A good reason to own guns in the home

[snuffbox 0]

and that brings the number of good reasons up to '1'

You call yourself a liberatarian. All libertarian's I know are strong supporters of the 2nd amendment.

this is a good point...

 

yes, i am a libertarian...and yes, i do support the 2nd amendment. my problem, as posted, is with the notion that 'every home should have a gun', that kids at the age of 8 are at the gun range...that bothers me to no end. i believe strongly in gun control and gun safety. i believe that hunting of animals is a very good thing, although i do not participate. im agains this gung-ho pro-gun philosophy...i am not anti-gun.

 

as said before...ive known both murder and suicide vicims...all handguns...my father was shot while hunting. i am not anti-gun or anti hunting...i believe in strong gun control, in not breeding a nation of gung-ho gun-toting whackos. i feel very strongly that kids should be raised in peace, not in violence.

 

I do not blame the gun itself for anything thats happened...I just feel there should coninue to be, and it should be even more, gun control/laws/safety. No home needs 12 guns, or 10, or 5. Thats unnecarry and scary...its not 1776 anymore. Kids shouldnt be raised like that, not anywhere...there minds shouldnt be guns and shooting and that. Unless your gun is handy/loaded it cant be used for self-defense. If it is...children tend to end up dead.

 

My arguement doesnt lie with the guns themselves...Ive never once advocated banning guns..Im against the gun ZEALOTS.

 

but thank you vern gagne, anglesault, and 2gold for your reasoned arguements and points. You are much more viable to the case than nuts like the george bush employee.

[snuffbox 0]

and that brings the number of good reasons up to '1'

You call yourself a liberatarian. All libertarian's I know are strong supporters of the 2nd amendment.

 

He must be the Bill Maher type.

Which is not an insult.

ill take that as a compliment...i started watching him after people around said i sounded similar to him on several issues, including my most respected high school teacher.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

 

I'm away for a few days and this thread pops up. I know I'm too late with this but I don't care:

 

Another good reason to have beds in the house...

 

Couple charged with accidentally smothering son

 

09:41 AM MST on Sunday, February 8, 2004

 

By Joseph Barrios / © 2004 ARIZONA DAILY STAR

 

A Tucson couple face trial on manslaughter charges after their infant son accidentally smothered in their bed.

 

The tragedy has sparked debate about whether parents should sleep with their babies.

 

Some safety experts frown on the practice, known as "co-sleeping," and warn against it especially when parents have been drinking, drugging or taking medications.

 

But others say sleeping with babies in the right circumstances promotes bonding and allows parents a better night's rest.

 

Shawn D. Ramon Jr. was 7 months old when he died Feb. 23.

 

Shawn Dallas Ramon, 38, and Stephanie Molina, 31, face trial in May on manslaughter and child abuse charges.

 

A medical examiner determined their child's death was "likely due to suffocation due to overlying between his parents while in bed. The manner of death is accident." Overlying means sleeping over or on a baby.

 

Both parents told police they were drinking the night before.

 

From 2000 to 2002, 10 infants under 1 died where "overlying or suffocation with co-sleeping was determined to contribute to the death," according to Arizona's Child Fatality Review Program. Three were in Pima County.

 

The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission warns against the practice of putting a baby to sleep in an adult bed.

 

In a campaign launched in May 2002, the commission said at least 180 children under 2 died after being placed in adult beds.

 

But infant deaths, whether from smothering in a parent's bed or from sudden infant death syndrome, are extremely rare, said Dr. Tom Ball, a University Medical Center pediatrician.

 

"It's devastating and it's terrible when it happens, but it's rare. Infant deaths are very rare whether they're in the crib or in the bed" Bal said.

 

"There's a lot of good parents who do co-sleeping and have what's called a family bed."

 

He said he doesn't offer strong opinions "one way or the other" but that parents who share their bed should take precautions.

 

First, parents should make sure the bed is safe.

 

Children can suffocate in too much bedding or if caught between the bed and the wall.

 

Ball also advised against parents' taking medication, drinking or using drugs.

 

"They would be at risk for rolling over and not really noticing what's going on with their baby," Ball said.

 

In this case, relatives at the couple's home the night before Shawn's death later told police he appeared healthy.

