!~2004 Indy Breakout Stars Predictions~!

[Guest Markingout]

WTF are you smoking. He will be known as a spotfester on the indy circuit. Are you saying he is going too be better than Punk,Daniels,Hero,Danielson,Low Ki,Styles,Super Dragon,BJ Whitmer,Homicide,Jimmy Jacobs,Alex Shelly,Jimmy Rave,Trent Acid,Colt Cabana,Matt Stryker,Scoot,Sonjay,Ace Steel,B-boy,Jay Briscoe,Mark Briscoe,Chad Collyer,Xavier,John Walters,Danny Maff,Bobby Quance,The Messiah,Tony Mamaluke,Mike Quackenbush,Juventud,Chris Sabin,Johnny Kashmere,Steve Corino,Raven,Abyss,and alot more? I dont think so... (I named all those guys off the top of my head  )

I'd say he already is a better all-around wrestler than all the guys I put in bold type.

So Teddy is better than Low Ki right. I think every man is entitled too his own opinion,but thats fricken crazy. Low Ki could wrestle circles around Teddy.

 

Sandman you think Steel is underrated,what about fricken Mike Quackenbush. This guy has been holding his own on the circuit for quite some time now. The only thing holding him back is no chrisma or look. J*ingus I doubt you have ever seen a Colt Cabana or Matt Stryker match if your saying Hart is better than Hero. I Don't mean too sound like an ass either.

[Jingus 0]

First of all, I don't have that high an opinion of Low-Ki's work. He often looks like he's way too stiff with those kicks to the face, his high-flying is usually sloppy as hell, and his selling is often the goofiest this side of Kobashi.

 

I've seen Chris Hero wrestle several times, both live and on tape (including the snoozfest 93 minute match), and I don't doubt that he's good. But I prefer Teddy's stuff to Hero's, it's a matter of opinion.

 

Ace Steel and Matt Stryker I've only seen in TNA, and yeah, it didn't seem like the greatest atmosphere for them, but I still wasn't impressed.

 

I've seen a couple of Colt Cabana's matches from IWAMS, and he's decent, but hell, why be a goofy comedy wrestler when you're on the same show with Nate Webb, who you know is always gonna outdo you in that department?

 

Quackenbush I actually haven't seen in years, and my memory is kinda fuzzy, so yeah, I'll retract that one.

 

A question to those making the comparisons: how much of Teddy's work have you seen? I've caught six or seven of his matches, and the thing that always struck me about him was his versatility. He can do tight traditional Canadian matwork with the best of them, along with old-school Memphis stallfests, and then there's few better high flyers and spot machines in the world. (Jack Evans is better in that category, one of the best I've ever seen, but that's another subject.)

[Guest Markingout]

A question to those making the comparisons: how much of Teddy's work have you seen?  I've caught six or seven of his matches, and the thing that always struck me about him was his versatility.  He can do tight traditional Canadian matwork with the best of them, along with old-school Memphis stallfests, and then there's few better high flyers and spot machines in the world.  (Jack Evans is better in that category, one of the best I've ever seen, but that's another subject.)

About 5 matches I have seen of Teddy. I have seen his TNA X-Cup work. An older match of his when he is 16 I think. He was facing Harry Smith who was 14 at the time. From 2000(I didnt expect much ), and one of his latest matches from about May 2003 I think vs some guy named Duke Dango. Hart was suppose too play the underdog seeing as he is so much smaller than the 6'9 300 lbs+ Duke. Hart thought he was in there with Smith or Evans. It looked very bad. X-Cup were some of the best spotfests ever seen.

 

The thing with Ted is his selling. He has too learn long term selling with long team psycology. And I just dont mean by get spiked on your head putting your hand on it occasionally. Also Teddy for a guy that was trained by Stu his techniques look very fake,and his work is pretty basic compared you what else you see on the indy circuit. I agree he is easily one the best spotfesters in North America. His moves are usually done pretty crisply.

 

Also about Evans. I saw Evans on MLW Underground TV this week. He sucks... He wrestled infront of 200 MLW fans who heard awesome things about him and he sucked. Dutt grounded him after a while and ended it early as Evans went nuts with spots,and almost killed himself smacking his head on the guardrail after a somersault plancha too the fallen Sonjay on the outside. He is sloppy.

