The WWE Folder

[NYU 0]

Downhome, I agree with you. If changes are to be made, it's very important not to alienate those that already post in the WWE folder. Unfortunately, at this point, things have been botched pretty badly so it hasn't quite worked out well yet. But I'm sure it will eventually clear up.

 

Does all of that make better sense now?

 

Boy, do I detect some sass in that remark? I sure as hell HOPE NOT!!

 

(Pun wasn't originally intended, but works out well )

[Damaramu 0]

I think mainly the biggest problem with the WWE folder is the "us vs. them" mentality. The "smarks vs. anti-smarks." Hell I'm guilty of this to. I mean when there is a thread that disagrees with someone's opinion they feel that they have to make a case of it. Which is where we get the "God you smarks piss me off" and the "Oh kiss my ass anti-smarks" stuff at.

Because someone starts a thread about Randy Orton.

"I feel Randy Orton has no heat."

"I'll disagree with you."

"Rany Orton couldn't' draw heat even if he were wearing black on the sun."

"God you smarks! All you do is bitch! Deal with it! Orton is better than your precious Benoit! Go jack him off!"

"Hey fuck you! Orton sucks! You don't know anything about wrestling! Why are you even here!? Kiss my ass!"

 

See? That shit happens WAY to much. I mean it doesn't happen as blatantly as that but you get the general idea. And yes like I said I'm guilty of this to.

[Downhome 0]

Does all of that make better sense now?

 

Boy, do I detect some sass in that remark? I sure as hell HOPE NOT!!

 

(Pun wasn't originally intended, but works out well )

Heh, trust me, no "sass" was intended. I was actually seriously asking, becuase Sass and I had a misunderstanding the other day, and I'm trying to avoid that again.

 

But yes, the key is to not alienate any of the loyal posters that we have here.

[Sass 0]

But I don't understand....were the off-topic joking threads the problem of the WWE folder?

That was one of the main complaints that Loss and I have read over the years here at TSM.

 

I thought it had to do with multiple threads on the same news item, garbage threads that had no point, that kind of stuff.

 

Those as well.

 

These joking threads come once in a while, and I never thought it came to the point where they became a problem.

 

They haven't become a problem during the last month or so but I have seen many threads in the folder simply degenerate into gimmick posts where people try to be funny and beat a joke dead into the ground and making it unfunny (while going on for pages).

 

If a folder like "WWE Hijinx" is created, it will become a Garbage Folder.

 

Some people already believe the WWE folder is a garbage folder so not everyone is going to agree on this.

 

People will post unfunny, unnecessary threads there - and the threads started in the WWE folder that WERE getting good will have their flow thrown off by moving it to an entirely different folder.

 

The WWE HiJinx folder hasn't even gotten pass the starting line so as of right now we do not have a set criteria for what would constitute a thread's immediate so right now this is all speculation.

 

Not to mention you're taking away most of the humor of the WWE folder.

 

Again, this is speculation since neither I nor Loss have any set criteria for what would lead a thread to be moved into the sub-folder.

 

People will be afraid to make some type of "almost off-topic" joke in a thread just because that could then wind up causing it to move into another folder that gets less traffic.

 

Right now Loss and I are taking everything by a day-to-day basis so I imagine that would be how we'd also handle the WWE HiJinx folder if one was ever created.

 

Then, eventually, the WWE Hijinx folder would become a mess. It's bound to.

 

I suppose you could say the same about the TSM Classics folder but I don't think the folder is a mess by any means since it has served it's purpose well.

 

So, while the WWE folder would be cleaned up to a degree (which is debatable), we would have a new mess in another folder.

 

This is also debatable as the TSM Classics folder seems to indicate that a WWE HiJinx folder would not fall apart immediately.

 

If we were to create a WWE HiJinx folder, like in other classic threads, I'm willing to bet that there would be posters who would say "move this to HiJinx" just like how people have asked for other threads to be moved into the Classics folder.

 

I think those trying to solve this WWE Folder problem (of which I'm not quite sure what the problem is) are tackling it the wrong way.

 

Here's where I think we differ.

 

You don't see a problem with the WWE folder yet you're telling the mods that they might be tackling the problems the wrong way when you yourself arent sure what the problems are.