 

Molina told police she started drinking about 6 p.m. that night, according to motions filed by Deputy County Attorney Nicole Savel. Molina told police that her teenage daughter fed Shawn and put him to sleep, although she was unsure when or where.

 

Molina said she went to bed about 2 a.m.

 

The next morning, Ramon woke her up and told her to call 911. He took Shawn into another room and tried to revive him.

 

Molina told police she was unsure how much she had to drink before going to bed but felt intoxicated. Ramon told police he estimates he drank a 12-pack of beer that night, according to court records. Harold Higgins, Ramon's attorney, said the couple is grief-stricken.

 

Higgins added that the parents, who are American Indian, have memorialized their son. "To say how they've done that would invade their privacy in a way they would not like," he said.

 

Dr. Albert Adler, who works for Tohono O'odham Community Health Services and knows the couple, told a defense investigator that Ramon and Molina are kind, loving parents.

 

Adler said bed sharing is very common in her patient population because it promotes breast-feeding, and because there is often a lack of sleeping space and heat in the winter.

 

Determining how many parents sleep with their child on a regular basis is difficult, said Chandra Ruiz, a Tucson mother, who organized a support group called "Basic Families." Members include parents who breast-feed and share beds and offer mutual advice. Ruiz said she tried to put her newborn daughter Cyana, now 3 years old, to sleep in a crib for about two months. "I was clearly losing my mind," Ruiz said, because of lack of sleep.

 

She said bringing the newborn into the bed with her and her husband, Luis, allowed everyone to sleep, encouraged breast-feeding and led her to be a more responsive mother.

 

Although the practice is common in other cultures, Ruiz said there's a stigma attached here.

 

"Co-sleeping is one of those things that a lot of parents don't admit to because they're afraid of what their friends or family are going to say to them," she said.

[MrRant 0]

Idiots. If you do that then there should only be one person sleeping with the baby.

[Vyce 0]

to all the heston fanboys out there....when someone you know is murdered with a handgun, or someone you know kills himself with a hangun, or when someone you know is accidentally killed by a handgun...your gung-ho gi joe attitudes might change.

I've known someone killed by a handgun.

 

I've known someone who's killed themselves with a handgun.

 

Guess what?

 

I'm still pro-2nd amendment, and a member of the NRA.

 

Studies show that private gun ownage DECREASES the crime rate. They've shown that consistently for years now. I suggest reading material from a man named Gary Kleck, who has published some interesting material on the subject (and just to hedge off any criticism of the man before you know who he is - he's a card-carrying member of the ACLU, so he's no conservative lemming). I don't have the numbers in front of me, but the number of crimes prevented by guns is statistically higher than the number of fatalities (of all sorts - criminal, suicidal, or accidental) caused by them.

 

I'm sorry to burst your little "GUNS EVIL!!!" bubble.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Idiots. If you do that then there should only be one person sleeping with the baby.

 

What if you have twins?...

[snuffbox 0]

read my posts at the top of the page vyce...this isnt brain surgery guy...read it...im pro 2nd amendment, anti-gun zealots...its not hard to get i dont think.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I've known someone killed by a handgun.

 

I've known someone who's killed themselves with a handgun.

 

Guess what?

 

I'm still pro-2nd amendment, and a member of the NRA.

Well I knew someone who drowned.

 

Guess what?

 

I don't drink water anymore...

[snuffbox 0]

its funny how the pro-gun sect will use the 'beds kill people, water kills people, etc kills people etc' (im not singling you out kkk, dont know your op, but they all use it)...yet they often are the same people in favor of the war on marijuana...a plant that has yet to kill a single person. gotta love the consistency on the right.

[MrRant 0]

I'm sure marijuana has killed someone.

[Downhome 0]

its funny how the pro-gun sect will use the 'beds kill people, water kills people, etc kills people etc' (im not singling you out kkk, dont know your op, but they all use it)...yet they often are the same people in favor of the war on marijuana...a plant that has yet to kill a single person. gotta love the consistency on the right.

Two things.

 

1) Know what you are talking about before you post. (To make sure you understand I'm just joking around, here is a smile.)

 

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20031120_705.html

 

2) Yeah, and I think it's even funnier when people bring up the water deaths in tubs and buckets, that you totally ignore that fact, and decide to say something totally not on the topic by posting something like what I've quoted you here saying.

[2GOLD 0]

I'm sure marijuana has killed someone.

