Benoit vs. HHH to change

[Guest KJ Brackish]

I just have to be completely frank and say that I think that Flair > Benoit. I think that Flair has much more personality than Benoit. Flair entertains whereas Benoit....is just.......THERE..... This isn't even about arguing HBK, but rather the fact that I think Benoit is a complete bore. Sure....he has some badass wrestling skillz, but to me....I watch the show to be entertained....not to watch a rest-hold-fest.

 

DFA

[Guest Ray]

nothing Benoit has ever done can come close to touching Mind Games.

Benoit has plenty of matches better than that.

 

In fact, I can't think of a single time Benoit did better with the same opponent.

Austin/Benoit > Austin/Michaels (referring to KOTR 97, not WM14 where he was hurt)

 

I haven't seen him adapt to different opponents and wrestle different matches.

He wrestled great junior heavyweight matches in New-Japan. He wrestled great technical matches in WCW. He wrestled great brawls. He wrestled great WWF main-event style matches. How many wrestlers can go from great matches with Liger/Sasuke/Ohtani to great matches with Bret Hart to great matches with Rock/Austin? Big gap in styles there.

 

I haven't seen any of his Japanese stuff

This is a problem. Benoit's prime was by far his 93-96 run in NJPW.

 

HBK has adapted to Mankind and worked a more agressive, brawling style. I've never seen Benoit go more of a brawling style the way we saw HBK at Mindgames against Mankind.

vs. Kevin Sullivan - Great American Bash 1996, brawling all over the place.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Let me put it this way. Compare a decent Benoit match to HBK's best match and the Benoit match is better. Benoit's best work absolutely embarasses HBK's best work.

Oh and Benoit doesn't sell better? Well I've never known Benoit to get hit with a truckload of offense and then kip up and defeat his opponent with one shot. But HBK does that all the time.

And HBK brings more energy? Sure.....that's why I'm on the edge of my seat in every Benoit match and the only time I've been on the edge of my seat in an HBK match was at Survivor Series this past year. Yep....like I said.....Benoit is miles ahead of HBK in the ring and there's no way you're going to change that.

 

Like someone mentioned earlier, some stuff you said like a decent Benoit match is better than Shawn's best match is absolute horsecrap and just shows blind love for Benoit. And it really doesn't need a response.

 

As far as who brings more energy..again, it's a silly point to argue because when you look at the two it's obvious. Shawn completely outshines Benoit as far as charisma and energy. Just look at this past Raw and how energetic the crowd was for HBK and then look at the reaction for Benoit and you'll see the difference.

 

I'll admit that it's not a 100% set-in-stone fact like, say, that it is a fact that the Earth is flat. However, there is a lot of substance that states that Benoit is a much better wrestler than Shawn Michaels. When you look at a selection of HBK matches and break them down, they wouldn't compare to a selection of Benoit's. Michaels work was way too formulaic for my liking, as a face he works a very similar match every time he's out there and for the most part, doesn't adapt his formula to suit the psychology of a match.

 

I haven't watched a lot of Benoit's work lately but from what I've seen before he works a very similar match as well. I haven't seen him adapt to different opponents and wrestle different matches. I haven't seen any of his Japanese stuff but from what I have seen, for the past 6 years or so, he wrestles the same technical match each time out.

 

HBK has adapted to Mankind and worked a more agressive, brawling style. I've never seen Benoit go more of a brawling style the way we saw HBK at Mindgames against Mankind. Look at HIAC - he bumped around like a madman. It actually made you believe that the Undertaker was a raw monster the way he was manhandling Shawn. When I see Benoit working with a similar type of opponenet like, Big Show for example, you just don't see that. HBK has done the technical match as well against Bret Hart. He's done the high-flying style.

 

I haven't seen anyone in this thread call Benoit perfect, and I know I don't consider him to be perfect (although no wrestler is, in my view, without their flaws; no matter how minor they may be;)). What makes Benoit a better wrestler is that he worked/works much better matches, is more consistent, much longer peak, more versatile (he's mastered the majority of wrestling styles on planet outside of King Road's style, shoot and probably a couple of others), he's a better carrier... I could go on, but I'll just summarise by saying that Benoit is better than Shawn in every category except maybe bumping (both were great at it), charisma (even though Michaels can't beat the depth of Benoit character or his intensity). That's really about it.