 

Humorous off-topic threads aren't the problem.

 

It's off-topic threads in general that are one of the problems and those do encompass humorous posts as well.

 

I don't think they were ever the problem.

 

Humorous posts specifically were not the problem. Going off topic and hijacking a hot discussion and turning it into pages of material that is not related to the topic is what we're looking to curtail.

 

Topics that leave no room for discussion, topics consisting of people arguing back and forth with no real points, meaningless boring questions, multiple news threads....these have been the problems.

 

I fail to see how making jokes in threads that go off-topic does not follow your first point made about topics that leave no room for discussion. I would imagine that most posters in that folder/thread would rather continue discussing whatever it was they were talking about before their discussion was taken over and left with no room to talk about the original topic because a group of posters turned it into a joke fest.

 

Everything else you mentioned has been a problem as well.

 

But I don't see them getting as much attention as "We have to do something about the odd humor!"

 

I'd imagine that's because they are the current topic of discussion in this thread that is ongoing. If you want to discuss the other problems you brought up above then I'm game as well.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Sass

[Sass 0]

If you do indeed make that kind of folder then RRR deffinately needs to be the folder mod.

RRR has told me he has no current intention of wanting to be a mod and likes just being a poster.

[Sass 0]

Once again, you take something I have said, only a single part of what I've said, and have taken it the wrong way. By now, you of all people should realize that I AM sincerely just trying to help. Look at the entire post that had to do what I was talking about there...

That entire paragraph comes off as very condescending and your choice of words like "hell bent" holds a very strong conotation with people, myself included which is why I singled that one comment out. I had no problem with the rest of your post since you are trying to help out and I appreciate that.

[Damaramu 0]

Damn....no sold again.

[Sass 0]

Heh, trust me, no "sass" was intended. I was actually seriously asking, becuase Sass and I had a misunderstanding the other day, and I'm trying to avoid that again.

 

But yes, the key is to not alienate any of the loyal posters that we have here.

Everything is cool on my end DH. I hold nothing against you since I was the one who acted out of line in our AIM convo.

 

Don't worry, you're not going to have to worry about being banned at TSM tomorrow...

 

Or will you?

 

Edited February 8, 2004 by Sass

[Downhome 0]

Once again, you take something I have said, only a single part of what I've said, and have taken it the wrong way. By now, you of all people should realize that I AM sincerely just trying to help. Look at the entire post that had to do what I was talking about there...

That entire paragraph comes off as very condescending and your choice of words like "hell bent" holds a very strong conotation with people, myself included which is why I singled that one comment out. I had no problem with the rest of your post since you are trying to help out and I appreciate that.

Well take it however you want, but just understand that whatever I post here I never mean anything in a bad way. When I DO mean something in a bad way, you'll know the difference, heh.

[Sass 0]

Once again, you take something I have said, only a single part of what I've said, and have taken it the wrong way. By now, you of all people should realize that I AM sincerely just trying to help. Look at the entire post that had to do what I was talking about there...

That entire paragraph comes off as very condescending and your choice of words like "hell bent" holds a very strong conotation with people, myself included which is why I singled that one comment out. I had no problem with the rest of your post since you are trying to help out and I appreciate that.

Well take it however you want, but just understand that whatever I post here I never mean anything in a bad way. When I DO mean something in a bad way, you'll know the difference, heh.

It's been a very tedious time at TSM behind the scenes here so if I sound like I'm snapping at you or anyone else, I apologize since that's not how I believe a mod should act when posters ask questions about things they have a concern about.

[Sass 0]

I think mainly the biggest problem with the WWE folder is the "us vs. them" mentality. The "smarks vs. anti-smarks." Hell I'm guilty of this to. I mean when there is a thread that disagrees with someone's opinion they feel that they have to make a case of it. Which is where we get the "God you smarks piss me off" and the "Oh kiss my ass anti-smarks" stuff at.

This is where we felt someone like CanadianChick would make a good mod.

 

She's not quite an elitist but she's not an apologist either. This was a balance that all the mods were seeking when we were looking at people who would could be balanced in making judgement calls on matters concerning the WWE folder and simply put, do a good job as mod and not cause the other ones headaches.