 

Lots of Frisbee related deaths involved with weed.

[MrRant 0]

I'm sure marijuana has killed someone.

 

Lots of Frisbee related deaths involved with weed.

And carpentry deaths related from trying to turn everything into a bong.

[2GOLD 0]

I'm sure marijuana has killed someone.

 

Lots of Frisbee related deaths involved with weed.

And carpentry deaths related from trying to turn everything into a bong.

 

Not to mention all the people who choke to death on Cheetos while laughing during Spongebob Squarepants.

[snuffbox 0]

its funny how the pro-gun sect will use the 'beds kill people, water kills people, etc kills people etc' (im not singling you out kkk, dont know your op, but they all use it)...yet they often are the same people in favor of the war on marijuana...a plant that has yet to kill a single person. gotta love the consistency on the right.

Two things.

 

1) Know what you are talking about before you post. (To make sure you understand I'm just joking around, here is a smile.)

 

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20031120_705.html

 

2) Yeah, and I think it's even funnier when people bring up the water deaths in tubs and buckets, that you totally ignore that fact, and decide to say something totally not on the topic by posting something like what I've quoted you here saying.

I assumed you didnt take the water/bed/whatever seriously either downhome...I dont think anyone on the thread used it in seriousness actually. It just comes up from time to time from various people I engage in life...always from the right. I didnt mean anything against the posters being sarcastic here.

 

I just wanted to point out a hypocricy of the right. Nothing personal against you or anyone that said anything similar here.

 

And...I meant that nobody has died from smoking marijuana!

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

For once I agree with the "radicals". I own a gun. I keep it in my house and in one of my previous homes a man broke in and I scared him off.

 

I also go hunting all the time. My younger family members stay over here all the time and I take the precaution of locking the bullets in a closet and the handgun in a drawer next to my bed, i've never had a problem.

[Firestarter 0]

I just wanted to point out a hypocricy of the right... nobody has died from smoking marijuana

I agree, and almost everyone I know in law enforcement also agrees. You think we want to spend our time hunting down teenage potheads, clogging up the courts with morons who really aren't doing any harm to anyone but themselves, and not even much of that? I don't. I couldn't care less about illegal drugs. I don't like the sellers, but I honestly couldn't give a flying fuck about the buyers. A lot of people on "the right" feel the same way. But the so-called "war on drugs" has support across the political spectrum, so it's probably not going to change real soon. The only difference is that the liberals prefer to lock up the potheads in mandatory "treatment centers" rather than jails. I think both approaches are stupid.

 

As for your tedious bullshit about "gun zealots," I've heard it before and quite frankly I'm not impressed. The Second Amendment says nothing about a limit to the number of guns you can own based on what some random self-proclaimed internet "libertarian" considers "unnecarry." [sic] It says that the people of the United States have an absolute right to bear arms. I can have a fucking armoury in my basement if I want, and if the Constitution says it's all right, I'm not sure exactly who the hell gave you the authority to contradict it.

 

Oh, and one other thing: I'm not a "George Bush employee." Your would-be witticism isn't amusing or accurate, although it isn't insulting (as I'm sure you intended it to be) either. I'm a Republican, a serving officer in Air Force intelligence, a lifetime NRA member, and yes, a strong supporter of the President, who is, yes, my Commander-in-Chief, but my employers are the citizens of the United States. They're the ones who pay my salary, and they're the ones whom, at the pleasure of the President, I serve.

 

See if you can get that through your skull. If you have trouble, let me know, and I'll try to find a jackhammer.

[Vyce 0]

its funny how the pro-gun sect will use the 'beds kill people, water kills people, etc kills people etc' (im not singling you out kkk, dont know your op, but they all use it)...yet they often are the same people in favor of the war on marijuana...a plant that has yet to kill a single person. gotta love the consistency on the right.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

 

First off, as Marney stated, the "War on Drugs" has bipartisan support, because NO ONE wants to appear soft on drugs.

 

Second, the number of individuals actually in jail for pot is ridiculously small, especially compared to those incarcerated for harder drugs like coke or heroin. And the ones who are in jail for pot are the ones who were either caught trafficking or had VERY large amounts in their possession - not a dime bag, but POUNDS of the stuff. Most marijuana arrests get plead out (or thrown out) and the perps wind up with either a stay in rehab or with probation.