 

I already talked about the wrestling styles. Shawn is definitly more charasmatic as well as a better bumper proven in his matches with guys like Nash, Taker, Sid, etc. As far as being a better carrier...that's just ridiculous. In the mid 90's Shawn was pulling out great matches out of everyone. In Meltzer's words, he was even pulling good matches out of King Kong Bundy. As far as character- if you're comparing Shawn's character back in 97 there's no comparison...Benoit wasn't in Shawn's league. Right now, Benoit's actual ice-cold crippler character (Benoit doesn't help it any with his horrid mic work tho) is better because Shawn really has no character now. Shawn is still a lot more over though.

 

IF Shawn were to turn into the cocky heel again and start cutting promos like his first promo back with the nWo he'd once again be better.

WP -- Benoit has more charisma than Michaels to SOME people. Michaels has more charisma than Benoit to SOME people. Personally, Benoit is more charasmatic to me and he must be better at the charisma bit to most people since he officially actually draws more people to the TV screen while being a midcarder to Shawn's main event status.

 

Energy -- Benoit brings more which is undisputable. Every single thing he does in the ring has more energy to it which is a lot of his appeal. Benoit works harder than anyone.

 

 

 

I haven't watched a lot of Benoit's work lately but from what I've seen before he works a very similar match as well. I haven't seen him adapt to different opponents and wrestle different matches. I haven't seen any of his Japanese stuff but from what I have seen, for the past 6 years or so, he wrestles the same technical match each time out.

 

HBK has adapted to Mankind and worked a more agressive, brawling style. I've never seen Benoit go more of a brawling style the way we saw HBK at Mindgames against Mankind. Look at HIAC - he bumped around like a madman. It actually made you believe that the Undertaker was a raw monster the way he was manhandling Shawn. When I see Benoit working with a similar type of opponenet like, Big Show for example, you just don't see that. HBK has done the technical match as well against Bret Hart. He's done the high-flying style.

 

 

WP -- Some people are but I'm not a big fan of Mankind vs Michaels. There's a slew of other Michaels matches I'd rather watch. If you want to see someone truly brawl watch Benoit vs Sullivan from the Great American Bash. That is how you brawl. I thought Michaels bumping was too phony against the Taker. I didn't buy it at all. Benoit does a great job with the Big Show. He sets it up perfectly that he's the little guy trying to chop down the big giant.

 

It's a little harder for Benoit to adapt right now because of the restriction of the WWE style and the fact he's a face which is limiting. But watch him adapt to the A-Train. Benoit was great here. He put over the A-Train as a monstor like no one else could even come close to doing. Watch everyone else wrestle the Train just like he's another wrestler.

 

 

I already talked about the wrestling styles. Shawn is definitly more charasmatic as well as a better bumper proven in his matches with guys like Nash, Taker, Sid, etc. As far as being a better carrier...that's just ridiculous. In the mid 90's Shawn was pulling out great matches out of everyone. In Meltzer's words, he was even pulling good matches out of King Kong Bundy. As far as character- if you're comparing Shawn's character back in 97 there's no comparison...Benoit wasn't in Shawn's league. Right now, Benoit's actual ice-cold crippler character (Benoit doesn't help it any with his horrid mic work tho) is better because Shawn really has no character now. Shawn is still a lot more over though.

 

WP -- As I said before, Benoit is actually more charasmatic than Michaels or at least to most wrestling fans right now. Better bumper? Michaels tends to fly around a little more right now. If you like that, I can live with it but I say Benoit's better because he EATS his opponent's offence like very few other wrestlers do. He's like Regal and Finlay in that regard. An opponent's offence will always look better when he's facing Benoit. I think everyone can agree to that. Benoit's bumping is also more realistic.

 

Better carrier -- Benoit's a way better carrier. This is where he really shines over Michaels. There's no comparison. Benoit has more/better offence to keep things interesting when he's the heel doing the beat down the face portion of a match. He also knows how to feed his opponent very well. He's got a nice arsenal of moves with some signature ones that anyone can pick up on to counter such as the belly to back suplex standing or off the top rope that allow for anyone to transistion out of them. He'll even do his opponent's offence such as when he gets suplexed over the rope. Watch his very good match with Sid where he won the title. Benoit carries practically the whole thing(Not that there's anything wrong with being carried. Someone has to lead). Even when Benoit's a face he does well such as the Rumble where he brilliantly sets up the sharpshooter and flying headbutts attempt. By the time Benoit hits the 3rd headbutt attempt the crowd's ready to erupt.

