What are the causes of prisoner abuse in Iraq?

[The Ill One 0]

And then we're not far from heads on pikes.

Hey, cool. It'd get the message across well, wouldn't it? Line the highways with heads on pikes. Man then, if we're lucky, we can get some good ole' lynchin' to display too. Maybe if we pile enough dead Iraqi bodies we could have Bush sit on top. Like Yurtle the Turtle.

 

But come on now, war isn't a fun little game of chess. Emotions run wild and shit happens, not that I'm happy to hear the news (not at all) but I barely have a pang of sympathy. I can bet this will be used countless times to get some terrorists to attempt some bombings or whatever they feel like. We don't need this happening now and I'm glad good ole' Rummy stayed. It's not like the Iraqs are gentlemen or haven't had, oh... gallons of blood on their hands.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

they're human beings. you don't treat them like animals, regardless of what they've done to you.

[Guest thebigjig]

Humiliating evil people isn't barbaric. We've done it before and we'll do it again. The soldiers who set up and took those photographs deserve decorations, not court-martials. And the next time we do this, let's televise it live.

you sound exactly like some toothless, uneducated hicks that I've known throughout the years... infact, when I read the above statement, I could imagine you with a deep southern accent and a pair of overalls... you know, a typical moron that would attend a "freedom rally", jam to good ol' country music, constantly spew how america is the greatest country on the face of the planet... and then make fucking retarded statements like what you just said, completely forgetting WHY America is so great

[Jobber of the Week 0]

we're not far from heads on pikes

Oh goodie.

For someone who ought to understand this stuff, I can't tell if you're ignorant or disgusting.

 

Here's my question to you: If we can't offer safety and POW rights to our prisoners of war, then what is the incentive for anyone to offer a bloodless surrender?

[Firestarter 0]

what is the incentive for anyone to offer a bloodless surrender?

Napalm, maybe?

[Guest hunger4unger]

Ignorance, lack of education and lack of discipline are the primary causes of prisoner abuse in Iraq. Let's remember that the prisoners weren't necessarily terrorists - the 12 year old girl that was beaten with sticks by US soldiers certainly wasn't a terrorist. We are supposed to be the good guys, the ones offering freedom and democracy: we don't even drag our OWN prisoners in jail in America/Britain on a leash so why do it to Iraqi prisoners? We are supposed to be setting an example to the Iraqi people and the arab world.

 

Those in this thread that advocate violence towards POW's and trivialize the abuse are as ignorant and ill-educated as the cowards (yes, cowards) that carried out the widely reported acts of abuse and torture.

 

I am disgusted and quite frankly, at this moment, ashamed to be British.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

what is the incentive for anyone to offer a bloodless surrender?

Napalm, maybe?

But if Cancer Marney decree says that captured prisoners will be treated like dirt and likely killed, people would be more likely to just go ahead and fight.

 

If you don't believe that surrendering works, go back to last year and check out that long line of Iraqis walking from checkpoint to checkpoint alongside the traveling caravan to Baghdad.

[Firestarter 0]

you sound exactly like some toothless

Textbook perfect set of pearly-whites (well, okay, slightly coffee-stained) here, thanks.

 

uneducated

Finishing my doctoral thesis in a year or so.

 

hicks

So if anyone lives in a rural area she's automatically ignorant, inbred, and unemployed. I see. Well, I'm about 5 minutes out of DC, I have a six-figure salary and almost half a million dollars in gold and biotechnology stocks, so that doesn't really apply, but I'll be sure to convey this to my aunt Sarah next time I see her - the one who lives just south of Baton Rouge in a 61 room mansion. Anyway, next.

 

that I've known throughout the years... infact, when I read the above statement, I could imagine you with a deep southern accent

Because as we know, half the country is illiterate and racist. I love the way you "progressives" can't understand that the South has actually changed over the past 100 years.

 

and a pair of overalls...

I'm wearing silk pyjamas from Ralph Lauren right now. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

you know, a typical moron that would attend a "freedom rally"

As opposed to a pro-terrorist rally?

 

jam to good ol' country music

Rarely. I don't like country music on the whole although some of Shania Twain's pop is pretty good. I listen to Darryl Worley's Have You Forgotten and Alan Jackson's Where Were You When the World Stopped Turning? from time to time, though.

 

constantly spew how america is the greatest country on the face of the planet...

Yeah, I say that pretty often.

 

and then make fucking retarded statements like what you just said, completely forgetting WHY America is so great

Nope. I don't forget why America is the greatest country on the face of the earth. I don't forget how we went into Iraq or why we're there, either.