 

I don't know what point you're trying to proof. Most people don't give two shits about pot. I know police officers who look the other way most of the time, so long as the individual isn't doing other crazy shit (i.e. disturbing the peace, etc.) at the time.

[Guest MikeSC]

its funny how the pro-gun sect will use the 'beds kill people, water kills people, etc kills people etc' (im not singling you out kkk, dont know your op, but they all use it)...yet they often are the same people in favor of the war on marijuana...a plant that has yet to kill a single person. gotta love the consistency on the right.

What the fuck are you even talking about?

 

First off, as Marney stated, the "War on Drugs" has bipartisan support, because NO ONE wants to appear soft on drugs.

 

Second, the number of individuals actually in jail for pot is ridiculously small, especially compared to those incarcerated for harder drugs like coke or heroin. And the ones who are in jail for pot are the ones who were either caught trafficking or had VERY large amounts in their possession - not a dime bag, but POUNDS of the stuff. Most marijuana arrests get plead out (or thrown out) and the perps wind up with either a stay in rehab or with probation.

 

I don't know what point you're trying to proof. Most people don't give two shits about pot. I know police officers who look the other way most of the time, so long as the individual isn't doing other crazy shit (i.e. disturbing the peace, etc.) at the time.

Heck, a lot of Republicans favor repealing the war on drugs. I know the National Review has been big on legalizing marijuana for years now.

 

I, personally, don't care. I am annoyed that people claim it's not addictive (I knew somebody QUITE addicted to it), but I prefer people smoking pot to chugging tons of beer.

 

Not too many bar fights started from pot smoking.

-=Mike

[snuffbox 0]

all apologies Marney...someone here said you worked for Bush. My mistake, bad info, sorry.

 

I wish I lived where you guys do though...because wherever Ive been, it seems like police seem very preoccupied with marijuana. Not all, Ive met several good officers whom I respect, but many arent like that.

 

If you all agree that its unnecessary...cool...we agree. I didnt know you felt like that, and I basically lumped you in with the polititians who too often favor the pot laws for their own benefit(tobacco and pharmacy money). My fault and my apologies...Im not trying to be personal or hateful.

Edited February 9, 2004 by snuffbox

[MrRant 0]

all apologies Barney...someone here said you worked for Bush. My mistake, bad info, sorry.

Barney?

[Firestarter 0]

Barney?

Shaddap.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Its funny how the pro-gun sect will use the 'beds kill people, water kills people, etc kills people etc'

 

Boo -- I was trying to make a joke. Note the word "trying."

 

(im not singling you out kkk, dont know your op, but they all use it)

 

It's all good. Oh -- I don't own a gun and I don't fault someone for wanting to own a gun. However, in the words of a comic whose name I can't remember, "If you can't wait six days to own a gun, you're the type of person that needs to wait six days before owning a gun."

 

...yet they often are the same people in favor of the war on marijuana...a plant that has yet to kill a single person. gotta love the consistency on the right.

 

It numbs your senses and makes you too trusting...

 

McGovern is sentenced to life in prison

 

By Chris Loos/ Tribune-Herald

 

John McGovern was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole Thursday for his role in the May 2002 shooting deaths of 20 - year - old roommates Wesley Alan Matheson and Cassidy Toole.

 

McGovern, 20, was convicted in December of first - degree murder, a weapons offense and unauthorized control of a motor vehicle.

 

McGovern's accomplice, Kyle Zengy Thurston Hill, testified against McGovern. In exchange, prosecutors let him plead guilty lesser charges. Hill was sentenced Wednesday to life in prison with the possibility of parole.

 

During the trial, Hill testified that the two men killed their friends so they could steal their drugs.

 

McGovern testified that he told Hill he would shoot Toole if Hill shot Matheson, but he didn't think he'd really do it.

 

At a sentencing hearing Thursday, family and friends of the two victims told the judge how the killings have affected them. Deputy Prosecutor Sandra Freitas also played a videotaped statement by Matheson's mother, Kayt Fossler.

 

On the tape, Fossler said her son didn't deserve to die. She said Matheson was the second of three sons and was loved, respected and "truly happy."

 

But, she added, he wasn't perfect. He smoked marijuana and was "too trusting" of people. "I believe these two flaws contributed to his death," she said.

