Attitude Era. Put on great matches with Benoit, Jericho, Angle, Hogan, HHH, and Foley. Good matches with UT, Brock, Al Snow, RVD, Rhyno, Shamrock, and Booker T. Uses excellent psychology in his matches. Makes every one he faces look credible. Will put over anyone. Has added moves to his arsenal through out his career. (This will probably get some arguments)

 

As I have said repetedly I like Austin. I think he was very good in the ring. But there are other wrestlers in the U.S. I think were better. I could understand why I was getting so much hate if I suggested The Big Show, Val Venis, or Randy Orton were better in the ring. I don't understand how it is so unbelivable that I think HBK or Rock were better in ring workers than Austin. If you look at my first post on this subject I said Austin is one of the best all around talents wrestling has ever seen. I think his matches with Bret at WMXIII and Rock at WMXVII are two of the greatest matches in WWF history. But, just because he had one or two matches better than any other match someone else had dosen't mean he is neccesarily better than them. David Robinson has scored more points in a game befor than Jordan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Malone, and Dr. J. That dosen't make him better than them. That just means he faced the right opponent and had the right opportunity to do so. I could say Kurt Angle hasn't ever had a match as good as Austin and Bret WMXIII. And alot of people would agree with me. But does that fact alone make Austin a better worker than Angle?