Agree/disagree with the following statements?

[Guest Ray]

1) Brock Lesnar outperformed Eddie Guerrero in their No Way Out match.

 

and

 

2) Brock Lesnar may soon be the best wrestler in WWE, if he continues to improve at his current rate.

 

Some might find those to be rather bold statements, but not me! He controlled most of the NWO match, establishing his physical presence well, taunting Eddie wonderfully, bumping/selling like a king for Eddie, providing interesting transtions (jumping knee~!). Add to that his past performances against Big Show (which NO one else could have done). He's also improving on the mic (but that's of little relevance to his wrestling which is the subject here).

 

Really, I can't see many in WWE performing as well as Brock is now. He's already better than most in WWE. He's better than Angle right now, better than anyone not named Benoit, Eddie or Jericho, and, well Jericho hasn't done much lately and Benoit isn't what he once was, and guys like London who can wrestle better than Brock aren't allowed to.

 

 

Discuss....

[Guest Coffey]

Hmm. I think No Way Out was a joint effort on both mens part. Brock selling the leg really helped the match.

 

I do agree with the second statement though. Especially considering his age, so a lot of the IWC's favorites won't be around as long as him.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

1) Brock Lesnar outperformed Eddie Guerrero in their No Way Out match.

 

True, I just watched it and Brock owned that match. He relied a lil too much on suplexes IMO, but it looked like whenever there was a mistake and botch in the match (the figure four spot looked to be that way) it seemed like Brock was the one who compensated. Eddies hurricanrana/powerbomb spot which Brock turned into a sort of spinning throw. Brock showed a lot of veteran ring awareness in the match. Not to take away from Eddie, I like how alot psychology of the match played out (Brock stops Eddie from coming into the ring early on in the match, as if to say "you don't belong in this ring", Eddie then -throughout the match- uses the ring to his advantage. He plays the system. This is something that I don't believe was brought up and I found it really added to the match. You can see a dozen ways how Eddie uses the ring to his advantage. And how he takes advantage of opportunities) Brocks leg selling, for the most part, was good. The F5 spot doesn't really help it, though. I thought Eddies rib selling was horrible. After Brock tears into his mid-section Eddie ends up i)doing the triple vertical, and b)hitting the frog splash for the win. That completely negates all the work Brock did (which was a _ton_). Brock's "mat wrestling" (gutwrench bearhug into a throw, the rolling bridging pins, the german suplexes) were really neat to see. Brock saying "DIE!" was great. Though I think he relied on the same move(s) a little too much; but admittedly, he did try to change it up a lil bit (crossface chicken wing with the hooks in, turned into a sleeper). Eddie "rising" from the sleeper and "looking to a higher power" is something I also found really fun. I'd give it **** and alot of that is based on Brocks work (and some was taken away by Eddies).

 

2) Brock Lesnar may soon be the best wrestler in WWE, if he continues to improve at his current rate.

 

Hard to say. He is limited by his experience in the WWE system. Kurt Angle showed a lot of promise but has since plateaued and didn't really reach that full potential that people expected of him. I think that Brock is better than Angle, he uses the ring better, he incorporates his amateur work better, he uses his size better, he has better moves, he paces better. But whether or not he will reach _that_ level of the great workers, I dunno. _The Best_ in the WWE is a little more likely, given his age. But being the best in the WWE isn't exactly the feather in the cap that Brock's talent really deserves, IMO.

[Guest Anglesault]

I have to watch the No Way Out match, but I've been loving all of Brock's work (well, except anything involving Bob Holly, but as long as I'm deleting January for Eddie/Angle, that can go too) for a while now.

[AndrewTS 0]

2) Brock Lesnar may soon be the best wrestler in WWE, if he continues to improve at his current rate.

 

Hard to say. He is limited by his experience in the WWE system. Kurt Angle showed a lot of promise but has since plateaued and didn't really reach that full potential that people expected of him.

 

Agreed completely. If Brock toured the world like Benoit, Jericho, Eddy--he could be head-and-shoulders above the rest as the best in a relatively short time. However, in WWE, there's only so good you can get because of the "WWE style." Angle has peaked already, and his selling problems and tendency to just throw a lot of suplexes when he runs out of moves make him great for WWE, but compared to others on a worldwide scale, not that good.