[Firestarter 0]

But if Cancer Marney decree says that captured prisoners will be treated like dirt and likely killed, people would be more likely to just go ahead and fight

Fine. Saves us paperwork.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Fine. Saves us paperwork.

And that's always much more worthwhile than the American lives that would go wasted in the additional fighting.

[Firestarter 0]

And that's always much more worthwhile than the American lives that would go wasted in the additional fighting.

That made me laugh.

 

Earth to JotW: We don't lose even one single American life in actual fighting. We lose them in ambushes and suicide attacks - not situations when the enemy might possibly surrender. Our soldiers are the best in the world, and they rarely suffer even minor injuries when these cowardly scum are forced into a stand-up fight.

[Anorak 0]

Americans and our leaders have shown considerable emotional depth and concern about this. I would certainly hope that the people here that support the President and his Cabinet, and their policies, would display the same degree of concern, embarrassment, class, and responsibilty.

Normal, rational or decent people would.... don't get your hopes up too much.

 

Some people might even start going on about the Nazi's, Saddam and terrorism as if that would be somehow relevant to the topic question posed by the individual who started this thread but that would just be silly.

 

I thought inflicting physical torture and ritual humiliation was learnt at high school in America? Don't you have to suffer a bit of torture to play on the Lacrosse, Rounders or American rugby teams? What passes for 'hazing' over there would get you arrested in any other western country so why the surprise at them indulging in the same pastimes with people of a different race and culture as the victims? It probably makes them feel more at home.

 

I'm just tossing some ideas around here you understand.

 

Maybe its a homosexual thing, we all know the armed forces anywhere have their fair share of those sort and all that male nakedness does make you wonder a bit. When they aren't abusing their prisoners they probably have to make do whipping each other with wet towels.

 

Did anybody see the family of the shrew-faced woman on the news? Some people shouldn't be allowed to breed, there's too many recruits from farms who like to hear a pig squeal joining up to fight.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I'm not just talking about this war, I'm talking about future wars as well.

 

Unless of course you only plan to abolish POW rights when fighting Middle East wars because when it's those people then they're not worth it.

[Anorak 0]

Our soldiers are the best in the world,

The top elite of Israeli or British soldiers would put them to shame.

[Vyce 0]

that I've known throughout the years... infact, when I read the above statement, I could imagine you with a deep southern accent

Because as we know, half the country is illiterate and racist. I love the way you "progressives" can't understand that the South has actually changed over the past 100 years.

Yes, indeed.

 

Since bigjig seems to be all sensitive about people's perceptions of others - perhaps he can start reforming some of his own about Southerners.

 

Hell, two of the biggest critics of the Iraq war that I know are from Texas.

 

I'm wearing silk pyjamas from Ralph Lauren right now.

 

PIX PLZ!!!!

[Guest MikeSC]

they're human beings. you don't treat them like animals, regardless of what they've done to you.

Actually, I say BS.

 

Treat them EXACTLY as they treat you.

 

Show them how "pleasant" it can be.

-=Mike

...But, in the end, we won't do it. We still have some morality.

[Guest MikeSC]

you sound exactly like some toothless, uneducated hicks that I've known throughout the years... infact, when I read the above statement, I could imagine you with a deep southern accent and a pair of overalls... you know, a typical moron that would attend a "freedom rally", jam to good ol' country music, constantly spew how america is the greatest country on the face of the planet... and then make fucking retarded statements like what you just said, completely forgetting WHY America is so great

Said the guy who just ripped off a string of cliches and stereotypes.

 

Doubly ironic, since Marney is markedly more intelligent than you have ever dreamed of being.

 

But nice try. You only made a partial ass of yourself and have made it so that should you ever accuse anybody of negatively stereotyping a soul, it simply makes you quite the little hypocrite.

Maybe its a homosexual thing, we all know the armed forces anywhere have their fair share of those sort and all that male nakedness does make you wonder a bit. When they aren't abusing their prisoners they probably have to make do whipping each other with wet towels.

Hmm, gay-bashing from a progressive. Delicious irony.

The top elite of Israeli or British soldiers would put them to shame.

And the top elite of the American troops would slaughter them before they have the chance.

 

Your point is?

I'm wearing silk pyjamas from Ralph Lauren right now. Sorry to disappoint you.

Wow, me too!