 

First of all, I don't have that high an opinion of Low-Ki's work. He often looks like he's way too stiff with those kicks to the face, his high-flying is usually sloppy as hell, and his selling is often the goofiest this side of Kobashi.

 

LOL if there is one too hate Low Ki it is me. Did you see my old sig. But there is one thing you cannot deny is that he is easily on the best techincal wrestlers in the world whose emotions in matches feed too the crowd(stiffness). Wrestling wise I dont see how Ted could be better. Wrestling wise I mean chrisma,and technicalness. Speed and all that other stuff aside.

 

As for Colt. Of course Nate is funnier,but Colt is not a complete comedy guy. The man can move in the ring. Alot better than Webb at actual wrestling.

 

I've seen Chris Hero wrestle several times, both live and on tape (including the snoozfest 93 minute match), and I don't doubt that he's good. But I prefer Teddy's stuff to Hero's, it's a matter of opinion.

 

I've got one question. If you dont like Hero then do you Danielson because they basically work the same style. Them two are tied for the best two in all of the indy circuit.

Edited January 21, 2004 by Markingout

[Jingus 0]

I've got one question. If you dont like Hero then do you Danielson because they basically work the same style. Them two are tied for the best two in all of the indy circuit.

I love Danielson, I think he's probably the best wrestler in the world who isn't signed to a contract. I just don't think that Hero is as good as him. AmDrag's mat skills are worlds better than just about anyone around, including Hero, and he's in much better physical condition.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

I've got one question. If you dont like Hero then do you Danielson because they basically work the same style. Them two are tied for the best two in all of the indy circuit.

I love Danielson, I think he's probably the best wrestler in the world who isn't signed to a contract. I just don't think that Hero is as good as him. AmDrag's mat skills are worlds better than just about anyone around, including Hero, and he's in much better physical condition.

I love Danielson too, but Hero might be a better seller than him. I agree that Danielson is better with matwork, but I would give the selling edge to Hero.

[Sandman9000 0]

I've got one question. If you dont like Hero then do you Danielson because they basically work the same style. Them two are tied for the best two in all of the indy circuit.

I love Danielson, I think he's probably the best wrestler in the world who isn't signed to a contract. I just don't think that Hero is as good as him. AmDrag's mat skills are worlds better than just about anyone around, including Hero, and he's in much better physical condition.

How would you definte physical condition then? If you mean by visible abs and ripped muscles, then AmDrag clearly has the edge. But if you mean by cardio and how long they can convincingly wrestle before/without blowing up, Hero's got that edge.

[Guest Markingout]

I've got one question. If you dont like Hero then do you Danielson because they basically work the same style. Them two are tied for the best two in all of the indy circuit.

I love Danielson, I think he's probably the best wrestler in the world who isn't signed to a contract. I just don't think that Hero is as good as him. AmDrag's mat skills are worlds better than just about anyone around, including Hero, and he's in much better physical condition.

How would you definte physical condition then? If you mean by visible abs and ripped muscles, then AmDrag clearly has the edge. But if you mean by cardio and how long they can convincingly wrestle before/without blowing up, Hero's got that edge.

Indeed. Hero can go. Sure he has a belly,but you can tell by London vs Dragon 45 minute match that Hero can go alot longer. Also by Hero going 30 minutes in about every match he main events with no signs of being tired really. You know at the thirty minute mark he can just start chain wrestling again. Just like Sandman said. He is amazing.

 

AmDrag's mat skills are worlds better than just about anyone around, including Hero,

 

Worlds better than Chris? I would say better, but not worlds better. Trust me you have too check out some of Hero's best matches.

 

Also, I am more entertained by Hero because I think he feeds energy too the crowd. Hero also dosen't use that many restholds even though when Danielson does it he usually does it for psycology. Though something I think that goes on too long. I also think Hero is more chrismatic. Danielson dosent always play too the crowd.

 

I like Hero more. I find him too be more entertaining that Bryan. Both are such awesome wrestlers though.

[Guest The Last Free Voice]

Dragon played a psudo-heel at Main Event Spect. He was jawing with the crowd. It was quite cool....

[Guest OSIcon]

There isn't one thing I can think of that Hero has over Danielson.

 

Conditioning? No. Okay, Hero has gone 93 minutes. Does that mean Danielson can't? Of course not. It is unproven if he can, of course, but can't be used as evidence that Hero is in better condition. Danielson has never showed any signs of getting blown up in any matches I have seen him in. You are confusing selling with being "tired and blown up" in the 2/3's match against London.

