Scott Keith gave HHH/HBK ****3/4

[Guest wildpegasus]

*Tunes in to see HHH give HBK a backbreaker.*

 

*See's HBK sell it like it actually means something*

 

*Chuckles to self cause "been there, done that, don't care" and goes back to watching Firefly DVD*

 

I can't imagine this match being anything more than the usual shit.

 

*Reads MrZ's post*

 

*laughs*

*Sees Firefly mentioned in Rudo's post. Laughs*

 

I'm sorry... what were you saying?

 

Oh and this match had actual suspense, Benoit/Lesnar did not. Also, whenever I rewatch Benoit "passing out" in the Brock Lock I literally bust out into laughter. I've seen better acting in the Star Wars prequels. Also, these two guys weren't using the SmackDown "I wish this was MMA" Main Event style that's become REALLY passe.

I can easily be you.

 

 

 

James Bond sucks. There I did it. Seriously, I don't really think Bond sucks but this is what you do with Benoit. All I ask is to please look at thinks more objectably. Thanks.

[El Psycho Diablo 0]

I can easily be you.

 

        James Bond sucks. There I did it. Seriously, I don't really think Bond sucks but this is what you do with Benoit. All I ask is to please look at thinks more objectably. Thanks.

Now, wait a moment.

 

He gave actual reasons WHY he didn't like Benoit/Lesnar, and you retaliate with an insult to something that's entirely off the subject.

 

Benoit isn't the best actor in the world, or even in the federation. It's more than believable that someone didn't like his selling. Just because a lot of the IWC is too attached to the guy to notice his faults dosen't mean everyone does. As much as I dislike Trips, when he feels like selling he can..even though he's injured half the time, so it may have been legit pain. Who knows?

[Guest wildpegasus]

I can easily be you.

 

         James Bond sucks. There I did it. Seriously, I don't really think Bond sucks but this is what you do with Benoit. All I ask is to please look at thinks more objectably. Thanks.

Now, wait a moment.

 

He gave actual reasons WHY he didn't like Benoit/Lesnar, and you retaliate with an insult to something that's entirely off the subject.

 

Benoit isn't the best actor in the world, or even in the federation. It's more than believable that someone didn't like his selling. Just because a lot of the IWC is too attached to the guy to notice his faults dosen't mean everyone does. As much as I dislike Trips, when he feels like selling he can..even though he's injured half the time, so it may have been legit pain. Who knows?

I call them as I see them. I don't mind Mr. Zaaz but he OBVIOUSLY writes stuff to get a reaction and unless he's truly led himself to believe what he's saying he's obviously out to get people's dandruff up. That's part of his gimmick. I'm just wishing he'd more honest more of the time as his act is getting tiresome. That's all. I'm a nice guy. I don't mean to insult anyone.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Then, then, then..

 

What do *I* do?

 

I don't think this was to piss people off so much as it was to benoit-hate... Mr. Z is a HHH mark, that should s'plain some things.

[AndrewTS 0]

I call them as I see them. I don't mind Mr. Zaaz but he OBVIOUSLY writes stuff to get a reaction and unless he's truly led himself to believe what he's saying he's obviously out to get people's dandruff up. That's part of his gimmick. I'm just wishing he'd more honest more of the time as his act is getting tiresome. That's all. I'm a nice guy. I don't mean to insult anyone.

 

Yup, good points. He should really just be ignored.

 

*Zsa proceeds casts to a Filipino as a Japanese Ninja wrestler, because all Asians look and sound alike*

[Betty Houle 0]

The problem with his marks today is that they do not realize it is no longer pre 1996. Shawn is just a shell of his former self. He puts on one above average performance and all of sudden it is 5 star match.

Three of the most memorable matches this year (a rather unmemorable year) were HBK-Jericho, the HBK Survivor Series performance, and HBK-HHH. He's not his former self but he's still providing some exciting, memorable wrestling!

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Oh and this match had actual suspense, Benoit/Lesnar did not.

 

What do you mean it didn't? That match had many elements going into it of a possible title win. Benoit MADE that match great because you could tell by the workrate that in your heart you could have sworn he would leave the champion even though you read the spoiler already. He MADE the crowd go apeshit for him. They BELIEVED in him. He teased the title win and made the match even better by kicking out of the F5, a very credible move. Hell, he made Brock tap out again to the Crossface, but of course got fucked over as usual. Yes, he lost another title match, but he left with his head high.