-=Mike

[Guest thebigjig]

Cliches? Hardly... here's a fact you may or may not know about me. I live in Iowa Park... TEXAS

 

A rural hick town near Wichita Falls, which is a few hundred miles from Dallas. I see this shit everyday. I attended a "freedom rally" where yes, 50% of those that attended, wore overalls and had missing teeth. And the themesong to the rally? "Hey Hollywood." A stupid country music song by the... get this... RIGHT Brothers. The lyrics? "Hey Hollywood, we heard your message and it don't sound good..." If you haven't heard this, the moral of the song is: We have opinions too, and we support the war, and if you dont support the war, then you dont like America and should leave. So basically... we all should be allowed to express our opinions because we live in a free country, BUT if you dont support the war, then you dont love America, and you should leave

 

I also live in a family full of hicks. I love them, don't get me wrong, but for the last week, all I've heard is "I dont get the big deal about all this... we should just bomb the entire country off of the fucking planet."

 

I also know that a majority of frustrated, southern white men are Republican, and that Republicans have and will continue to target them as constituents...

 

So I live here... and I KNOW how ridiculously closed minded and ultra conservative this place is. It's the fucking BIBLE belt. So, believe it or not... alot of the south really IS like that. And this is coming from someone who has lived here for 21 years, so it's not like I'm a New Yorker who sees an episode of Hee-Haw every now and then on cable and automatically assumes the south is like that, although some of it is... example: Punkin Center... thats right PUNKIN Center, a small town about 30 miles from here

 

"The South? Isnt that the place where the black guys are really lazy, but all the white guys are just as lazy but they're mad at the black guys for being so lazy?" - Peter Griffin, Family Guy

[Guest thebigjig]

So if anyone lives in a rural area she's automatically ignorant, inbred, and unemployed. I see. Well, I'm about 5 minutes out of DC, I have a six-figure salary and almost half a million dollars in gold and biotechnology stocks, so that doesn't really apply, but I'll be sure to convey this to my aunt Sarah next time I see her - the one who lives just south of Baton Rouge in a 61 room mansion. Anyway, next

 

 

oooh wow... would you like a cookie? A golden cookie? By the way, if you would've read my sarcastic statement a little more clearly, you would see that I wasnt saying that you WERE a toothless hick that lived in a doublewide or whatever... I said that you SOUNDED like one.

 

Finishing my doctoral thesis in a year or so.

 

Well then you should go back and take Democracy 101... apparently you skipped out on that. I find it hard to believe that you got that far without reason and common sense... of course, for all I know you could be Anne Coulter, and she's very successful, albeit just as ridiculously closed minded and hysterical

 

I'm wearing silk pyjamas from Ralph Lauren right now. Sorry to disappoint you

 

cheap... shouldn't you be wearing Gucci?

 

Rarely. I don't like country music on the whole although some of Shania Twain's pop is pretty good. I listen to Darryl Worley's Have You Forgotten and Alan Jackson's Where Were You When the World Stopped Turning? from time to time, though.

 

Ah yes... "Whose bed has your boots been under?" is quite brilliant...

[Firestarter 0]

oooh wow... would you like a cookie? A golden cookie?

Sure, I haven't had any cookies today and I'm having a hard time sleeping. I'd like a glass of warm milk too while you're up.

 

cheap... shouldn't you be wearing Gucci?

I don't wear anything from Gucci anymore. Long story.

 

Ah yes... "Whose bed has your boots been under?" is quite brilliant

"Have." At least she gets her verbs right. But no, I was thinking of From This Moment and You're Still The One.

[Guest Sagrada3099]

So, I'm asking a question here, and I'm not trying to incite anymore anger here, so a simple answer would suffice.

 

Marney and MikeSC - So you two are more or less advocating a sort of "eye for an eye" system of dealing with enemies, right? I see merit in that, if that is the case.

 

Others - We gotta realize something, and that is these guys DESPISE America. Now, we'd like to caution terrorists to "not get dealt with", but simple fact of the matter is, they drew the line in the sand. We have to follow through and set an example here so that future transgressions DO NOT HAPPEN. I'm not advocating torture. I'm simply advocating the swift hand of justice being brought upon those who decided to shed the blood of American citizens. Their sin was fucking with me and mine.

[Firestarter 0]

Marney... you... are more or less advocating a sort of "eye for an eye" system of dealing with enemies, right?

Essentially, what I was trying to get across was that I don't really care if we're mean to the terrorists. I don't care if we hurt their little feelings, I don't care if we make their families hate us even more, and I don't care if we offend their religious sensibilities. In fact I'm all for it.

 

If the further allegations of torture (sexual and otherwise) and murder prove to be true, then I'll support any prosecution of the responsible soldiers. There's no excuse for that sort of thing, no matter what. But simple humiliation (which is all I've seen so far) and a couple of stupid snapshots? No. Maybe withhold a month's pay at most.