 

Mat Skills? No. Hero has the basics down really well. So does Matt Stryker. That doesn't mean either is the best wrestler in the world. Danielson puts his mat work together in a much more convincing way. A good bit of Hero's comes off as technically sound, but not as inspired as Danielson's.

 

Telling a Story? Not close. Again, Hero can tell a fine body part story, but so can two dozen other guys on the indies. I know it is cliched, but everything Danielson does seems to serve a purpose and he is always doing something. This isn't a slight to Hero's ability as much as it is a nod to Danielson, who maybe unparreled anywhere in the world when it comes to smart work and storytelling like this.

 

Sellling? Hero sells fine, but I don't see how he is better than Danielson. They both sell the obvious stuff really well so it is a throw up there. Danielson has all the nuances down though. Touching his ear after scrapping against London's shoulder in a lock up, paying attention to his fingers after a slap, ect. are all really subtle nuances of selling that Dragon does very well.

 

Charismatic? Like Benoit, people give Danielson the lack of charisma label. This is depiste the fact that both guys have a real connection with the crowd, can look at the crowd (or signal or something) to work them into a frenzy, and both have distinct personalities that come out in their matches. I don't see how that constitutes "no charisma". Danielson's harder-edge persona in ROH right now shows a lot of the obvious charisma to go along with what he has always had.

 

Hero isn't bad, but nobody in the indies (and very few wrestlers anywhere) come close to Danielson these days. His ability goes way beyond technical ability and just does everything the way it is supposed to be. I don't get the same from Hero.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

By the end of the year Teddy Hart will be considered the premier independent rassler in North America. Well on his way to Stamford, if not already there.

[Guest Markingout]

You are confusing selling with being "tired and blown up" in the 2/3's match against London.

 

No trust me. I am not. You can clearly see Danielson kind of tired and holding the restholds too long.

 

Sellling? Hero sells fine, but I don't see how he is better than Danielson. They both sell the obvious stuff really well so it is a throw up there. Danielson has all the nuances down though. Touching his ear after scrapping against London's shoulder in a lock up, paying attention to his fingers after a slap, ect. are all really subtle nuances of selling that Dragon does very well.

 

While Dragon sells the fine point of thing like you pointed out with the fingers and the ears Hero is just a better seller. He has a unique way too doing it too. No one can sell like him. Sure Dragon touches the finer point,but so does Hero. Homicide kicks Hero. You can tell Hero is into it in the match so he no sells for one second. He kicks Homicide,and then he sells. Like in real life if you are in a fight your adreline is running, and no matter how hard a hit you dont feel it till after. The thing I dont like about both is sometimes they both just no sell. Danielson does this alot when people chop him. An example is Road to Title,Bio-Hazard chops him about 2 minutes into it,and he no sells...

 

Mat Skills?  No.  Hero has the basics down really well.  So does Matt Stryker.  That doesn't mean either is the best wrestler in the world.  Danielson puts his mat work together in a much more convincing way.  A good bit of Hero's comes off as technically sound, but not as inspired as Danielson's.

 

Indeed. Danielson is better on the mat. Just not worlds ahead of Chris. Chris can definatly put it together also. Sometimes Hero just has some plain amazing sequences of chain wrestling where its unbelivable he counter back into his orignal hold. Still I agree Danielson is better.

 

Telling a Story?  Not close.  Again, Hero can tell a fine body part story, but so can two dozen other guys on the indies.  I know it is cliched, but everything Danielson does seems to serve a purpose and he is always doing something.  This isn't a slight to Hero's ability as much as it is a nod to Danielson, who maybe unparreled anywhere in the world when it comes to smart work and storytelling like this.

 

I think in this aspect Hero is better. Body stories are not all the man can pull if. If he is facing a smaller and faster. He grounds,and attacks the legs completely. I know Danielson does the same. But Hero does it so uniquely its hard too describe,and you just have too see it in a match.

 

Charismatic?  Like Benoit, people give Danielson the lack of charisma label.  This is depiste the fact that both guys have a real connection with the crowd, can look at the crowd (or signal or something) to work them into a frenzy, and both have distinct personalities that come out in their matches.  I don't see how that constitutes "no charisma".  Danielson's harder-edge persona in ROH right now shows a lot of the obvious charisma to go along with what he has always had.

