Thoughts on HHH

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I always wondered how Triple H could hang around someone like Flair, who's been in the business twice as long as anyone else in WWE, and not wake up to himself in terms of his political backstage antics. One may argue Flair isn't one to talk, but it's still comforting Flair has his head on straight and is feeding Hunter the right advice.

 

UYI

Because EVERY top guys has done this at one point or another. It's nothing new with HHH.

[Guest Loss]

By the way, Meltzer never said they sat down and had a talk. He just said that HHH does go to Flair for advice a lot on how he works programs, and Flair's outlook on wrestling is rubbing off on HHH. There was no, "Your spot is secure, do jobs!" speech.

 

He also said that HHH publicly pretends to be above all the criticism, but that privately, it drives him crazy, and that the point of the booking this year has been to give a giant "fuck you" to his doubters.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

A thread praising HHH? I thought i would never see the day but i guess hell has frozen over. IMO HHH is still a political scumbag, always trying to steal the spotlight from others just to satisfy his ego. Vince tried to build WWE around HHH as their #1 face back in 2002 and it bombed, he lost the undisputed title a month after Mania and he turned heel by Summerslam. Then as a heel champion he made sure to destroy any chances for RVD,Jericho,Book and even Kane to become main eventers, and even though he's been doing the right thing for the last few months RAW is still his show instead of being Benoit's show who happens to be the World heavyweight champ. HHH wishes he was Flair but he is starting to look like Dusty Rhodes due to the lack of steroid injections.

It bombed because HHH just isn't a sympathetic character, and the feuds were more based around Steph then anyone else.

 

Oh and the Hulkamania fiasco.

[Vyce 0]

It's going to take a LOT more than a month or so of HHH putting people over (well.....in his own way, I suppose) for me to forgo my HHHate.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Sorry Loss, but Flair has been rubbing elbows with management since the time that Crockett Jr bought him and buddies private planes to fly from event to event for no reason. He's enjoyed the fruits of being close with the boss probably before that even.

 

So he wasn't booking himself on top repeatedly? Fine, I don't think HHH really booked his own matches either. He probably complained if he didn't like a finish, but if he was really changing his own finishes around we'd have known it (like we found out each time Goldberg whined to have a match changed.) So perhaps while Flair wasn't booking himself to be godly, neither was HHH, I think. However, both guys enjoy(ed) being close to those at the top and getting job perks for it.

 

Therefore, the HHH/Flair comparison isn't that far off.

[Guest Man Of 1,004 Modes]

What ever happend to the days when people just watched wrestling because they wanted to, and didn't need to piss and moan about people playing politics?

[humongous2002 0]

Kayfabe is dead, Vince made that possible.

[Guest sanyo]

I think this thread's title will change again when HHH beats Benoit in a month or two. Then Benoit will be wrestling on Heat against Albert and HHH will be burying someone else.

[Guest Loss]

Sorry Loss, but Flair has been rubbing elbows with management since the time that Crockett Jr bought him and buddies private planes to fly from event to event for no reason. He's enjoyed the fruits of being close with the boss probably before that even.

 

So he wasn't booking himself on top repeatedly? Fine, I don't think HHH really booked his own matches either. He probably complained if he didn't like a finish, but if he was really changing his own finishes around we'd have known it (like we found out each time Goldberg whined to have a match changed.) So perhaps while Flair wasn't booking himself to be godly, neither was HHH, I think. However, both guys enjoy(ed) being close to those at the top and getting job perks for it.

 

Therefore, the HHH/Flair comparison isn't that far off.

You missed the entire point, which was that anything Flair ever did never adversely affected the product. Flair was also the biggest draw, the best worker, the biggest name and the best promo. HHH has been none of the above at any point in the past few years. Therefore, Flair was enjoying the benefits of being a top guy, and in his glory years, no one was a threat to his spot because there was no possible way to dispute that he was the best in the promotion. HHH can be disputed all day long, even at his peak. Flair can hob nob all he wants if he's not hurting the company. HHH could too, but his actions contributed to killing the wrestling boom.

[Secret Agent 0]

I'd just like to point back to the fact that nothing HHH does doesn't have Vince's approval... So aren't you guys realistically trashing the wrong guy?

[Jack_Bauer 0]

Here are my thoughts on HHH.

 

Last years title reign would have been awesome if HHH was making the effort that he is making now. I couldn't give a shit if he had the title for 5 straight years, so long as he was producing the matches that we are seeing from him just now. I don't ask for much. All I ask for is good wrestling, and HHH gives it to me.

[Guest Choken One]

Well...Last year...he had to work with the TRIFECTA of bad workers (steiner, Nash, Berg)...he really didn't have the ability to have a great run.

 

The best thing that ever happened to him and us as fans was his movie deal. That forced him to bust his ass back in fighting shape and that less muscle mass has allowed him to work better.

