From RandyOrton.net about Raw match....

[2GOLD 0]

One side really hates Orton so much they refuse to give him an ounce of credit, saying it was all RVD.

 

One side hates RVD so much they refuse to give him an ounce of credit, saying it was all Orton.

 

Hell, I dislike Orton, I consider him nothing more than a Lex Luger clone and even I give the guy credit when he deserves some. But Orton is admitting he had a minor concussion and that RVD basically told him what to do for 80% of the match, including more than likely the leg scissors since it allowed Orton time to fix his head.

 

Orton deserves credit for being able to finish the match knocked out of his head and RVD deserves credit for calling a rather decent match and helping Randy through his moves. It was a solid match and they both had something to do with it.

 

Orton deserves props as does RVD.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Since Randy did have a concussion, did ANYONE take into account that the concussion MIGHT be the reason why the leg scissors hold wasn't held on that tightly? I mean, I've been knocked pretty bad once before and frankly, the senses aren't all there.

 

Now that I think about it, that top rope DDT was a pretty ballsy call by RVD (as the whole match probably was changed on the fly). Think about it. This guy can barely keep his head totally in the game, and you are trusting him not to kill you with a move that is basically a Spike DDT (as in similar to the Spike Piledriver, not the wrestler). Mind you it IS RVD, but still, I mean, I wouldn't have called it.

 

...and is it me, or is RVD the ONLY guy left who makes the DDT look like a killer move?

[Guest Ghettoman]

I'm trying to no avail to let people know there is a difference between carrying someone and guiding the match.

 

Like I said, if RVD "carried" the match, to nothing greater than **3/4, then he sucks. But thats only to anyone suggesting he completely carried the match.

 

Pick apart everything wrong with that match, 90% of it is on RVD. If he carried the match, then he would of been making up for a shitty Orton performance, but Orton's performance was anything but shitty. You can suck, and still guide a match, especially if you suck at guiding it.

 

I'm just trying to get some actual wrestling logic into this crazy world of unpaid, unknowing critics....

[CanadianChick 0]

...and is it me, or is RVD the ONLY guy left who makes the DDT look like a killer move?

Of course. That's why he's ever the only one to get pinned with it. No one else jobs to a DDT except him because he makes in look that sick. But come to think of it, doesn't Jimmy Yang take the DDT like that too?

[Guest Ghettoman]

Oh and for the RVD/DDT question, Jimmy Yang's shown some promise of taking over that role in the future.

[2GOLD 0]

So, in your logically mind, carrying someone who isn't sure of their name and bleeding to a ** 1/2 match that needed to changed on the fly is bad work?

 

And everything involving the timing, is the fault of RVD? Because RVD should be able to work out perfect timing with a dizzy man who probably thought HE was RVD.

 

And that DDT was insanity but Orton said he was back to close to normal for the ending doesn't he? I'm curious to know what the match intially looked like.

 

RVD though sells a DDT like no ones business. He makes you think it's going to snap his neck in half.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Oh and for the RVD/DDT question, Jimmy Yang's shown some promise of taking over that role in the future.

Didn't Yang take a DDT from someone in WCW around ... I think late 2000(?) and everyone thought his neck was broken?

 

I was quite sure of that... I think it was against Natural Born Thrillers.

 

But yah, Yang sells the DDT very Godly like.

 

RVD still owns the DDT selling though.

 

...sigh, I wish everyone else could sell the DDT well. Not many do.

[Guest Ghettoman]

So, in your logically mind, carrying someone who isn't sure of their name and bleeding to a ** 1/2 match that needed to changed on the fly is bad work?

 

Orton was nowhere near what your making the situation out to be, if he was working well on offense, which he was, then there's no way you can suggest RVD is responsible for the best of that match when the best of that match happened in Orton's control.

 

Your trying to make it out like RVD literally carried a corpse around the ring for the entire match.

[Guest Anglesault]

Because the hold wasn't rock solid your down on the whole match?

I really didn't enjoy seeing a hold that Rob CLEARLY could have wiggled out of being employed multiple times for good chunks of time so the match could end with a DDT.

I hate this theory so much. Kayfabe-wise, you don't know how you're going to beat your opponent if you manage to get the win

Kayfabe wise you always build toward your finisher.

[NYU 0]

Your trying to make it out like RVD literally carried a corpse around the ring for the entire match.