 

 

And somebody please tell me what's the point of making HBK the World Heavyweight Champion again? Oh yeah, so Michaels can have another meaningless one month reign.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Don't forget how succesful there last trade was.....

[Guest Goodear]

*Tunes in to see HHH give HBK a backbreaker.*

 

*See's HBK sell it like it actually means something*

 

Yes, RRR they built off a prior match by having the side backbreaker that Triple H uses almost exclusively against Shawn back into play. But this time (much more intelligently than the last), the back work didn't last half as long and was basically broken up by Shawn battling back and colliding with the ringside steps with his shoulder. So coupling that with Shawn actually being in a ring many times already and knowing that his back isn't going to shatter with a common move it looks like you're complaining about the fact that he bumped.

 

*Chuckles to self cause "been there, done that, don't care" and goes back to watching Firefly DVD*

 

Because you don't like a wrestling match with Triple H and Shawn Michaels in it based more on principle than on the actual action. Insert Benoit into Shawn's role here and we all know just how much you'd be creaming your shorts.

 

I can't imagine this match being anything more than the usual shit.

 

You'd be wrong. This was a marked improvement on the Hardcore match with better selling and more interesting transitions. The pacing was also much improved.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

Don't knock the match untill you've watched it. Goodear is totally right. If anyone else was in there, people would be creaming in their pants. I liked HBK v HHH from last year MUCH more than the Benoit v Lesnar match from Smackdown. The only match this year I've liked more than HHH v HBK was in Ring of Honor between Samoa Joe and Homicide. I suppose only time will tell if HBK v HHH from RAW is better.

Edited December 31, 2003 by Haraga_Version_One

[Hektik 0]

...Shawn was being shoved down my throat and having to hear how "KeWL HBK WaZ."

Your name makes this one of the most ironic statements I've ever read....

That is really funny, you try to discredit me by attacking my internet name. Yet, you have no idea why I use that name or why I spell it that way.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Don't knock the match untill you've watched it. Goodear is totally right. If anyone else was in there, people would be creaming in their pants. I liked HBK v HHH from last year MUCH more than the Benoit v Lesnar match from Smackdown. The only match this year I've liked more than HHH v HBK was in Ring of Honor between Samoa Joe and Homicide. I suppose only time will tell if HBK v HHH from RAW is better.

Guess I may as well as comment on this match:

 

HBK vs HHH was a definite improvement over their previous matches. In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen such a difference in match quality from one match to the next. This creamed their previous bouts. In fact, I expected more people to be giving it high ratings such as Keith did but I sense a little bit of fear around the net for rating matches too high and than getting critised for it. The match was pretty exciting overall but to me I didn't find it as exciting as Benoit vs Lesnar since that was one of my favourite matches of all time. From anywhere. I won't take any points away for stupid stuff such as Raw obviously giving away the winner before the match started because that's not fair. I usually try to shut stuff like that out my mind so as not to affect me watcing the bout too much. The transistions in the bout were pretty interesting and I found myself a fan of HHH's selling throughout. Michaels wasn't especially with his arm but I don't really think he cares about that. His offence is also weak at times but somewhat passable as it isn't Rock level bad or anything. He brought charisma to the table and hit his moves at nice times. Overall, one of my favourite bouts for either HHH or Michaels.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

The match in my opinion was off the charts good. I was watching it and said to someone, "TNA has no chance they should just close up shop because this is a monopoly that will never be stopped."

 

But then they had the ending and it just killed me, as well as the crowd, and just gave more reason to believe the WWE will never give you what you want. The good guy will never win, Crips will never lose and recycled has-beens will continue to control the show.

 

Austin was great back in the day but his career is done, there is no sense to bring him back now other than to pop the crowd. And that's fine but instead of relying on a Austin pop they should be creating other stars to get a pop. Y2J's pop right now should be defeaning as well as RVD's and even Booker to some extent. But it's not. Because they don't try to create stars and just stay lazy and rely on others who never really did much in the first place.

 

A guy like Bischoff should never be on the show because he's just a recycled old character. Someone new should take his place or don't even have a GM because it brings nothing to the show besides sucking air time from others more deserving.