 

This is the same thing I was talking about with Hero. Raw ability too connect too the crowd with energy. But what I meant by chrisma is when he is cutting a promo or in a segment backstage. You dont get anything. Its like no vibe or energy. Its just words.

 

Hero isn't bad, but nobody in the indies (and very few wrestlers anywhere) come close to Danielson these days. His ability goes way beyond technical ability and just does everything the way it is supposed to be. I don't get the same from Hero.

 

So in your opinion Bryan Danielson should be the steriotype of all wrestlers? I dont know I guess its all in opinion,but I think there is something missing in Danielson. Probabley his look or that too have an good match he has too use so many technical moves. I think Hero has alot more diversity in his moves. Still like I said before its all in opinion and taste in wrestlers I guess.

[The Kid 0]

My Stampede boys, TJ Wilson, Teddy Hart, Harry Smith and Jack Evans.

[The Kid 0]

Also about Evans. I saw Evans on MLW Underground TV this week. He sucks... He wrestled infront of 200 MLW fans who heard awesome things about him and he sucked. Dutt grounded him after a while and ended it early as Evans went nuts with spots,and almost killed himself smacking his head on the guardrail after a somersault plancha too the fallen Sonjay on the outside. He is sloppy.

 

You see one Jack Evans match and call him shit? The kid is amazing but he probably had cold feet from being in MLW. Keep watching him, catch more matches...I beg of you.

 

About 5 matches I have seen of Teddy. I have seen his TNA X-Cup work. An older match of his when he is 16 I think. He was facing Harry Smith who was 14 at the time. From 2000(I didnt expect much  ), and one of his latest matches from about May 2003 I think vs some guy named Duke Dango. Hart was suppose too play the underdog seeing as he is so much smaller than the 6'9 300 lbs+ Duke. Hart thought he was in there with Smith or Evans. It looked very bad. X-Cup were some of the best spotfests ever seen.

 

Do you mean Duke Durrango? Because he certainly isn't 6'9" and 300lbs.

 

Also Teddy for a guy that was trained by Stu his techniques look very fake,and his work is pretty basic compared you what else you see on the indy circuit. I agree he is easily one the best spotfesters in North America. His moves are usually done pretty crisply.

 

A common misconseption about these new Stampede guys, and even guys like Jericho and Storm is that they were not trained by Stu Hart. Bruce Hart trained them so you can not expect the same matwork from Ted as you can from Owen or Bret. When Teddy does pull out the spots it's normally the crispest you'll see of the move anywhere, he just floats in the air.

[Guest OSIcon]

No trust me. I am not. You can clearly see Danielson kind of tired and holding the restholds too long.

 

I've read a ton of reviews of that match and watched it a bunch of times myself. Not once have I seen someone come to that conclusion nor have I noticed that myself that Danielson was getting tired.

 

What are these rest holds you speak of? The half crab that Danielson won the second fall with and tries to win this fall with since London's leg is broken down? There is no way that can even possibly be considered a rest hold. Not to mention it wasn't kept on too long as no holds he used lost the crowd. That is the key. If the crowd falls asleep during a hold, it was on too long and/or should have not been put on in the first place. Saw none of those in that match. I don't really recall any other submissions late in the match (I don't believe there were any others). Correct me if I am wrong.

 

I've seen the match a bunch of times. After watching a match a few times, you notice little mistakes or things you didn't pick up before. I've never noticed Danielson being "tired" and you are the first person I have ever read who thinks that.

 

While Dragon sells the fine point of thing like you pointed out with the fingers and the ears Hero is just a better seller. He has a unique way too doing it too. No one can sell like him.

 

That's not very convincing. "He is a better seller." "No one can sell like him." Where's the reasons *why* his selling is so good? I guess "because it is unique" is a reason but that is pretty ambiguous. Hogan sells uniquely. He is certainly not good. What is unique about his selling that makes it *good* selling?

 

Sure Dragon touches the finer point,but so does Hero. Homicide kicks Hero. You can tell Hero is into it in the match so he no sells for one second. He kicks Homicide,and then he sells. Like in real life if you are in a fight your adreline is running, and no matter how hard a hit you dont feel it till after.  The thing I dont like about both is sometimes they both just no sell. Danielson does this alot when people chop him. An example is Road to Title,Bio-Hazard chops him about 2 minutes into it,and he no sells...

 

I agree. Though I don't see how them both doing something makes Hero's selling any better.