 

The Iron Man match exposed both guys weaknesses greatly.

[Guest Anglesault]

Ah, the Iron Man.

 

Aside from exposing both guys weaknessess as wrestlers, it was the one of the most stupidly booked matches in a long time. It's like creative couldn't decide who make look worse.

[Guest webmasterofwrestlegame]

I'm not too 'in the know' about these things, but doesn't the heel lead the matches?

 

If so, wouldn't Brock call the match regardless of seniority?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

In the WWE the heel generally is the most dominant wrestler in the match (that's their overused formula), so he would control most of the match. However, to just write-it-off as "the heel leads" is to ignore certain things. The ref, the bookers, and the agents help form the match. Wrestlers with seniority and most experience often get to lead (Taker vs. Cena, for example... Taker vs. Anybody, really). Or sometimes two wrestlers just let it all happen naturally and react to each other accordingly - they give and take. Of course, we don't actually _know_ what exactly the bookers/agents say, or what the ref says, or who is given the task to control most of the match, or whatever else there is decide backstage. BUT, we can watch. We can watch their reactions, we can watch them "give" or feed a move, the little things like pauses, usually there is a 'trademark' spot a wrestler carries with him that he'll use, there's the circumstances surrounding the match (crowd). There's way too many variables in what makes a match just to assume that "the heel leads". There's too many to just write it off as "Brock made that match because he was a heel". That's writting off _the work_ done in the match. Yes, Brock controlled most of the match because he was a heel, but the instances which I saw which lended itself to Brock "out performing" Eddie wasn't because of his time given to dominate.

[muzz 0]

I would have to agree with the first statement. I couldn't get away from the fact, as Rudo mentioned, that the work Brock did on Eddie's midsection was all for naught. I feel that if he had sold them better (if at all really) it would have made for a much more exciting finish, and made Eddie look stronger.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I gotta rewatch this again but the impression I got was that while I liked both Lesnar (Loved the knee to the corner) and Eddie here, Lesnar seemed a little lost at points. He was putting Eddie in various holds on the mat just to kill time which ruint the flow of this for me. It was like a match that too quickly built-went back down-built back up again-go back down again. Than there was an ending that seemed to be a little out of the blue for what they were building to. Too quick for me. Not enough of a payoff. I liked Eddie's performance better here as I felt he played his role better. I hate picking on matches that I like but that's how I felt.

 

Does Lesnar have a shot to be the best in the WWE someday?

 

Sure. Almost anyone does really. First off he's as impressive an athelete that I've seen for someone his size and he obviously cares about what he's doing in the ring. So he's got that. He also has the advantage of wrestling long matches all the time to get practise in. THe only problem I think he has is that he gets a little lost after the match goes over a certain period of time. One other problem could possably be injuries really nagging him because as either champion or contender he's always wrestling in long matches. That could haunt him down the road.

[NoCalMike 0]

Umm, to both questions without hesitation.....NO.

[CanadianChick 0]

I haven't, sad to say, seen the NWO match yet, so I can't comment on statement #1.

 

The #2 statement is an interesting thought. As others have said, lack of experience outside of the WWE enviroment could prevent him from being the best all-around wrestler ever in WWE. But I would venture to say that maybe in the next couple years, he could be the best WWE-produced wrestler. By this, I mean not only the OVW crop, but other wrestlers that haven't really wrestled anywhere else but the WWE and North American style (Angle, Edge, Christian, ect.).

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

If you have a fast computer, it's up at Sledgehammer forums. Hell, it was up a day after the show. I had to give it a week long grace period before I could look at it objectively.

 

He was putting Eddie in various holds on the mat just to kill time which ruint the flow of this for me.