[Downhome 0]

She's not quite an elitist but she's not an apologist either.

What in the world does that have anything to do with someone being a good mod or not? You shouldn't take their actual opinions on WWE into account when deciding on something like that. All that matters is if they actually post in the forum enough so that you know they'll be around, they are respected by "most" people who post in the forum, and that you feel that you can trust them.

[Sass 0]

She's not quite an elitist but she's not an apologist either.

What in the world does that have anything to do with someone being a good mod or not?

That was not meant to be a slant against you DH but I can see where you might see it as one and I should have indicated to you that it wasn't something meant against you.

 

You shouldn't take their actual opinions on WWE into account when deciding on something like that.

 

Myself and the other mods along with Dames would beg to differ on this. One of the things that was discussed before we looked into who would make a good mod is the baggage they would bring with them and it was deteremined that we could not pick someone who defended the WWE at every turn or criticzed them at every turn because then that could create a massive conflict of interests.

 

All that matters is if they actually post in the forum enough so that you know they'll be around, they are respected by "most" people who post in the forum, and that you feel that you can trust them.

 

Angle fanatics, HHHaters, WWE apologists, and Goldberg defenders would seem to deafeat this theory since all of them have been around at TSM since it's inception yet they are probably just as equally despised by people as they are liked by their contemporary's who share their same views.

Edited February 9, 2004 by Sass

[Downhome 0]

I have a question. What about the folders like CE? Is anything going to change in there?

[CanadianChick 0]

DH, maybe it's because when someone doesn't have an extreme viewpoint either way, they are less likely to be unbiased.

[Art Sandusky 0]

CE is Tom's domain. He even calls it "my folder" on occasion. I don't think we need someone else in there, especially considering that's the folder where I think what side of the fence you sit on is more important than in the WWE folder. Those creampuffs in the WWE folder don't know fighting until they go into CE on a big news day.

[Downhome 0]

DH, maybe it's because when someone doesn't have an extreme viewpoint either way, they are less likely to be unbiased.

No, that doesn't make any sense at all. You should base who is a mod on their opinions of the WWE product, you should base who is a mod by what I said earlier, as well as their history as a poster.

 

If someone has never showed bias, meaning they have never flamed someone because of their opinion, then what they think of the product shouldn't matter at all when it comes to their being a mod. That's just a close minded and insane outlook on things.

[Downhome 0]

That was not meant to be a slant against you DH but I can see where you might see it as one and I should have indicated to you that it wasn't something meant against you.

I didn't take that personally, I was speaking in general.

 

Myself and the other mods along with Dames would beg to differ on this.  One of the things that was discussed before we looked into who would make a good mod is the baggage they would bring with them and it was deteremined that we could not pick someone who defended the WWE at every turn or criticzed them at every turn because then that could create a massive conflict of interests.

 

I understand all of that, but their opinion of the WWE product shouldn't come into play at ALL when deciding who is a mod. Like I posted before in response to CC, you should go by their history on the board, and everything else I said. That's my opinion anyway. To fault someone because they either hate or love WWE is just stupid to me.

 

Angle fanatics, HHHaters, WWE apologists, and Goldberg defenders would seem to deafeat this theory since all of them have been around at TSM since it's inception yet they are probably just as equally despised by people as they are liked by their contemporary's who share their same views.

 

What does that mean exactly? You simply shouldn't base who is a mod on their opinions. It should be people who post in the forum, who are respected, who you trust, and people who have a clean history.

 

NOT based on what they think of the WWE product. I'm amazed that you even allowed such things into the decision making process.

 

With all of that said, I have nothing against those who ARE mods, I'm just saying.

[MrRant 0]

CE is Tom's domain. He even calls it "my folder" on occasion. I don't think we need someone else in there, especially considering that's the folder where I think what side of the fence you sit on is more important than in the WWE folder. Those creampuffs in the WWE folder don't know fighting until they go into CE on a big news day.

I nominate me.

[Guest Anglesault]

Well, you also forgot the "(Provides evidence)" after each part of that back-and-forth exchange. I think that'd be important.