 

What annoys me the most is that these incidents (again, as far as we know at this time) are isolated rather than systemic, insignificant rather than grave, and few rather than many. Nevertheless, the foreigners and our own press are almost exuberantly portraying them as exactly the opposite in every respect, as if they're on the level of the goddamn Holocaust. The inflated, grandiose pomposity of calling the "shaming" of terrorists (and I consider every last person in Iraq who attacks our soldiers to be a terrorist by definition) an "atrocity" - that truly beggars the imagination. The "apologies" were unnecessary, unwise, and undeserved.

 

Look. I'm sick of the fucking Moslems. Just thinking about them makes me feel physically ill. I don't care if their culture places women just a notch below dogs, and as a result they consider the fact that a female soldier humiliated the male terrorists a mortal insult. I don't give a flying fuck. I'm tired of hearing about their evil culture. I'm tired of hearing about their sick, twisted religion. I'm tired of listening to the crap about cultural sensitivity. They've done much worse and they've gloried in it, and I refuse to have our people judged by such disgusting subhuman filth under any circumstances. I'm tired of all the goddamn liberals and the snivelling Europeans demanding that we be nice to terrorists who want to kill us, and then claiming we're worse than terrorists ourselves on the rare occasions when we're mean. I'm tired of the hypocrisy and the whining and the bullshit. Send every last one to hell and be done with it.

[Anorak 0]

Maybe its a homosexual thing, we all know the armed forces anywhere have their fair share of those sort and all that male nakedness does make you wonder a bit. When they aren't abusing their prisoners they probably have to make do whipping each other with wet towels.

Hmm, gay-bashing from a progressive. Delicious irony.

My god, how somebody like you can stick a label of ignorance on anybody is laughable. I almost choked on my cornflakes.

 

I thought the obvious flaw of my post was how it fell awkwardly between being serious and facetious, as far as i'm concerned no 'gay bashing' (as you so eloquently put it) was present there at all, apart from the 'their sort' line I can't see a poor choice of words anywhere. A gay bloke I used to play football with (no, really!) used to tell stories about whipping lads he fancied with a wet towel when he was at school (not the sort of tale i'd tell to amuse a gaybasher if I was gay to be honest) so I admit I stole that line. We used to take the piss out of gay culture a bit when we went out with him but if you've ever socialised with any gay people before you'd know when it comes to trading banter with most of them they always come up with the best lines.

 

If you meant 'progressive' as me being a less narrow-minded or bigoted person than yourself then i'm guilty as charged I suppose. Now, at the risk of being called a twat-basher i'm to tell you to fuck off and don't be so cheeky in future.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

Marney... you... are more or less advocating a sort of "eye for an eye" system of dealing with enemies, right?

Essentially, what I was trying to get across was that I don't really care if we're mean to the terrorists. I don't care if we hurt their little feelings, I don't care if we make their families hate us even more, and I don't care if we offend their religious sensibilities. In fact I'm all for it.

 

If the further allegations of torture (sexual and otherwise) and murder prove to be true, then I'll support any prosecution of the responsible soldiers. There's no excuse for that sort of thing, no matter what. But simple humiliation (which is all I've seen so far) and a couple of stupid snapshots? No. Maybe withhold a month's pay at most.

 

What annoys me the most is that these incidents (again, as far as we know at this time) are isolated rather than systemic, insignificant rather than grave, and few rather than many. Nevertheless, the foreigners and our own press are almost exuberantly portraying them as exactly the opposite in every respect, as if they're on the level of the goddamn Holocaust. The inflated, grandiose pomposity of calling the "shaming" of terrorists (and I consider every last person in Iraq who attacks our soldiers to be a terrorist by definition) an "atrocity" - that truly beggars the imagination. The "apologies" were unnecessary, unwise, and undeserved.

 

Look. I'm sick of the fucking Moslems. Just thinking about them makes me feel physically ill. I don't care if their culture places women just a notch below dogs, and as a result they consider the fact that a female soldier humiliated the male terrorists a mortal insult. I don't give a flying fuck. I'm tired of hearing about their evil culture. I'm tired of hearing about their sick, twisted religion. I'm tired of listening to the crap about cultural sensitivity. They've done much worse and they've gloried in it, and I refuse to have our people judged by such disgusting subhuman filth under any circumstances. I'm tired of all the goddamn liberals and the snivelling Europeans demanding that we be nice to terrorists who want to kill us, and then claiming we're worse than terrorists ourselves on the rare occasions when we're mean. I'm tired of the hypocrisy and the whining and the bullshit. Send every last one to hell and be done with it.