 

Charactor I don't really care to argue about right now. Benoit appeals to me and some fans more. He's got the Arn Anderson charactor which I love so much. I can see people liking Michael's charactor better. It's best to have two different charactors than both the same. It keeps things interesting.

 

 

I know I've said this before but I think it deserves mention again. Over time and repeated viewings I think anyone that's not byist will evnetually find that Benoit's matches are more viewable over the long run. I've seen it happen with my own eyes.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Let me put it this way. Compare a decent Benoit match to HBK's best match and the Benoit match is better. Benoit's best work absolutely embarasses HBK's best work.

Uh, right. I know everybody will jump all over ironman, but nothing Benoit has ever done can come close to touching Mind Games. But that's not really fair. He's never wrestled Mankind. So let's work with the same guys. Shawn/HHH from RAW easily beats out any match Benoit had with HHH. Shawn/Jericho from WM is about 1000 times better than any Benoit/Jericho match and there was about a million of them (unless you go back to Japan). Shawn/Bret (either one) is a lot better than benoit/bret. In fact, I can't think of a single time Benoit did better with the same opponent. At least Shawn/Bret is arguable. I don't see how anybody could even attempt to try to argue this.

I'll easily go with Benoit vs HHH over Shawn vs HHH although I really did like the Raw match.

 

Benoit/Jericho is better than Shawn vs Jericho.

 

Benoit vs Bret is signifigantly better than Shawn vs Bret.

 

Nothing touches Mind Games? Personally I;m not a big fan of Mind Games as I'd rather watch other Michaels or Mankind matches but here goes:

 

Here are some matches that Benoit can "touch" with:

 

Benoit vs Sasuke

Benoit vs Ohtani Finals WCW cruiser tourney

Benoit/Ohtani vs Eddie/Tiger Both matches

Benoit vs Eddie BOSJ 96, Their two BOSJ 95 matches, WCWSN Nov 95

Benoit vs Liger series

Benoit/Liger vs Ohtani/Takiawa

Benoit vs Bret Tribute match

Benoit vs Kanemoto Both matches 95

Benoit vs Malenko Hog Wild, Niitro #1 Contership, 6/1/94 New Japan, Early 98 WCW

Benoit vs Ohtani 94

Benoit vs Samurai BOSJ 93

Benoit vs Samurai BOSJ 95

Benoit/Idol vs Assasin/Morrow Stampede

Benoit vs Regal Pillman Show, WCW "handheld" match, New Japan 1995 match

Benoit vs Angle Rumble

Benoit vs ANgle Unforgiven

Benoit/Malenko vs Raven Saturn WCW PPV

Benoit/Casas vs Finlay/E. Guerrero New Japan 1992 handheld

Benoit vs HHH No Mercy

Benoit/;Angle vs Rey/Edge No Mercy?

Benoit vs Lesnar Smackdown

Benoit vs Jericho Summerslam

Benoit vs Austin SD

Benoit/Jericho vs Austin/HHH

Benoit vs Matt Hardy Raw 2000

Benoit/Rhyno vs Los Guerreros Smackdown early 2003

Benoit/Liger/Samurai vs Ohtani/Takiaw/Kanemoto 97

Benoit/Liger vs Steiners New Japan 94

Benoit/Norton vs Steiners New Japan

 

There are others too.

[Guest Ray]

I love you, wildpegasus.

[Lightning Flik 0]

* at WP's rebuke*

 

to WP

 

WP, that was a wonderful rebuke. You just shined with it.

 

Frankly, I wish HHH vs. Benoit wouldn't be including Michaels, but it'll be HHH vs. Benoit vs. Michaels. That sucks, but hey... As long as Benoit wins and I get to see him at Backlash with the World Championship! I'm happy!

[Guest Trivia247]

HHH just doesn't want to lose anyone who is smaller than him.. He would only be pinned cleaned by people his size or bigger.

 

Doesn't matter the qualifications... bleh

[humongous2002 0]

WWE should let Benoit and HHH wrestle w/o HBFey, and then wait till Backlash to have Benoit v. HBFey for the World title in Canada.Have HBFey turn heel instead of trying to make him something he's not, RAW's #1 babyface.But this is too logical for WWE to do so don't hold your breath.