Oh, no, you can't provide evidence, because if you do, you're sure to reference another incident that doesn't specifically relate to the topic at hand.

 

We can't mention who he out pops, because those people weren't mentioned in the topic, we can't bring up matches where he got a great reaction, because that has the DOUBLE WHAMMY~! of mentioning a non-topic mentioned wrestler AND referencing a match, which could cause people to debate whether or not he was getting a reaction in that match.

 

And we can't have that, because the topic is "Is Benoit over?" not "Was Benoit over on x date while wrestling x wrestler?"

Something tells me you aren't very happy about any of the changes. I'm sensing a negative vibe.

Really, what the fuck tipped you off?

 

I didn't think there was a problem to begin with, and I certainly don't think that having the rules be so incredibly vague that Loss can just march into a thread and close it because it doesn't fit his definition of logical progression of a topic is helping anything.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Yup, you're definitely displeased.

[Guest Anglesault]

Annoyed is better.

 

And I'm going to issue one of my little preditions.

 

This will be a disaster.

 

For the first couple of weeks, the new group of WWE forum leaders will continue to close and delete threads on a whim. This will cause an uproar among the WWE folder inhabitants that the forum leaders will become way too cautious to exercise their powers that by April we'll be back to square one.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I think you're giving most of the WWE folder denizens too much credit. Do you really see them giving much of a crap either way? They'll find a different place to spout off the same crap. Only a few, such as the ones in this thread, will be intelligent enough to actually argue against it in a coherent manner.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I'd like to know who all these people are who make fun of the WWE folder and what do they exactly say?

 

And the "WWE Hijinx" folder totally takes the fun out of the joke. Stuff like Tomko & Fertig are fun cause they're spontaneous and have a short shelf-life of maybe a day (2 days tops). To put them in their own folder is so "corporate".

[Damaramu 0]

I'd like to know who all these people are who make fun of the WWE folder and what do they exactly say?

 

And the "WWE Hijinx" folder totally takes the fun out of the joke. Stuff like Tomko & Fertig are fun cause they're spontaneous and have a short shelf-life of maybe a day (2 days tops). To put them in their own folder is so "corporate".

And why exactly are we taking their opinion so seriously?

[Downhome 0]

Well it's better than the idea of outright banning anything like that from ever being allowed to take place again.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

I kinda feel like Im having some sort of wierd flashbacks.

 

Anyway, the mods for the WWE folder are a good thing, irregardless of who they are.

 

As far as the movement towards increasing the intelligent discussion in the WWE Folder goes, its probably long overdue, but I don't think that these new rules are going to do much for that.

 

Also, whats happening in regards to the 1 Daily News Topic thread? I haven't seen any mention of that, most of the discussion has been about the "Veering off topic" problem.

[Perfxion 0]

That Idea was scrapped since everyone hated it. Eventhough it will cut back on the 45 "news" and rumor threads of Bret Hart coming back(which happens every year in time for Mania)

 

Also, as for this Suspend from WWE folder idea, it should be put in other folders too, like CE with people who do nothing but bring the fluff.

[Guest Loss]

How many times do we have to say we're not banning humor before you guys understand that we're not banning humor?

 

Downhome, I'm glad you're trying to help, but you're taking away time that Sass and I could be devoting the right way by arguing and criticizing every little thing that we do. When I don't step in, I get criticism. When I do step in, I get criticism. What exactly is it that you want?

 

As for the Bret Hart thread, if you're not going to read a whole thread, that's on you, not the mods.

 

And as for the Eddy thread being closed, it was closed because I was getting PMs complaining about it going off topic and the quote/quote/quote/quote/quote/quote/quote nature it was taking was making it impossible to read. I don't plan on going in and closing threads one-by-one, but the thread was veering off topic. It wasn't even close.

 

You can make comparisons in your arguments. That's fine. That's encouraged. But when you start using convoluted logic, you get conversations exactly like Damaramu mentioned.