 

To be fair, the majority (if not all) of those "various holds" were focused on Eddies ribs/cutting off his breath. It's Eddies fault that he didn't sell them. As for the pacing/flow, I thought it was a bit disjointed at times - it didn't go as smoothly as, say, Benoit/Angle RR03 which used breaks but they used them more wisely - but I didn't think they went _too_ long when working the holds. Another note, I liked how Eddie used his elbow to hit at Brocks leg when he had the hooks in, stupid Cole said he was hitting "the midsection" and Tazz didn't bother correcting him. But for the most part, the commentary was good. They didn't play up the more obvious psychological elements which would have added to the match, but they did have their moments.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

1) False

2) True, at the rate that Angle & Benoit (Angle especially) are killing themselves.

[Guest Ray]

Umm, to both questions without hesitation.....NO.

DON'T GIVE ANY REASONS MAN!

 

I'D HATE TO SEE A POST THAT, YOU KNOW, HAS REASONS!

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Than there was an ending that seemed to be a little out of the blue for what they were building to. Too quick for me. Not enough of a payoff.

 

I agree with this. It felt like "ok now let's end it" rather than a natural climax to the match. They could have developed a lot of the things they built in the match (Brocks Leg when hitting the F-5, Eddies Frogsplash), stuff that really gave the work weight. However, it did fit in with the "macro-psychology" of "Eddie uses the ring" and "Eddie takes advantage of the opportunities" in Eddie hitting the frogsplash and Eddie turning the F-5 into a DDT; so it wasn't totally out of place.

[AndrewTS 0]

By this, I mean not only the OVW crop, but other wrestlers that haven't really wrestled anywhere else but the WWE and North American style (Angle, Edge, Christian, ect.).

I'd say right now Brock is superior to Edge or Christian, easily.

 

Christian's offense sucks, although he's a great bump freak. Edge has a lot of the problems RVD does; selling problems complicated by the tendency to fly when he has his legs worked on. The post-Armageddon Smackdown A-Train match, for instance, or the match with Angle where he no-sold the shoulder work.

[Austin3164life 0]

1. Brock Lesnar outperformed Eddie Guerrero in their No Way Out match

 

True. While Eddie Guerrero played the face in peril nicely, Brock played the role of the monster--yet also sneaky--heel to perfection. I liked Brock's offense, which targeted Eddie's mid-section (be it the ribs or the lower-back). Brock executed the transitions crisply and showed excellent ring presence throughout the entire course of the match. Not only did he nail the major sequences and reversals down, but he also nailed the little things down (things that an Austin excelled at). His facial expressions and body language sold the match extremely well. Not only did he put himself over by showing off his intensity, he also developed a somewhat new side to his character, a more cofused, almost psychotic side, which I happen to enjoy. Kudos to Brock, for he really broke out of the "WWE mold" which can plague a wrestler (Kurt Angle anyone?).

 

2. Brock Lesnar may soon be the best wrestler in the WWE, if he continues at his current pace

 

True. If he stays healthy, and is allowed to incorporate his amateur style in his work, then he will definitely become the #1 wrestler in the company. He's young, and he's already better than Kurt Angle (a man dubbed with Brock's potential, but plagued with injuries and the WWE style). A major factor in his development would be if he were to tour Japan or work with someone outside of North America, to get a feel for the psychology/storytelling aspect of a match. If not for him being in the WWE, the question isn't "if" Brock can become the best, but "when?"...

[Guest wildpegasus]

If you have a fast computer, it's up at Sledgehammer forums. Hell, it was up a day after the show. I had to give it a week long grace period before I could look at it objectively.

 

He was putting Eddie in various holds on the mat just to kill time which ruint the flow of this for me.

 

To be fair, the majority (if not all) of those "various holds" were focused on Eddies ribs/cutting off his breath. It's Eddies fault that he didn't sell them. As for the pacing/flow, I thought it was a bit disjointed at times - it didn't go as smoothly as, say, Benoit/Angle RR03 which used breaks but they used them more wisely - but I didn't think they went _too_ long when working the holds. Another note, I liked how Eddie used his elbow to hit at Brocks leg when he had the hooks in, stupid Cole said he was hitting "the midsection" and Tazz didn't bother correcting him. But for the most part, the commentary was good. They didn't play up the more obvious psychological elements which would have added to the match, but they did have their moments.