[Guest The Ohtani of Time]

Let me put it this way. Compare a decent Benoit match to HBK's best match and the Benoit match is better. Benoit's best work absolutely embarasses HBK's best work.

Uh, right. I know everybody will jump all over ironman, but nothing Benoit has ever done can come close to touching Mind Games. But that's not really fair. He's never wrestled Mankind. So let's work with the same guys. Shawn/HHH from RAW easily beats out any match Benoit had with HHH. Shawn/Jericho from WM is about 1000 times better than any Benoit/Jericho match and there was about a million of them (unless you go back to Japan). Shawn/Bret (either one) is a lot better than benoit/bret. In fact, I can't think of a single time Benoit did better with the same opponent. At least Shawn/Bret is arguable. I don't see how anybody could even attempt to try to argue this.

I'll easily go with Benoit vs HHH over Shawn vs HHH although I really did like the Raw match.

 

Benoit/Jericho is better than Shawn vs Jericho.

 

Benoit vs Bret is signifigantly better than Shawn vs Bret.

 

Nothing touches Mind Games? Personally I don't like Mind Games as I'd rather watch other Michaels or Mankind matches but here goes:

 

Here are some matches that Benoit can "touch" with:

 

Benoit vs Sasuke

Benoit vs Ohtani Finals WCW cruiser tourney

Benoit/Ohtani vs Eddie/Tiger Both matches

Benoit vs Eddie BOSJ 96, Their two BOSJ 95 matches, WCWSN Nov 95

Benoit vs Liger series

Benoit/Liger vs Ohtani/Takiawa

Benoit vs Bret Tribute match

Benoit vs Kanemoto Both matches 95

Benoit vs Malenko Hog Wild, Niitro #1 Contership, 6/1/94 New Japan, Early 98 WCW

Benoit vs Ohtani 94

Benoit vs Samurai BOSJ 93

Benoit vs Samurai BOSJ 95

Benoit/Idol vs Assasin/Morrow Stampede

Benoit vs Regal Pillman Show, WCW "handheld" match, New Japan 1995 match

Benoit vs Angle Rumble

Benoit vs ANgle Unforgiven

Benoit/Malenko vs Raven Saturn WCW PPV

Benoit/Casas vs Finlay/E. Guerrero New Japan 1992 handheld

Benoit vs HHH No Mercy

Benoit/;Angle vs Rey/Edge No Mercy?

Benoit vs Lesnar Smackdown

Benoit vs Jericho Summerslam

Benoit vs Austin SD

Benoit/Jericho vs Austin/HHH

Benoit vs Matt Hardy Raw 2000

Benoit/Rhyno vs Los Guerreros Smackdown early 2003

Benoit/Liger/Samurai vs Ohtani/Takiaw/Kanemoto 97

Benoit/Liger vs Steiners New Japan 94

Benoit/Norton vs Steiners New Japan

 

There are others too.

Fantastic post wildpegasus, well done.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

I would like to add something, but I don't think there's anything I could say as well as what Pegasus has.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Michaels is better than Benoit at actually working a crowd within a great match. For all the stuff people say about Benoit's standing O at the Rumble, HBK has gotten BETTER reactions after a match more often. He may not be as great technically, but he's the better all around worker, the more charismatic, and esily better on the mic.

 

HBK > Benoit.

[Guest Monday Night Jericho]

Another sentence and you'd almost have a paragraph.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

WWE should let Benoit and HHH wrestle w/o HBFey, and then wait till Backlash to have Benoit v. HBFey for the World title in Canada.Have HBFey turn heel instead of trying to make him something he's not, RAW's #1 babyface.But this is too logical for WWE to do so don't hold your breath.

Hell knowing the WWE if they do have a HBK/Benoit match at Backlash. They'll have HBK be the face and Benoit be the heel which, of course, wouldn't go over well at all.

[Guest BionicRedneck]

Michaels is better than Benoit at actually working a crowd within a great match.

 

Benoit works the crowd great. Just in a much more subtle way.

 

He may not be as great technically, but he's the better all around worker, the more charismatic, and esily better on the mic.

 

How is he a better "all round worker"? His matches aren't as good generally. His peak matches are nowhere near as good. His selling is worse. Psychology wise, Benoit is better. Benoit is more versitile in the ring. Benoit is more consistent.