 

As for those wanting to know what people actually say about the folder, I'll be blunt, but the general opinion I've gathered is that you have a folder full of people who blindly bash everything WWE does because it's something that's criticized by Dave Meltzer or Scott Keith, and that you're left with a group of posters who are unable to think for themselves. There's a severe lack of knowledge of wrestling history and too many short posts with nothing of substance. They are unwilling to give new angles and new storylines a chance to develop and constantly come up with the stupidest conspiracy theories. On the other side, you have the diehard apologists who will defend everything WWE does until the death that fail to see any flaws in the product at any time, and use "you're just a bitter smark" to solve all of their arguments. There are few posters who do step in and make good points, even some who post regularly and make great points, but they are ignored or not grasped by the majority of the other people in the threads. There are also too many post whores who have nothing to say who won't shut up and that the folder stays too busy, despite there being maybe 5-10 posts of substance on a day that probably has thousands of posts. The perception is that a new thread is started anytime even an inkling of a rumor is going around and that those things aren't always worth discussing, yet they always get discussed. Discussions turn into flaming too often, and the same topics are discussed ad nauseum.

 

I hate to say all that, but that's the perception of the folder and those are the things Sass and I are trying to change. Maybe this puts our goals in perspective for you.

[Downhome 0]

How many times do we have to say we're not banning humor before you guys understand that we're not banning humor?

 

 

 

 

I hate to say all that, but that's the perception of the folder and those are the things Sass and I are trying to change. Maybe this puts our goals in perspective for you.

 

If you are putting an end to, what many call, the "fun threads", then you are banning that humor and it will tick quite a few people off. It isn't like those very few threads that pop up from time to time hurt anything at all.

 

Downhome, I'm glad you're trying to help, but you're taking away time that Sass and I could be devoting the right way by arguing and criticizing every little thing that we do. When I don't step in, I get criticism. When I do step in, I get criticism. What exactly is it that you want?

 

Oh, so now since I am sitting here trying to help, since all of you aren't even on the same page as of yet seeing how the rules aren't even decided on, I'm the one who is slowing things down by taking away your time? If you don't have time to respond to those of us who ask questions, those of us who care, then you might as well not be a mod. I haven't put down everything you have done, just these little details, that really matter a great deal. If someone doesn't point them out, then it will eventually get out of hand. All I want is for you to listen, make the rules actually solid and set them in stone, but do so in a way where you don't make the posters that are already here, feel unwelcomed any longer.

 

As for the Bret Hart thread, if you're not going to read a whole thread, that's on you, not the mods.

 

That explains nothing at all. If the thread is there, people could see it and believe it. Since it's nothing more than a flat out lie and old news from years ago, why didn't you just delete it to dispose of it, to clear up the board?

 

And as for the Eddy thread being closed, it was closed because I was getting PMs complaining about it going off topic and the quote/quote/quote/quote/quote/quote/quote nature it was taking was making it impossible to read. I don't plan on going in and closing threads one-by-one, but the thread was veering off topic. It wasn't even close.

 

I'm not going to say everything that I've said before, I'm sure you read it if you care about what I have to say. But that topic...come on now. There wasn't anything in it, at all, that would even SUGGEST that it should have been closed. Sure, it wasn't talking about Eddy anymore, but the conversation (as I say), evolved into another situation, which began by comparing the two. In no way was it some sort of huge mess of "Orton hate" or "smark vs. anti-smark" bullshit. As for the quote thing, well, I wasn't aware that we even had a rule on that. Like I said, if you closed THAT thread, then you might as well just go down through the board and close every other topic, seeing how almost all of the conversations evolve from the original topic. Nothing at all wrong with that.

 

You can make comparisons in your arguments. That's fine. That's encouraged. But when you start using convoluted logic, you get conversations exactly like Damaramu mentioned.

 

But the issue is that we didn't even HAVE any of that stuff going on like Dam said. You ended the thread in the middle of a simple conversation, one where people were actually making good points, and not fighting.

 

As for those wanting to know what people actually say about the folder, I'll be blunt, but the general opinion I've gathered is that you have a folder full of people who blindly bash everything WWE does because it's something that's criticized by Dave Meltzer or Scott Keith, and that you're left with a group of posters who are unable to think for themselves.

 

So what rules have you in place combat such as that? The thread you closed was a bunch of people actually having a smart discussion about something, not blind sheep.

 

There's a severe lack of knowledge of wrestling history and too many short posts with nothing of substance.