 

For example, VKM should never be on the show, he should be replaced as the company's figurehead by Shane. It's evolution of the McMahon family.

 

If the WWE really believes in evolution, they need to kill off those who made an imapct during the Attitude era, because by trying to revive their careers (Goldberg, NWO, Austin, Foley, HBK, continuous Crips push all of whom have never made any ratings impact) they have further damaged the company.

 

The company, no matter how good this one match was, is still doing poorly with PPV buys, merchandise, house shows etc.

 

That will continue in 2004.

 

Believe me this time next year we will not be talking about a year of evolution of the product (ie. the year WWE did it right) but rather still criticizing Crips and the idiocy's of VKM and family.

 

I'm sure of that by just watching the main event ending of Raw this past Monday.

 

The last 3 Raw programs, I saw an unecessary Evolution sweep, Foley get disrespected on such a poor level I still can't get over it and Crips keeping the belt when the fans were begging for a change.

 

This is not evolution of the product but rather a complete middle finger to the fans.

 

I said this in 2002 and 2001, I'm hoping I won't say this in 2004, but I bet I will.

 

Hopefully I'll be smart enough after a trip to WMXX to make a decision that having my intelligence insulted has to conclude.

[Guest vicvenomjr]

And one other thing guys like Maven, Jindrak, Bautista, Cade, Orton are just not going to do it.

 

They all look the same and talk the same. People can stand Brock because he's got the background but most fans are tired of the roided out wrestlers who can not talk and whose in ring rotation is very boring and just totally not entertaining in any and every way. This for the most part is almost every OVW grad on the Raw roster.

 

I'm not saying that spot artists are needed but just rasslers who are creative on the mike and always in motion in the ring.

 

To me I see no one who can be a break out star on Raw, that is why 2004 will be 2003 as was 2002.

 

As a result HHH will be forced to continue to carry the ball because he's killed all of his challengers and won't job out to anyone boring. Thye don't call him the Game for nothing.

 

The Attitude era was a success because the guys were darn entertaining, the future can be to if entertainers are on the horizon.

 

But they're not.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

The match in my opinion was off the charts good. I was watching it and said to someone, "TNA has no chance they should just close up shop because this is a monopoly that will never be stopped."

 

Excuse me, but how the hell can all of your TNA worshipping be changed by ONE match. Like TNA, WWE has been going down for a LONG time. One amazing match doesn't change that. What it DOES do is show is that WWE CAN put on great matches when they have the right motivation.

 

Austin was great back in the day but his career is done, there is no sense to bring him back now other than to pop the crowd. And that's fine but instead of relying on a Austin pop they should be creating other stars to get a pop. Y2J's pop right now should be defeaning as well as RVD's and even Booker to some extent. But it's not. Because they don't try to create stars and just stay lazy and rely on others who never really did much in the first place.

 

You know something ? You're making a LOT more sense here than you do in the TNA folder.

 

If the WWE really believes in evolution, they need to kill off those who made an imapct during the Attitude era, because by trying to revive their careers (Goldberg, NWO, Austin, Foley, HBK, continuous Crips push all of whom have never made any ratings impact) they have further damaged the company.

 

To be honest, it was WWE's fault that Goldberg didn't go over. They didn't push him right, and that was the problem. And also, I like HBK, so I'm glad that he's back, and he's proved time and time again he can still go. Backstage bullshit aside, HBK is a super wrestler.

 

Believe me this time next year we will not be talking about a year of evolution of the product (ie. the year WWE did it right) but rather still criticizing Crips and the idiocy's of VKM and family.

 

I would say that WWE did it right in 2000, with amazing show after amazing show, and everything was amazingly done. As for next year, you're right. WWE aren't going to change, because they totally suck.

[Sonic Reducer 0]

It was at least a **** match ... the selling was better than I've seen in a while by both men.

[Guest MikeSC]

The match in my opinion was off the charts good. I was watching it and said to someone, "TNA has no chance they should just close up shop because this is a monopoly that will never be stopped."

Excuse me, but how the hell can all of your TNA worshipping be changed by ONE match. Like TNA, WWE has been going down for a LONG time. One amazing match doesn't change that. What it DOES do is show is that WWE CAN put on great matches when they have the right motivation.