And you're trying to make it seem like that it was an INCREDIBLY shitty match, and that any redeeming value in it can be completely attributed to Randy Orton. The rest of the match - which you have stated you hated already - can be attributed to RVD. Orton was "on" that night and is completely responsible for any good in that match, despite the fact that he admits Van Dam led him through it.

 

That line of thinking seems just as incorrect in this situation.

[Guest Ghettoman]

RVD in control= Shit typical RVD match.

 

Orton in control= Better than your average WWE main event.

 

I don't care who led who into what spots, when Orton was on offense, clearly aware of what was going on, the match was incredibly better.

 

If you want to say RVD "carried" the match, then your doing him a terrible diservice. If you want to say he led parts of the match and showed some awareness after the ring post spot, then I'll agree.

 

And no, I loved the match, mostly when Orton was controlling it, because thats when it was better.

[Highland 0]

Orton had a minor concussion, RVD guided him through the match, and they both clicked.

Result: Decent match that given the circumstances, could have been alot worse.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Always build to your finisher? Like a lot of the head and neck work? Or how about the rib work that would of eliminated the effectiveness of the 5-star? Which one AS?

[Guest Anglesault]

Orton in control= Better than your average WWE main event.

.

In the sense that Yogi is smarter than the average bear.

[Guest Anglesault]

Always build to your finisher? Like a lot of the head and neck work?

Right.

 

That was a good move by him.

 

Or how about the rib work that would of eliminated the effectiveness of the 5-star?

 

The move that RVD was attempting when Orton had to crotch him (rather than the eight hours of rib work causing RVD to die on the top rope)

 

I just feel that if you're gonna spend all that time on a bad looking rest hold, give it some kind of pay off.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Why? The hold wasn't building to anything, it was simply a wear down tactic that could or could not of been effective later on. I mean hell, go get on Benoit for his Sharpshooter if thats your beef.

[Guest Anglesault]

a) The Sharpshooter is of of Benoit's finishers.

 

b) Benoit's Sharpshooter isn't a boring ass spot.

 

c) Benoit's Sharpshooter doesn't look like shit.

[Guest Ghettoman]

1. Never finished a match with it.

 

2. Neither was the leg scissors.

 

3. Define shit, and then go ahead and tell me how that has to do with what you said your problem with the hold was, it not factoring into the finish.

 

Good luck.

[Guest Anglesault]

1. Never finished a match with it.

Wrong.

 

2. Neither was the leg scissors.

 

No, it was ENTERTAINING~! laying down and doing nothing.

 

3. Define shit

 

A move that doesn't look like it could possibly hurt because there is room to fit a small dog in between the aggressor's legs and the victim.

 

and then go ahead and tell me how that has to do with what you said your problem with the hold was, it not factoring into the finish

 

I have an issue with a poorly applied (boring) move taking up minutes of ring time and then being fogotten.

[Guest Ghettoman]

Uh, wrong because you say it's wrong, or wrong because he finished off some undercarder in a tag match half a year ago with it? Last time I checked Benoit's finisher was called the crippler crossface, and if it wasn't, his offense wouldn't always be geared towards the head and shoulder, and you would be hear bitching that Benoit never builds to his finisher.

 

Laying down and doing nothing!? This shows that you wrote the spot off before it got going, otherwise you would of been sure to comment on the progression Orton worked with all the add ins, or how it factored into the story of the match.

 

Room for a small dog? Like an underdeveloped fetus? The room there was totally justifiable considering anytime you have a leg scissors on right there's going to be parallel slack, because your only able to get two sides with your legs, working either side to side or front to back. Unless I missed two of Ortons four legs on the hold, to suggest logical slack on the move ruined it is semi-retarded.

 

I have an issue with a poorly applied (boring) move taking up minutes of ring time and then being fogotten.

 

So then whats your problem?

[Steviekick 0]

and then go ahead and tell me how that has to do with what you said your problem with the hold was, it not factoring into the finish

 

I have an issue with a poorly applied (boring) move taking up minutes of ring time and then being fogotten.

I agree with the both of you. I agree with Ghettoman that it worked because it kept RVD down. RVD's whole style involves him jumping all over the place, so keeping him grounded too much.

 

I also agree with Asault, because I thought that they kept going to it for too long.

[Guest Anglesault]

Uh, wrong because you say it's wrong, or wrong because he finished off some undercarder in a tag match half a year ago with it

Or a PPV match within the last four months.

 

Whatever.