 

I think in this aspect Hero is better. Body stories are not all the man can pull if. If he is facing a smaller and faster. He grounds,and attacks the legs completely. I know Danielson does the same. But Hero does it so uniquely its hard too describe,and you just have too see it in a match.

 

I have seen him do it and it is just good body work. That's not a bad thing, but that work Hero does, I have seen plenty of other guys do it. Danielson's work goes a lot beyond just working over a body part or working a story that hits you in the face. Everything he does has some purpose. Sometimes multiple purposes. I've seen all of Hero's best work and nothing compares with the depth in emotion and story that Danielson brought to his 2/3 falls match with London. Watching Hero, he does do a good job on focusing in on what body part, but that is all. That is fine and you can still have good matches doing it, but he still lacks the ability to weave a match together that has so many little things beyond body part work.

 

This is the same thing I was talking about with Hero. Raw ability too connect too the crowd with energy. But what I meant by chrisma is when he is cutting a promo or in a segment backstage. You dont get anything. Its like no vibe or energy. Its just words.

 

I wasn't really counting promos. Honestly, I think I have watched on Hero promo and Danielson doesn't cut many. Both I think do an okay job. Danielson talks like a lot of people talk. It doesn't hamper his connection with the crowd, so I see it as no big deal. Either way, I was more commenting on the in-ring work since that is what we were basing out comparisons on.

 

So in your opinion Bryan Danielson should be the steriotype of all wrestlers? I dont know I guess its all in opinion,but I think there is something missing in Danielson. Probabley his look or that too have an good match he has too use so many technical moves. I think Hero has alot more diversity in his moves. Still like I said before its all in opinion and taste in wrestlers I guess.

 

I have no problem with his look. No, its not the best, but I really don't take looks into account when watching matches.

 

As for "having to use technical moves", what does that mean? His 2/3 falls London match was pretty simple. They worked hammerlocks and headlocks at the begginning. Are you counting stuff like that as "technical work"? His first match with London is a real solid and simple match without any matwork at all pretty much. His amtch against Daniels at the first Round Robin Challenge is another. There are plenty examples. Danielson uses matwork when it works. Hero actually uses it more from my experience, as nearly every Hero match I have seen has some sort of hold-counter hold section that goes beyond the basic "feeling out" portion (with headlocks, ect.). Using the fact that Danielson wrestles what you call a "technical style" against him is silly, especially when it isn't true that is all Danielson can do.

 

Danielson uses enough moves. None of his matches seem formulamatic which is the big point there. A guy can post out five new moves every match. Doesn't make him a good wrestler.

[Mystery Eskimo 0]

I'd give the edge to AmDrag, although I have seen a lot more of his matches.

 

Danielson vs Hero would be great, though.

 

Teddy wont breakout until he stops pissing people off, from all accounts..

[Guest The Last Free Voice]

Kid, what are some good Evan's matches to check out? I've seen the MLW match, which blew and Main Event Specticales, wich was spotty, but awesome.

[deancoles 0]

Those who have seen the latest FWA(in England) shows will agree that Birchill will be huge if he can get a spot in Ring of Honor,all he needs is a better Name and someone to talk for him.I can see him getting a developmental deal for wwe by the end of the year.

[DCMaximo 0]

Agreed, Birchill is a terrifying man, taking the Mike Awesome approach of big man who can do highflying, then improves upon it by doing some jawdropping stuff that Awesome couldn't do. I also see James Tighe being the next UK star to get some acclaim stateside.

 

Oh, and I'd love Cory Kastle to breakout this year. Of all the recent CZW students, him and Niles Young are the ones to me that combine a decent, if green, wrestling ability with some actual character.

[HollywoodSpikeJenkins 0]

Didn't Steve Corino say that Teddy was the only Hart to not be trained by his family? Or something along the lines of that?

[Guest Markingout]

I have no problem with his look. No, its not the best, but I really don't take looks into account when watching matches.

 

As for "having to use technical moves", what does that mean? His 2/3 falls London match was pretty simple. They worked hammerlocks and headlocks at the begginning. Are you counting stuff like that as "technical work"? His first match with London is a real solid and simple match without any matwork at all pretty much. His amtch against Daniels at the first Round Robin Challenge is another. There are plenty examples. Danielson uses matwork when it works. Hero actually uses it more from my experience, as nearly every Hero match I have seen has some sort of hold-counter hold section that goes beyond the basic "feeling out" portion (with headlocks, ect.). Using the fact that Danielson wrestles what you call a "technical style" against him is silly, especially when it isn't true that is all Danielson can do.