Man, I wish I had TNN here in Florida. Well, I'll be back in SC soon enough, but I had to friggin' miss the match. We shouldn't be shocked that they did that finish, though, as it happened at Armageddon (I was shocked it wasn't played up more) and it would be REAL odd to take the belt off of HHH so quickly in a show that won't likely have a great rating.

Austin was great back in the day but his career is done, there is no sense to bring him back now other than to pop the crowd. And that's fine but instead of relying on a Austin pop they should be creating other stars to get a pop. Y2J's pop right now should be defeaning as well as RVD's and even Booker to some extent. But it's not. Because they don't try to create stars and just stay lazy and rely on others who never really did much in the first place.

 

You know something ? You're making a LOT more sense here than you do in the TNA folder.

I noticed that, too. Odd, huh?

If the WWE really believes in evolution, they need to kill off those who made an imapct during the Attitude era, because by trying to revive their careers (Goldberg, NWO, Austin, Foley, HBK, continuous Crips push all of whom have never made any ratings impact) they have further damaged the company.

 

To be honest, it was WWE's fault that Goldberg didn't go over. They didn't push him right, and that was the problem.

But "pushing him right" is destructive to the company. "Pushing him right" does a bang-up job of making sure that mid-carders have absolutely no shot at breaking through as ME-ers.

And also, I like HBK, so I'm glad that he's back, and he's proved time and time again he can still go. Backstage bullshit aside, HBK is a super wrestler.

Agreed. I don't give a damn about how he was backstage. In the ring, he brought it. He carries slugs to good matches.

Believe me this time next year we will not be talking about a year of evolution of the product (ie. the year WWE did it right) but rather still criticizing Crips and the idiocy's of VKM and family.

 

I would say that WWE did it right in 2000, with amazing show after amazing show, and everything was amazingly done. As for next year, you're right. WWE aren't going to change, because they totally suck.

They did it AMAZINGLY well in 2000 --- until Kreski left. But you can't ignore how BADLY things dropped off between No Mercy 2000 (not a lights-out show, but a damned good show that was not fully appreciated) and Survivor Series and Armageddon 2000.

-=Mike

[Guest PowerPB13]

Never thought I'd be defending Keith, but hey, one man's four-star match is another man's DUD. You can argue technicalities all you want, but if the match entertains a person, then it's done its job as far as that person is concerned.

 

Keith liked the match and said so, more power to him. Upon second viewing, I enjoyed the match a LOT more than I did the first time around.

 

Others didn't like the match as much, whether it was for in-ring reasons or personal dislike for who the participants were...more power to them.

 

I tend to shy away from giving star ratings, simply because, as I said, a match that may entertain one person may not entertain a different person with a different perspective on wrestling. "Match quality", in my view, means different things to different people.

 

-Patrick

[Jack_Bauer 0]

Man, I wish I had TNN here in Florida. Well, I'll be back in SC soon enough, but I had to friggin' miss the match. We shouldn't be shocked that they did that finish, though, as it happened at Armageddon (I was shocked it wasn't played up more) and it would be REAL odd to take the belt off of HHH so quickly in a show that won't likely have a great rating

 

Tell me something, do you expect HBK to win the rematch ? You may be surprised, but I think HBK will win.

 

But "pushing him right" is destructive to the company. "Pushing him right" does a bang-up job of making sure that mid-carders have absolutely no shot at breaking through as ME-ers

 

Right noww, ANY proper push is better than what they are doing.

[SuperJerk 0]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but how big a scale is Scott Keith using? I'm not familar enough with his reviews to know this for 100% certain.

 

It sounds like 5 stars is the limit, but I've yet to see anyone come right out and say what kind of a scale you're using.

 

I could come out here and say I thought Bossman vs. D'Lo Brown from an episode of Heat earned ***** and forget to mention it was on a twenty star scale, couldn't I?

 

 

BTW, this argument isn't nearly as silly as when the pre-PPV Crossfaces articles would include arguments about how many quarter stars matches that hadn't even happened yet should get.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yes, RRR they built off a prior match by having the side backbreaker that Triple H uses almost exclusively against Shawn back into play. But this time (much more intelligently than the last), the back work didn't last half as long and was basically broken up by Shawn battling back and colliding with the ringside steps with his shoulder. So coupling that with Shawn actually being in a ring many times already and knowing that his back isn't going to shatter with a common move it looks like you're complaining about the fact that he bumped.