[Guest LiberalFlip]

Sorry Loss, but Flair has been rubbing elbows with management since the time that Crockett Jr bought him and buddies private planes to fly from event to event for no reason. He's enjoyed the fruits of being close with the boss probably before that even.

 

So he wasn't booking himself on top repeatedly? Fine, I don't think HHH really booked his own matches either. He probably complained if he didn't like a finish, but if he was really changing his own finishes around we'd have known it (like we found out each time Goldberg whined to have a match changed.) So perhaps while Flair wasn't booking himself to be godly, neither was HHH, I think. However, both guys enjoy(ed) being close to those at the top and getting job perks for it.

 

Therefore, the HHH/Flair comparison isn't that far off.

You missed the entire point, which was that anything Flair ever did never adversely affected the product. Flair was also the biggest draw, the best worker, the biggest name and the best promo. HHH has been none of the above at any point in the past few years. Therefore, Flair was enjoying the benefits of being a top guy, and in his glory years, no one was a threat to his spot because there was no possible way to dispute that he was the best in the promotion. HHH can be disputed all day long, even at his peak. Flair can hob nob all he wants if he's not hurting the company. HHH could too, but his actions contributed to killing the wrestling boom.

Never adversely affected the product??? For Fuck’s sake, Crockett went out of business with Flair as champ.

 

This Dave Meltzer led indoctrination portraying Flair as this Patron Saint is pretty damn comical. I mean, Flair had a virtual stranglehold on the NWA for almost a decade where no heels were pushed (or baby faces) except him and his friends. (the Ronnie Garvin Starrcade 1987 fiasco was one of the most embarrassing power plays in wrestling history) Shit, from the time he got pushed, he really didn’t put anyone over in any significant fashion until 1990. That’s why everyone blames Dusty for the NWA…to cover for Flair’s bullshit. Flair didn’t start getting abused until he lost power to Hogan in the mid-90’s.

 

Plus, Flair is so obscenely overrated as a performer. About as overrated as Triple H’s backstage shenanigans. What can you say, gotta sell Newsletters!

[JasonX 0]

The reason why Flair gets suck a break and has people like Meltzer whitewashing his various power plays, is do to the fact that he was the lesser of two evils. And when you consider who the greater evil was (IE Dusty Rhodes) you can see why people are willing to give Flair a free pass given what the alternative was

 

That being said, HHH's biggest fuck-up has and will always be the fact that he let himself be his own biggest political enemy. For someone who is supposed to be the most manipulative man in wrestling, HHH should have spent less time banging Steph and sucking up to Vince and being more concerned with making his rivals in the backstage bullshit department (UT and Austin) even more hated than he was.

 

And as for the "It's all Vince's Fault" line, it doesn't hold any water for regards to defending HHH. If HHH actually was fighting against Vince to improve the product and makes things better instead of sucking up to Vince and never outright telling Vince that the things he was doing wrong were indeed wrong, then I could see the point. But that being said, HHH never once used his powers for the good of the company and as a result deserves equal if not MORE blame do to the fact that the only time HHH could be counted on to tell Vince no was whne it came to his own selfish goals...

[Guest Mad the Swine]

Never adversely affected the product??? For Fuck’s sake, Crockett went out of business with Flair as champ.

 

This Dave Meltzer led indoctrination portraying Flair as this Patron Saint is pretty damn comical. I mean, Flair had a virtual stranglehold on the NWA for almost a decade where no heels were pushed (or baby faces) except him and his friends. (the Ronnie Garvin Starrcade 1987 fiasco was one of the most embarrassing power plays in wrestling history) Shit, from the time he got pushed, he really didn’t put anyone over in any significant fashion until 1990. That’s why everyone blames Dusty for the NWA…to cover for Flair’s bullshit. Flair didn’t start getting abused until he lost power to Hogan in the mid-90’s.

 

Plus, Flair is so obscenely overrated as a performer. About as overrated as Triple H’s backstage shenanigans. What can you say, gotta sell Newsletters!

Flair was champ when Crockett went under, but could you elaborate on why he deserves the blame for it?

 

Dusty's booking hurt the company and Crockett mostly killed himself.

 

Dusty de-valued the belt. Flair couldn't look strong anymore, not when the finishes made him look ridiculously weak.

 

And actually, Flair may have saved the whole operation. Turner wasn't interested if Flair wasn't coming along.

 

But, on to Crockett.

 

He overspent badly.

 

The private planes, first class tickets, and trips west. They didn't do well in LA and San Francisco and others. While attendance was down in some arenas in the east, they were drawing diddly out there. And the transportation costs negated all of it.

 

Crockett spent way too much for the territories he bought out. There's stories that Watts might have fooled him into paying top dollar for the UWF by saying that McMahon was interested. He purchased Central States and nobody from there made him any money in the long run.