 

Danielson uses enough moves. None of his matches seem formulamatic which is the big point there. A guy can post out five new moves every match. Doesn't make him a good wrestler.

 

I dont know I kind I think the look of a wrestler is a very important thing too match because it definatly effects the beliveabilty of a match. No,I am not using that fact that Danielson is technical againest him I am simple saying his move set is quite bland thats what I meant. Sorry, I know that sounded stupid the way I stated it. I can't type for shit . Now,also what I am saying is I haven't seen Danielson work any other style than the slow type technical(headlocks and such count) type match. It effects my enjoyment.

 

Danielson uses enough moves. None of his matches seem formulamatic which is the big point there. A guy can post out five new moves every match. Doesn't make him a good wrestler.

 

I didn't say that all I said that he needs too add some diversity some people like his style,and some don't. Also if someone adds five new moves every match you are likely too have a better match because then you have better moves too imply,and surprise the crowd.

 

I was more commenting on the in-ring work since that is what we were basing out comparisons on.

 

Oh, well all around he dosent have chrisma. Benoit plays too the crowd alot more than Danielson. He seems too just be out there too work, not interact with the crowd even though he draws them in with workrate and good matches.

 

That's not very convincing. "He is a better seller." "No one can sell like him." Where's the reasons *why* his selling is so good? I guess "because it is unique" is a reason but that is pretty ambiguous. Hogan sells uniquely. He is certainly not good. What is unique about his selling that makes it *good* selling?

 

I understand where you are coming from,but its just too hard too describe you have too see his best matches too see what the man does. Also at this point I dont think either one of us will be convinced. You seem too be very strong on your opinion. I definatly respect that. I have Homicide vs Hero on my comp. I also have CM Punk vs Hero in the TLC match. Hit me on aim(RecklessXxXYouth) or MSN ([email protected]) if you want them.

[Guest OSIcon]

I understand where you are coming from,but its just too hard too describe you have too see his best matches too see what the man does. Also at this point I dont think either one of us will be convinced. You seem too be very strong on your opinion. I definatly respect that. I have Homicide vs Hero on my comp. I also have CM Punk vs Hero in the TLC match. Hit me on aim(RecklessXxXYouth) or MSN ([email protected]) if you want them.

 

That's not necesary. I have seen both of those matches along with a fairly wide variety of other Hero matches (vs. Ian Rotten, vs. Styles, vs. B-Boy, his TPI stuff, tag with Jimmy Jacobs against Alex Shelley/Danny Daniels, and a few other less notable matches). I've probably only seen a *little* bit more of Danielson than I have of Hero. I wouldn't have made any comparison between them if I hadn't seen what each has to offer.

 

I dont know I kind I think the look of a wrestler is a very important thing too match because it definatly effects the beliveabilty of a match.

 

I agree that a wrestler has to look legit. I just don't see what about Danielson's look makes him look "not believable". He is in good shape, has some muscle definition, ect. He looks like he could physcially be going everything he does. I don't see where you get that he doesn't look believable. If anything, Hero looks less believable from a pure "looks" standpoint because he isn't nearly in as good of shape from a physical standpoint (although his actual conditioning is good). I think the "look" argument is pretty weak unless we are discussing 150 pound kids with no muscles and big, out of shape slobs. Danielson is in good physical condition so I fail to see how he has a look that keeps him from being believable.

 

No,I am not using that fact that Danielson is technical againest him I am simple saying his move set is quite bland thats what I meant. Sorry, I know that sounded stupid the way I stated it. I can't type for shit . Now,also what I am saying is I haven't seen Danielson work any other style than the slow type technical(headlocks and such count) type match. It effects my enjoyment.

 

See, I still don't see this. I haven't watched one Danielson match where I've thought it was the same old stuff (unless of course he was playing off a previous match). Same with his moveset. Maybe it is just personal preference, but I really like his moveset. He has enough moves and most importantly, none are really goofy. I'll take a dragon suplex over Hero's silly piledriver variation any day of the week.