 

No, I'm complaining because in all of his previous matches the back work meant NOTHING - why would this time be the exception? That's the price you pay for no-selling; it limits anyones (besides the HBK mark who pops for anything HBK) emotional investment in that work since they know it won't go anywhere. I saw the backwork, again "been there, done that, don't care", I went back to watching the DVD.

 

Because you don't like a wrestling match with Triple H and Shawn Michaels in it based more on principle than on the actual action.

 

No, it just takes more to get me into it. I praised Michaels/Jericho RAW, to an extent (hated the finish, enjoyed some of the mat work in the beginning). As for HHH vs. HBK matches exclusively, there's nothing "there" for me to get into. There's no reason other than being a HHH or HBK fan to watch these matches.

 

Insert Benoit into Shawn's role here and we all know just how much you'd be creaming your shorts.

 

I didn't really enjoy Benoit/HHH as much as most people do, so I dunno bout that. There's reason for me to cheer Benoit, there's no reason for me to cheer Michaels - to get behind Michaels - so you might have something here.

 

You'd be wrong. This was a marked improvement on the Hardcore match with better selling and more interesting transitions. The pacing was also much improved.

 

Nah. People always overrate Michaels' matches. Whether it be the Hardcore match, or his match with Jericho at WM, or his Survivor Series performance. If I watched this, I'd be disappointed in it, then bitch about it for a long time, and people would start crying and there'd be the whole mess.

[Guest Goodear]

Nah. People always overrate Michaels' matches. Whether it be the Hardcore match, or his match with Jericho at WM, or his Survivor Series performance. If I watched this, I'd be disappointed in it, then bitch about it for a long time, and people would start crying and there'd be the whole mess.

 

The Hardcore Match is overrated, the Jericho match is overrated, the Iron Man match should be a testiment to the fact that a long match doesn't equate to a good match but still some people like it. But this match was good.

 

Wrestlemania X just for those keeping score is actually underrated now after the big splurge that happened right after the fact. People talk about gimmick matches sometimes like they're easier to pull off than a normal one (which is true to an extent) but it still takes a greaqt deal of talent to pull a really good one off. Ramon-Michaels was a great one... TLCs not so much.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Goodear are you kidding me? WM10 is one of THE most overrated matches of all-time.

[Guest Goodear]

Wouldn't be underrated if most people loved it to death now would it? Seriously, the ladder match is a spot fest but its just about the best spot fest I have ever seen with nice and brutal ladder spots that no one ever replicated (like Michaels using the ladder like a spear on Ramon). Some of the best garbage fu you'll ever see and far superior to the TLC's and any ECW brawl.

[Tawren 0]

Goodear are you kidding me? WM10 is one of THE most overrated matches of all-time.

Finally someone says it. HBK/Razor is OKAY, but no fucking way is it *****. Their SummerSlam 95 match was better anyways.

[Guest The Greek Physique]

*** match.

 

2 ref bumps? Dusty finish? Bischoff? Absolutely nothing new from either man, the same old same old... which is typical WWE matches. Let's not kid ourselves, HHH doesn't deserve any accolades when the only guy he seems to put out for is his buddy HBK.

 

IMO, many internet/wrestling writers and reporters NEED to keep their contacts, so to slap an extra star here and there to make the WWE happy, whether it is significant or not, is just a way to watch your own ass.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

Wouldn't be underrated if most people loved it to death now would it? Seriously, the ladder match is a spot fest but its just about the best spot fest I have ever seen with nice and brutal ladder spots that no one ever replicated (like Michaels using the ladder like a spear on Ramon). Some of the best garbage fu you'll ever see and far superior to the TLC's and any ECW brawl.

The rematch has better spots and some, although not much, psychology. Benoit/Jericho is better and the TLC's have bigger spots.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The No Mercy 99 Ladder Match made all those which came before obsolete.

[Garth 0]

I've just watched the HBK/HHH match over here in the UK, i tuned in about 5 minutes in i think, so i can't really give it a rating. But they were doing something right if they had me on the edge of my seat totally into the match, even though i knew the finish.

[Jack_Bauer 0]

I would go as far as to maybe say ****1/4. The match was really amazing, and it was SLIGHTLY better than their Summerslam match from 2002. It's also the best Triple H match since the famous Triple H killing Tag match from 2001.