 

So what, do you want people do past a "wrestling history" test before they are allowed to post in the folder? I agree with the short posts thing, but all that needs to be done about something like that is to just tell people to not make one word replies, that isn't very hard to stop at all. It's basicly just the spam rule.

 

They are unwilling to give new angles and new storylines a chance to develop and constantly come up with the stupidest conspiracy theories.

 

What exactly is wrong with that? I don't think anyone cares about that sort of thing as long as they present what they believe with something other than "OMG WWE SUCKS IT'S GOING TO DIE, FUCK WWE~!". There is nothing at all wrong with people believing what they want though, you just need to stop the flaming.

 

On the other side, you have the diehard apologists who will defend everything WWE does until the death that fail to see any flaws in the product at any time, and use "you're just a bitter smark" to solve all of their arguments.

 

See my above reply. This is getting out of hand, it's like you guys want to limit what people believe and think when you say stuff like this. What people believe isn't the problem, you just need to stop the flaming and bull like that. I look on the bright side of things, but I back up what I believe. On the other end of things, RRR doesn't think too highly of certain things, but he also always backs up what he says. You just need to do away with the guys who do NOT do that, the guys who ONLY say what you just said, ""you're just a bitter smark", and crap like that.

 

There are few posters who do step in and make good points, even some who post regularly and make great points, but they are ignored or not grasped by the majority of the other people in the threads.

 

I see great points made by people all of time, you are making it sound like all of us who post on that board are total morons for the most part. Points will be made at times, and will not be noticed, that's how things are.

 

There are also too many post whores who have nothing to say who won't shut up and that the folder stays too busy, despite there being maybe 5-10 posts of substance on a day that probably has thousands of posts.

 

Now this is insanely laughable. So you are saying that for every thousands of posts, only 5-10 of them have any substance at all? Do you even read some of the conversations that go on in there? Who exactly are the "post whores"? It's just all about doing away with the flaming, that's the key. Just by doing that one thing would be a great help.

 

The perception is that a new thread is started anytime even an inkling of a rumor is going around and that those things aren't always worth discussing, yet they always get discussed.

 

On my God, please...no. Don't tell me that a thread is started, and it's *gasp*, discussed! What is the WWE folder coming to?

 

Who are you to determine what is "worth discussing" and what isn't? Sure, threads like "Orton SUXORSomg~!!!!" shouldn't be there, and should be deleted as soon as a mod sees it, but everything else...what's wrong with it? I just looked up and down the the WWE board and I didn't see a single topic that shouldn't be there, other than the Bret Hart topic. Would you mind pointing out topics that aren't worth discussing?

 

Isn't that the point of this entire place?

 

Discussions turn into flaming too often, and the same topics are discussed ad nauseum.

 

So because some idiots start flaming people, we should just stop discussions because they lead to flaming? I don't think so. Just make it known, loud and clear, that you will NOT tolerate flaming in ANY folder other than HD, and just put your foot down. I don't see why you should limit what in the world we decide to talk about though, just because certain things lead to flaming.

 

A topic like "Benoit isn't over enough to be champion" is a valid topic of discussion, and just because some morons will flame someone else over it isn't an exucse to keep that topic off of the table. You need to focus on the idiots who do these things instead in my opinion.

 

I hate to say all that, but that's the perception of the folder and those are the things Sass and I are trying to change. Maybe this puts our goals in perspective for you.

 

Well thank you for taking the time to respond to everything, I'm sure all of us appriciate it. I don't agree with most of what you said, but I do appriciate you giving your side of the issue in more depth.

 

Why don't the mods of the WWE folder make a list of all of the posters who have a history of flaming other posters, causing trouble, and the such, and work from that? Perhaps make a post asking everyone to give names of people who do so, and write them all down. Say that you are going to start the WWE folder totally fresh, and everyone has a clean record. Then keep a special eye on everyone on your list for a while, since there are specific people that usually start the flaming wars.

 

You can spot who the moron is instantly in any of the threads where the crap goes on, we need to deal with those people instead of coming up with a big list of brand new rules.

 

So, even though I'm "taking away time that Sass and 'yourself' could be devoting the right way", there are my opinions on everything.