 

Laying down and doing nothing!? This shows that you wrote the spot off before it got going, otherwise you would of been sure to comment on the progression Orton worked with all the add ins, or how it factored into the story of the match

 

You're right. He made faces as well.

 

there's going to be parallel slack, because your only able to get two sides with your legs, working either side to side or front to back.

 

Then I have abnormal legs. Mine bend at the knees.

[Guest Ghettoman]

I would of been bothered if it was worked like your basic WWE hold, but it wasn't, he kept up with the theme of going to what worked, even in the hold. It was a layered story, the leg scissors fit with it, and what he did in the leg scissors fit with it. He goes simple, eyerakes, movement for leverage, then he goes for the pin cover and it gets more than he expects so he tries again, it fails so he goes back to eyeraking and moving for leverage. Then he works in the headlock, see's it's effective and uses it in the hold from then on. Eventually we get the culmination and frustration blow off as Orton realizes it's just not working and snaps, trying desperately to squeeze every last bit of effectiveness out of the hold, pretty much spazzing out with it.

 

That hold was my favorite part of the match.

[Guest Ghettoman]

You can make your legs form a perfect square!? You should be on Steve Harveys show.

 

Your other points weren't points so yeah.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

I'll give Ghettoman this - at least he's coming up with arguments that are more relevant and appropriate than "Randy has the best figure of any guy in wwe and looks senstitive and strong and his entrance makes him look sexier than you'll ever be" which this guy got when he dared to criticize Randy.

 

'This "Randy is pretty" argument — along with the gender and comments of those who wrote to me — would tend to support the rather inappropriate theory that the only people who like Randy are women and closeted self-hating homosexuals.'

 

Oh, and by the way, how come Randy working a hold repeatedly and for a long time is 'smart work', but when Rhyno did it to Benoit in that US Title tourney match from last June, it sucked, they sucked, they're deteriorated and dogging it, blah blah blah that went on in here before during and after the match? Is it because standards are lowered for Orton and Van Dam?

[AndrewTS 0]

Is it because standards are lowered for Orton and Van Dam?

 

Yeah, there are far lower standards for matches featuring them than Rhyno or (especially) Benoit.

[Guest Anglesault]

I would of been bothered if it was worked like your basic WWE hold, but it wasn't, he kept up with the theme of going to what worked, even in the hold. It was a layered story, the leg scissors fit with it, and what he did in the leg scissors fit with it. He goes simple, eyerakes, movement for leverage, then he goes for the pin cover and it gets more than he expects so he tries again, it fails so he goes back to eyeraking and moving for leverage. Then he works in the headlock, see's it's effective and uses it in the hold from then on. Eventually we get the culmination and frustration blow off as Orton realizes it's just not working and snaps, trying desperately to squeeze every last bit of effectiveness out of the hold, pretty much spazzing out with it.

 

That hold was my favorite part of the match.

I saw a similar thing with the Brock Cena 5 minute bearhug. (Right down to me thinking the move was way too loose)

 

Perhaps it's just not my cup of tea.

 

I NEVER thought a move that is more or less a rest hold should last more than a minute or so of a match. It's clear that the guy isn't going to submit and there's no chance of it ending a match. All it does for me is bring the match to a grinding halt.

 

I couldn't care less how many times he shifts or pokes someone in the eye, it's still a LOT of laying down.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

Is it because standards are lowered for Orton and Van Dam?

 

Yeah, there are far lower standards for matches featuring them than Rhyno or (especially) Benoit.

Then that is the exact opposite and just as bad as the oft-used criticism "people automatically add *** to a match involving [Angle/Guerrero/Benoit]".

 

Principles, people, principles.

 

I'm definitely not saying that I didn't dog Rhyno/Benoit, because I did, many times, but if I have to do that for that match I have to do the same for RVD/Orton. The structure and execution were similar.

[Guest Anglesault]

You can make your legs form a perfect square!? You should be on Steve Harveys show.

Steve Harvey isn't dead?

 

I can bend my legs in such a manner that they can wrap around person without leaving large amounts of dead space.

 

It has more to do with the positioning of the victim and the flexibility of your legs.

 

And Benoit didn't beat Albert with the Sharpshooter at No way Out?

 

Color me shocked.

[Guest Mulatto Heat]

And Benoit didn't beat Albert with the Sharpshooter at No way Out?

No Mercy.

 

So where does Angle's heel hook and the Brock lock fit into all of this placement on the worth of submissions?