 

Same thing about him working the same style. Obviously a wrestler is going to have his style tha the goes with (even Hero does) but there is a lot of variation in his matches. His 2/3 Falls match against London is a lot different than his 1/11 match against Somoa Joe or his 11/1 match against Styles, ect. Obviously he is going to wrestle the same basic style, but the matches ARE different. Not opinion, just fact. Every Hero match I have seen, Hero has a set way he wrestles. There is variation in the pacing, some moves, and story, but overall the same style. That is fine and to be expected. I don't see how Hero varies his matches up more than Dragon.

 

I didn't say that all I said that he needs too add some diversity some people like his style,and some don't. Also if someone adds five new moves every match you are likely too have a better match because then you have better moves too imply,and surprise the crowd.

 

I don't agree that adding five new moves a match makes it a better match. I don't see how new moves equates to "good match". Yes, they may surprise the crowd. Of course, Dragon still gets his matches over with the crowd fine by using signiture spots with different moves thrown in here and there. If using new moves every match that pops the crowd is a big factor in a wrestler being good, then we would be talking about M-Dogg 20 and not Danielson.

 

Oh, well all around he dosent have chrisma. Benoit plays too the crowd alot more than Danielson. He seems too just be out there too work, not interact with the crowd even though he draws them in with workrate and good matches.

 

This makes me think you haven't see enough of Danielson's current work. Watch him heel it up on the crowd and AJ in his 11/1 match. He constantly interacts with the crowd and taunts AJ. In the 2/3 falls match he interacts with the crowd A LOT. Putting his hand to his hear in a mocking fashion when the fans chant for London, pointing to London saying he is finished when looking out at the crowd, looking with intensity to his cheering section as he gets up to start the second fall, clapping his hands and mocking chanting for London (to mock his fans), ect. That is all from one match. Danielson didn't come right out of the gate with this crowd interaction and charisma, but he has developed it a lot and now has it down pat.

 

I think you mentioned seeing the 4/12 match, so I don't know how you possibly missed all of Dragon's crowd interaction in it. But it is there. Pick up the 11/1 ROH show and watch him bring a lot of that and more to his match with Styles.

 

I think it less of a "agree to disagree" issue than it is just not seeing what Dragon actually offers. It is not my opinion that he plays to the crowd in his recent matches, it is fact.

[The Kid 0]

Kid, what are some good Evan's matches to check out? I've seen the MLW match, which blew and Main Event Specticales, wich was spotty, but awesome.

I can't really recomend any because the best I've seen him was in Stampede Wrestling, Jack says that he's going to upload some matches soon so hopefully you can see them then.

[Guest Markingout]

I understand where you are coming from,but its just too hard too describe you have too see his best matches too see what the man does. Also at this point I dont think either one of us will be convinced. You seem too be very strong on your opinion. I definatly respect that. I have Homicide vs Hero on my comp. I also have CM Punk vs Hero in the TLC match. Hit me on aim(RecklessXxXYouth) or MSN ([email protected]) if you want them.

 

That's not necesary. I have seen both of those matches along with a fairly wide variety of other Hero matches (vs. Ian Rotten, vs. Styles, vs. B-Boy, his TPI stuff, tag with Jimmy Jacobs against Alex Shelley/Danny Daniels, and a few other less notable matches). I've probably only seen a *little* bit more of Danielson than I have of Hero. I wouldn't have made any comparison between them if I hadn't seen what each has to offer.

 

I dont know I kind I think the look of a wrestler is a very important thing too match because it definatly effects the beliveabilty of a match.

 

I agree that a wrestler has to look legit. I just don't see what about Danielson's look makes him look "not believable". He is in good shape, has some muscle definition, ect. He looks like he could physcially be going everything he does. I don't see where you get that he doesn't look believable. If anything, Hero looks less believable from a pure "looks" standpoint because he isn't nearly in as good of shape from a physical standpoint (although his actual conditioning is good). I think the "look" argument is pretty weak unless we are discussing 150 pound kids with no muscles and big, out of shape slobs. Danielson is in good physical condition so I fail to see how he has a look that keeps him from being believable.

 

No,I am not using that fact that Danielson is technical againest him I am simple saying his move set is quite bland thats what I meant. Sorry, I know that sounded stupid the way I stated it. I can't type for shit . Now,also what I am saying is I haven't seen Danielson work any other style than the slow type technical(headlocks and such count) type match. It effects my enjoyment.