This is pretty disgusting. These POW's aren't terrorists. They're soldiers. If American troops were treated like this you'd be demanding the soldiers heads on a platter but since it's being done by America it's no bif deal and people are making a huge thing out of something minor.

 

They're human beings. They're beliefs about women and thier religion don't change that no matter how wrong we find them to be. They deserve to be treated better than that.

 

All this does is escalate things even more. An eye for an eye won't help anything. This war isn't supposed to be about revenge or humilation it's about ensuring peace for the Western World.

[Firestarter 0]

These POW's aren't terrorists

Yes they are. They are not POWs. They are illegal enemy combatants and terrorists.

 

They're soldiers

No they aren't. Soldiers do not carry out deliberate attacks on civilian targets and soldiers are answerable to a state authority.

 

If American troops were treated like this you'd be demanding the soldiers heads on a platter but since it's being done by America it's no bif deal and people are making a huge thing out of something minor

This might be correct if indeed they did treat American troops in such a manner. However, they do not. They murder and burn our troops and civilians indiscriminately, mutilate and dismember the charred bodies, and then hang the shattered remains on bridges to glory in their display.

 

They're human beings

Incorrect. They are subhuman monkeys.

 

They're beliefs about women and thier religion don't change that

Yes they do.

 

They deserve to be treated better

No they don't. They deserve to be treated far, far worse. But, unfortunately, we're too nice to do the right thing.

 

All this does is escalate things even more

Good.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

They are subhuman monkeys.

Racist...

[Firestarter 0]

Thanks.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Join the club. Just remember to pay your dues, in gold if possible.

 

Soooooooo, why don't you wear Gucci anymore? It made my nuts itch -- that's why I don't wear that line...

[snuffbox 0]

Marney... you... are more or less advocating a sort of "eye for an eye" system of dealing with enemies, right?

Essentially, what I was trying to get across was that I don't really care if we're mean to the terrorists. I don't care if we hurt their little feelings, I don't care if we make their families hate us even more, and I don't care if we offend their religious sensibilities. In fact I'm all for it.

 

If the further allegations of torture (sexual and otherwise) and murder prove to be true, then I'll support any prosecution of the responsible soldiers. There's no excuse for that sort of thing, no matter what. But simple humiliation (which is all I've seen so far) and a couple of stupid snapshots? No. Maybe withhold a month's pay at most.

 

What annoys me the most is that these incidents (again, as far as we know at this time) are isolated rather than systemic, insignificant rather than grave, and few rather than many. Nevertheless, the foreigners and our own press are almost exuberantly portraying them as exactly the opposite in every respect, as if they're on the level of the goddamn Holocaust. The inflated, grandiose pomposity of calling the "shaming" of terrorists (and I consider every last person in Iraq who attacks our soldiers to be a terrorist by definition) an "atrocity" - that truly beggars the imagination. The "apologies" were unnecessary, unwise, and undeserved.

 

Look. I'm sick of the fucking Moslems. Just thinking about them makes me feel physically ill. I don't care if their culture places women just a notch below dogs, and as a result they consider the fact that a female soldier humiliated the male terrorists a mortal insult. I don't give a flying fuck. I'm tired of hearing about their evil culture. I'm tired of hearing about their sick, twisted religion. I'm tired of listening to the crap about cultural sensitivity. They've done much worse and they've gloried in it, and I refuse to have our people judged by such disgusting subhuman filth under any circumstances. I'm tired of all the goddamn liberals and the snivelling Europeans demanding that we be nice to terrorists who want to kill us, and then claiming we're worse than terrorists ourselves on the rare occasions when we're mean. I'm tired of the hypocrisy and the whining and the bullshit. Send every last one to hell and be done with it.

So far we have brutal beatings, rapes, humiliations, etc....

 

Still to come, according to Sec. Rumsfeld - Videos of young boys being raped, beatings nearly to death, rape of female Iraqis, and more descriptive videos and photos...

 

To Marney and Mike, and any other ignorant 'kill em all' people here - Please take an example from some of the embarrasment, responsibility, and class shown by Rumsfeld and others.

 

Rape, beatings, torture etc is NOT simple humiliation, and no matter how hard you try to justify it - Terrorism does not eradicate Terrorism.

[Guest cobainwasmurdered]

nothing changes the fact that they are human. Wether or not you agree with what they do they are still human beings.

 

They're actions make them bad people deserving punishment but not the kind these troops have decided to hand out. Calling them "sub-human monkeys" is stupid. Name calling and posturing doesn't change the fact that they are still people.

 

It's no excuse for their actions but they are still human beings and it is wrong to degrade them like this. they are fighting for a cause they believe in, wether we approve or not.