 

So basically, Michaels is more charismatic. Well, Hogan is more charismatic than them both, so Hogan > Michaels, right?

 

Benoit > HBK.

[Guest Ray]

and...Benoit is also more professional. Have you ever seen Benoit throw a fit or tank a match because he lost his temper?

 

Michaels did...

[Guest The Ohtani of Time]

and...Benoit is also more professional. Have you ever seen Benoit throw a fit or tank a match because he lost his temper?

 

Michaels did...

That's an excellent point, benoit does have a very professional attitude, not only towards the business, but also towards other wrestlers. As talanted as he is, Benoit has never said or acted that any wrestler is beneath him, he will work just as hard in a match against a jobber (or as the jobber) as he will against an upper carder in a main event.

 

HHH and HBK can talk as much as they like about how much they love this sport, but none of them love it as much as Benoit, and it shows.

[EdwardKnoxII 0]

Reasoning Behind WMXX World Title Match Change

 

One reason why HBK got it...

 

In addition to previously reported political reasons, it appears that WWE changed the Triple H vs. Chris Benoit WrestleMania XX World Title match to a three way involving Shawn Michaels due to the house show ramifications. WWE feels that the three way will give them more flexability with house show main events following WM, since they can run Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels, Triple H vs. Chris Benoit, or Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit.

 

Credit: PWTorch.com

[Guest KJ Brackish]

HHH just doesn't want to lose anyone who is smaller than him.. He would only be pinned cleaned by people his size or bigger.

 

Doesn't matter the qualifications... bleh

Ummm....one big flaw in your post is that he jobbed to HBK..... I know you might come back with, "THEY'RE BUTT BUDDIES" or whatnot, but still the fact that HHH jobbed to HBK numerous times. HBK is definately NOT bigger than HBK so point proven!

 

DFA

[Michrome 0]

How can someone POSSIBLY argue Michaels over Benoit without seeing Benoit's Japan stuff? This is the kind of idiotic shit that kills this board.

 

Let me try the equivalent:

 

"Flair is clearly the better worker. Every Flair match with the same guy as Shawn has been worse. Flair vs. Austin from Raw was worse than Shawn-Austin, Flair-HHH is worse than Shawn-HHH, Flair/Bret wasn't as good as Shawn/Bret, and Shawn/Jericho was way better than Flair Jericho. Oh, and I've never seen anything Ric Flair did before 1991."

[Michrome 0]

Michaels is better than Benoit at actually working a crowd within a great match. For all the stuff people say about Benoit's standing O at the Rumble, HBK has gotten BETTER reactions after a match more often. He may not be as great technically, but he's the better all around worker, the more charismatic, and esily better on the mic.

 

HBK > Benoit.

 

This would get an F in third grade. The better all around worker? He is a horrible seller, overbumps all the time, has horrible punches, and throws tantrums in the ring. Benoit's top 20 matches are all better than Shawn's top 5. Let me guess: You haven't seen the Japan run.

[2GOLD 0]

Reasoning Behind WMXX World Title Match Change

 

One reason why HBK got it...

 

In addition to previously reported political reasons, it appears that WWE changed the Triple H vs. Chris Benoit WrestleMania XX World Title match to a three way involving Shawn Michaels due to the house show ramifications. WWE feels that the three way will give them more flexability with house show main events following WM, since they can run Triple H vs. Shawn Michaels, Triple H vs. Chris Benoit, or Shawn Michaels vs. Chris Benoit.

 

Credit: PWTorch.com

 

What???

 

It's a house show, the fans might feel it's a little more fun and important if you treat it like a different show and not just a re-hash of the PPV.

 

The World champion can face anyone at a house show, it's not like the title will change hands on the show and it's not like they will ruin any PPV or TV matches with a different match since cameras aren't rolling.

 

I'm calling bs on the Torch for this tidbit.

[Guest KJ Brackish]

I'm calling bs on the Torch for this tidbit.

Well I would hold your tongue as the house shows this past week have featured HBK v HHH and HHH v Benoit.....mainly with HBK over HHH and HHH over Benoit. Thus I think this is the direction they are trying to go. Give house show people PPV Calibur matches. Lord knows the house shows aren't selling. Might as well finish their downward spiral with overworking their wrestlers.

 

DFA