 

I don't know how much is true, but Flair says he had nothing to do with Garvin. Supposedly, it was Dusty's deal.

 

Flair put over Sting in 1988 and Magnum in 1985-86. Not for the belt, but that wasn't his call for Magnum and Sting wasn't ready in '88. He was working with Luger in 1987-88. In 1989-90 he was working with and bringing up Pillman.

 

His main Crockett challengers from 1985-88 were Dusty, Nikita, Luger, Windham, Sting, Magnum, and Ron and Jimmy Garvin. Other than Windham, not a one of them were Flair's friends. Magnum was Dusty's buddy and Luger came from Florida, where Rhodes had also been booking.

 

I don't see how any of the 1985-88 stuff was Flair's fault. He wasn't booking or promoting.

 

If there's any blame, it's for being pretty coarse to Luger in 1990.

[reign 0]

I agree that HHH has made a huge change in his style and Raw reflects that..I mean we have the Champion that we want...but I'll never forgive him for Jericho...say what you want about HHH not making main eventers out the Raw wrestlers during his reign...Kane should have never came back as the half-masked "freak" as he called himself...nobody would've taken him seriously...RVD can't cut a promo at all so they couldn't put the belt on him...and when it was Bookers chance...welll I guess that they wanted HHH to defend that belt against Goldberg...Vince had a plan for that belt and that was to establish it...think about that word and how much we bitch about not establishing anything anymore...whoring that belt out to RVD would have devalued such a new title IMO(and I love RVD)....the only thing that really pisses me off is the return and subsequent face run...he should have never been in the main event at Wrestlemania against Jericho and Jericho should've lost the belt later...

[Guest Loss]

Never adversely affected the product??? For Fuck’s sake, Crockett went out of business with Flair as champ.

 

More so, he went out of business with Dusty Rhodes as the booker. Dusty was the one booking the non-decisive finishes, the run-ins, the DQ's, the heel-centric booking, booking himself as the top babyface at points where Magnum, Sting, Nikita and Luger were all more over and fresher. I'd say that had more impact than Flair getting his own jet for big shows because he's the top draw. That is incidental and has nothing to do with anything.

 

This Dave Meltzer led indoctrination portraying Flair as this Patron Saint is pretty damn comical.

 

I agree. I even said above that Flair was no saint.

 

I mean, Flair had a virtual stranglehold on the NWA for almost a decade where no heels were pushed (or baby faces) except him and his friends.

 

Flair had that spot because he was the best in his promotion. He had the "stranglehold" because NO ONE ELSE WAS GOOD ENOUGH TO DO WHAT HE WAS DOING. That seems to be lost on almost all of his naysayers.

 

Who was Flair's friend? Arn Anderson? Oh yeah, the guy who made a career out of being a JTTS and tag wrestler who never advanced above the TV title level. If all of Flair's friends were heels and no heels were being pushed, who were his friends? You contradicted yourself.

 

(the Ronnie Garvin Starrcade 1987 fiasco was one of the most embarrassing power plays in wrestling history)

 

It was not a power play. It was a bad decision with the wrong guy being put in that role. There was no politicking behind it. It was Dusty and Crockett, not Flair, that put the belt on Garvin.

 

Shit, from the time he got pushed, he really didn’t put anyone over in any significant fashion until 1990.

 

He turned Sting from a bland midcarder into a superstar in 45 minutes at the first Clash of the Champions. He was the reason Lex Luger got over. He was the only guy hated enough to turn Nikita Koloff, a Russian, babyface in the middle of a cold war. He made Ricky Morton seem like a credible challenger. He looked like Jericho in the HHH/Steph feud during the whole Baby Doll turn. He traded wins with Steamboat to elevate the program they were having.

 

That’s why everyone blames Dusty for the NWA…to cover for Flair’s bullshit. Flair didn’t start getting abused until he lost power to Hogan in the mid-90’s.

 

Again, wrong. You skipped over the Jim Herd era, where business boosted when he was the top guy and the booker, but he resigned after being told he wasn't drawing enough because the powers-that-be wanted immediate results. He had shown growth and was the only booker who had shown growth.

 

Plus, Flair is so obscenely overrated as a performer. About as overrated as Triple H’s backstage shenanigans. What can you say, gotta sell Newsletters!

 

Flair is overrated in many ways. He was repetitive at times and limited at times. He sometimes wrestled dumbed down matches with workers who didn't need to be carried and the match missed its mark. That has nothing to do with any of his backstage antics, and that's my point. The two are separate to each other.

 

HHH, again, is someone who should be criticized, but Vince is the only who should shoulder most of the blame. And I think most of us would have the same opinions of HHH regardless of what is printed in the newsletters. If anything, Dave Meltzer is pretty diplomatic toward HHH and Wade Keller loves him. The opinions I have come from what I see on TV every week, not what any sheet writer tells me to think.