 

See, I still don't see this. I haven't watched one Danielson match where I've thought it was the same old stuff (unless of course he was playing off a previous match). Same with his moveset. Maybe it is just personal preference, but I really like his moveset. He has enough moves and most importantly, none are really goofy. I'll take a dragon suplex over Hero's silly piledriver variation any day of the week.

 

Same thing about him working the same style. Obviously a wrestler is going to have his style tha the goes with (even Hero does) but there is a lot of variation in his matches. His 2/3 Falls match against London is a lot different than his 1/11 match against Somoa Joe or his 11/1 match against Styles, ect. Obviously he is going to wrestle the same basic style, but the matches ARE different. Not opinion, just fact. Every Hero match I have seen, Hero has a set way he wrestles. There is variation in the pacing, some moves, and story, but overall the same style. That is fine and to be expected. I don't see how Hero varies his matches up more than Dragon.

 

I didn't say that all I said that he needs too add some diversity some people like his style,and some don't. Also if someone adds five new moves every match you are likely too have a better match because then you have better moves too imply,and surprise the crowd.

 

I don't agree that adding five new moves a match makes it a better match. I don't see how new moves equates to "good match". Yes, they may surprise the crowd. Of course, Dragon still gets his matches over with the crowd fine by using signiture spots with different moves thrown in here and there. If using new moves every match that pops the crowd is a big factor in a wrestler being good, then we would be talking about M-Dogg 20 and not Danielson.

 

Oh, well all around he dosent have chrisma. Benoit plays too the crowd alot more than Danielson. He seems too just be out there too work, not interact with the crowd even though he draws them in with workrate and good matches.

 

This makes me think you haven't see enough of Danielson's current work. Watch him heel it up on the crowd and AJ in his 11/1 match. He constantly interacts with the crowd and taunts AJ. In the 2/3 falls match he interacts with the crowd A LOT. Putting his hand to his hear in a mocking fashion when the fans chant for London, pointing to London saying he is finished when looking out at the crowd, looking with intensity to his cheering section as he gets up to start the second fall, clapping his hands and mocking chanting for London (to mock his fans), ect. That is all from one match. Danielson didn't come right out of the gate with this crowd interaction and charisma, but he has developed it a lot and now has it down pat.

 

I think you mentioned seeing the 4/12 match, so I don't know how you possibly missed all of Dragon's crowd interaction in it. But it is there. Pick up the 11/1 ROH show and watch him bring a lot of that and more to his match with Styles.

 

I think it less of a "agree to disagree" issue than it is just not seeing what Dragon actually offers. It is not my opinion that he plays to the crowd in his recent matches, it is fact.

I did see the match from Epic Encounter. I was talking about in general. One match were he plays too the crowd the right amount he should of. Heel Danielson = pretty cool. I havent seen the one from Night of The Butcher though. I have ASE on DVD. Or are you talking about the new 11/1 with the four way and Danielson vs Styles? Talking of Danielson and his razon-straight Chris Benoit esque personality, I remember at ASE where he comes out and he starts too laugh before his match with Paul London. That kinda killed his whole personality for me at that show because his laugh is so funny looking. Its unforgetable.

 

I'll take a dragon suplex over Hero's silly piledriver variation any day of the week.

 

I agree. The only thing I like about the piledriver is how great it matches Hero look. Makes him looks pretty damn strong too lift some one up by having there feet crossed.

 

I don't see how Hero varies his matches up more than Dragon.

 

Sometimes he works pure techincal, and ground opponents. Sometimes he goes out,and works a lucha style like vs Trent Acid at Redefined.

 

I don't agree that adding five new moves a match makes it a better match.  I don't see how new moves equates to "good match".  Yes, they may surprise the crowd.  Of course, Dragon still gets his matches over with the crowd fine by using signiture spots with different moves thrown in here and there.  If using new moves every match that pops the crowd is a big factor in a wrestler being good, then we would be talking about M-Dogg 20 and not Danielson.

 

I never said it makes a good match. What I ment by the emplying statement was that its better too have a new move too work on the neck rather than the same neckbreaker that ever wrestler can do.

 

 

Danielson didn't come right out of the gate with this crowd interaction and charisma, but he has developed it a lot and now has it down pat.

 

What matches should I check out then? I have seen his match with PL at Epic Encounter,the match with AJ at ASE,and where there any other awesome ones you said too me?

[Sandman9000 0]

I think we all can agree that someone needed to book Hero vs. AmDrag last week.