I remember thinking that but if I remember right Brock went to this a pretty good bit. The holds were just too loose for me to believe that he was actually injuring Eddie. It probably was the intention but I just couldn't buy it. If they were tightened a bit more, I would've been okay with it. That's something Brock has to work on.

[Guest Ghettoman]

RRR whats the link to that sledgehammer site?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

If you have a fast computer, it's up at Sledgehammer forums.  Hell, it was up a day after the show.  I had to give it a week long grace period before I could look at it objectively.

 

He was putting Eddie in various holds on the mat just to kill time which ruint the flow of this for me.

 

To be fair, the majority (if not all) of those "various holds" were focused on Eddies ribs/cutting off his breath.  It's Eddies fault that he didn't sell them.  As for the pacing/flow, I thought it was a bit disjointed at times - it didn't go as smoothly as, say, Benoit/Angle RR03 which used breaks but they used them more wisely - but I didn't think they went _too_ long when working the holds.  Another note, I liked how Eddie used his elbow to hit at Brocks leg when he had the hooks in, stupid Cole said he was hitting "the midsection" and Tazz didn't bother correcting him.  But for the most part, the commentary was good.  They didn't play up the more obvious psychological elements which would have added to the match, but they did have their moments.

I remember thinking that but if I remember right Brock went to this a pretty good bit. The holds were just too loose for me to believe that he was actually injuring Eddie. It probably was the intention but I just couldn't buy it. If they were tightened a bit more, I would've been okay with it. That's something Brock has to work on.

I pointed this one out in the OAO No Way Out thread. Tazz and Cole sell Brocks submission moves aka rest holds like they're death when they look a tad weak for somebody of Brock's build and character. Plus, to my knowledge, he hasn't got a tap out from the bearhug since Hogan (first and only) and nobody has ever tapped to the side gutwrench, choke or chickenwing.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Yeah, the only move the fans really buy is the Brocklock 03, it's a wonder why he never put it on Guerrero. The next best bet is the Hogankiller (bearhug) which at least has more dramatic flare than the "rear naked choke" (FUCK YOU TAZZ! That's clearly a sleeper!) or the guthug. The chickenwing was the only submission, IMO, that looked 'weak' on the part of Brock (the guthug just looking inherently bad, though the transition into the throw was very nice); so weak that they never even called it a crossface chickenwing. I did, however, dig Tazz saying what the STF stood for.

 

http://www.jerich9478.com/xslh1/index.php

 

^Sledgehammer^

 

Ya gonna have to sign up, though.

[Scroby 0]

selling problems complicated by the tendency to fly when he has his legs worked on.

 

You know I sorta have to disagree with that comment and I'm going to most likely be bashed to hell for it. But just because your legs are worked on, doesn't really mean you can't fly. Yes you shouldn't fly all the way across the ring and yes it should be limited. But just because you have your legs worked for a certain period of time, doesn't mean you still can't jump.

[Guest I Got Banned for Sucking]

I apologise for the fact that I can't back up my answers with opinions just here, but:

 

For the first statement, that's a hard call to make.

 

For statement two - Ditto.

[Guest Suicide King]

1 - I try my hardest to never ever attribute a match to just one participant. I try not to say "Wrestler A carried Wrestler B." As someone before me said, every match is a direct result of all the people in the ring. This may sound odd, but I would think that it takes considerable skill to be carried to a good match. All I know is that was a damned fine match, with two damned fine wrestlers in it.

 

2 - I don't know. He's already really good. If he gets even better, it will be a wonderful thing.

[Guest TheHulkster]

First off, Brock is probably the best athlete in the WWE and he has an incredible physique. The one problem IMO, as hard as it might be for some people to believe, is that he still hasn't really exhibited that "It" factor to the degree that he could. There have been times when I have watched a Lesnar match and thought "Man, this guy is a star", but they have been very few and far between. It will probably come with experience, but having him in the level of limelight he's recieved at his age and level of experience has hurt more than it has helped. I think his time away from the belt now will be a true proving ground of his worth as a star caliber performer. A lot of people might disagree, but i'm still not convinced that he's reached his prime quite yet.