 

Fossler said Matheson's death devastated her family. One son lost his job and wife, and has become distant. "He trusts no one, including himself," she said.

 

Her other son, Casey, was Matheson's best friend. "Casey lives with the knowledge that he is the one who introduced his brother to the two young men who killed him," she said. "He's been left with a void in his heart that can never be filled."

 

Fossler said her son's death has caused her to question her faith and her god.

 

"I have dreams that this has been only a nightmare and I see my son ... only to wake up to a permanent nightmare," she said.

 

Deputy Prosecutor Sandra Freitas told Circuit Judge Terence Yoshioka that McGovern deserves a longer sentence than Hill because he was the mastermind and showed no remorse, and Hill, on the other hand, accepted responsibility and cooperated with authorities.

 

"The state is pleading with this court that the defendant be given an extended term," Freitas said.

 

McGovern's attorney, Keith Shigetomi, denied that his client felt no remorse. "Remorse is what led John to admit to the police what happened," he said.

 

Shigetomi said that McGover, as a child, was "bounced from home to home." He said McGovern's difficulty in showing emotion is a "classic trait" of a neglected child. "Just because he doesn't show emotion doesn't mean he doesn't feel emotion," Shigetomi said.

 

McGovern's aunt nodded her head from the gallery. McGovern began to cry.

 

Shigetomi said the only difference between Hill's case and McGovern's case is that McGovern went to trial. Shigetomi said it would be unfair to punish McGovern for that.

 

But Freitas told the judge Hill was entitled to a lesser sentence for his help because he will be labeled a "rat" in prison.

 

McGovern kept changing his story, she added, "so the punishment for him should be more."

 

When it was McGovern's turn to speak, his eyes filled with tears. He said he never denied his involvement after his arrest. "May 6 - the day that I did probably the worst thing I ever did - I killed someone," McGovern said. "And that person was my friend."

 

He said he didn't walk away after Hill killed Matheson because Hill was standing between himself and the door with a gun. "I just pointed and shot and hoped it did the job 'cause I didn't want to do it again," McGovern said.

 

He said he and the victims sometimes had fights but eventually they made up. "I did an irreplaceable thing and I'll never have a chance to repair my friendship," he said.

 

McGovern said he knew nothing he said would make the victims' friends and family feel better. "And that's what eats at me the most."

 

He acknowledged that whether the judge gave him an extended sentence, the odds are "very low" that he will ever get out of prison. He said whatever he said in court would not influence a future gubernatorial pardon.

 

"I just want to be a man, to accept my responsibility," he said. "I want to apologize to family and friends but I doubt it'll be accepted."

 

McGovern said that, like the victims' loved ones, he hardly sleeps at night. "I will have to live with what I did two years ago for the rest of my life," he said.

 

In the end, Yoshioka rejected the state's request to extend the terms of the sentence but he did order that the three felony terms be served back to back, for a total of life plus 25 years.

 

The case began as a missing persons investigation when Toole's black 2001 Honda Civic was found May 8, 2002, crashed in a ditch in Ka'u. Hill and McGovern testified that they stole the car and crashed it two days after killing their friends.

[Slayer 0]

Cancer Barney, the big purple gun-loving lesbian dinosaur

[Guest MikeSC]

Barney?

Shaddap.

Man, if I knew your wife's e-mail address, I'd have her annoying the crap out of you shortly.

-=Mike

[MrRant 0]

If Marney is even her real name.

 

[snuffbox 0]

damn...that was a typo. Honestly...I had it in lower case, changed it to uppercase, hit B somehow and apparently never checked it twice. Sorry, I seriously didnt mean that. The whole post was meant to be civil, to say Im just trying to discuss opinions and beliefs, not be personal/vindictive, and it all gets lost on a typo. All apologies. Christ.

[Guest MikeSC]

damn...that was a typo. Honestly...I had it in lower case, changed it to uppercase, hit B somehow and apparently never checked it twice. Sorry, I seriously didnt mean that. The whole post was meant to be civil, to say Im just trying to discuss opinions and beliefs, not be personal/vindictive, and it all gets lost on a typo. All apologies. Christ.

I doubt she cared that much.

-=Mike

...But I'd avoid singing "I love you, You love me"

[Firestarter 0]

Apology accepted. It's just that this has come up before.

[MrRant 0]

 

Could it..? Nah.