Yeah, it'll probably win the GameFAQs poll...

[chaosrage 0]

If the end is supposed to be that Holy decides humanity is bad and helps Meteor then what's the point of the Lifestream part?

The lifestream saves the planet from the Meteor. The meteor doesn't actually hit you know. That's why there's no impact crater 500 years later. The lifestream destroyed the meteor and Holy made the people disappear.

 

What would the point be to Bugenhagen saying Holy would have to make a choice about the human race if it doesn't do it? If "having the opposite effect" was a translation error, you might as well cut that entire conversation out. And what the hell even is the point of Holy if it doesn't do anything at all in the game? That wouldn't make any sense. At least the ending with all the people gone, like it or hate it, makes sense and ties the game together.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

It continues with very few twists

 

That's such a crock of shit. I had no fucking clue what was going on in this game.

[Anya 0]

The lifestream saves the planet from the Meteor. The meteor doesn't actually hit you know. That's why there's no impact crater 500 years later. The lifestream destroyed the meteor and Holy made the people disappear.

 

 

If Holy had worked why would the Lifestream be needed? It should have stopped the meteor, even if it decided to kill people.

 

The point of the lifestream is that Holy failed...if it had worked there wouldn't be a need for it.

 

And we know Holy didn't just make people disapear. It hits the Highwind and does nothing to them.

 

 

 

What would the point be to Bugenhagen saying Holy would have to make a choice about the human race if it doesn't do it?

 

 

The comment adds suspense.

 

It does make a choice though and it decides that meteor is the threat and goes after it.

 

 

If "having the opposite effect" was a translation error, you might as well cut that entire conversation out.

 

 

The line is important because it establishes why Holy failed(it was too late) and points out that the threat goes beyond Midgar.

 

 

 

And what the hell even is the point of Holy if it doesn't do anything at all in the game? That wouldn't make any sense. At least the ending with all the people gone, like it or hate it, makes sense and ties the game together.

 

 

It does do something, it just doesn't work. The point of it is to give the player a clear cut way of stopping Sephiroth for the final part of the game as well as making it more exciting when the lifestream ends up saving the day in the end.

 

 

The ending makes perfect sense the way I see it. They summon Holy but it is too late(which is something they bring up the possibility of earlier). However the spirit of everything that lived before comes in and saves the day. In the end the very thing Sephiroth tried to abuse and manipulate is his undoing. There's no people seen in the quick shot 500 years later because there doesn't have to be, the point is just to be a shot of nature. The children laughing after it tells you people lived on.

[EricMM 0]

I always got the impression that holy was released too late, and the effect of it interacting with meteor would eventually destroy meteor, but it would also destroy the earth.

 

It'd be like using a nuke to destroy a meteor, fine in space but not in the atmosphere.

[AndrewTS 0]

Newer RPGs, even though many of them are obtuse, preachy, and pretentious, kinda blow this previous effort out of the water in every way, don't they?

Not really. Maybe on a technical level, but that's it. RPG gameplay mechanics and storytelling hasn't changed much since FF VII, so the only real improvement is graphics and that doesn't really matter a whole lot.

I beg to differ. We've seem some of the newer RPGs--Dark Cloud, Kingdom Hearts, Valkyrie Profile, etc. move more toward a faster based gameplay style, instead of the same ol' turn-based Final Fantasy stuff. Yeah, a lot of games stick to it, but back in the 16-bit days, you had pretty much turn-based and action RPG, since Tales of Phantasia didn't come out here.

 

As for storytelling, for better or for worse RPG storytelling has gotten more visual--hell, so have genres that are typically more action-based. We used to have to wade through a good bit of text that would tell us the story. Now, cinemas have mostly replaced it--fewer words, and more visuals. Showing, instead of telling. I'd be glad to admit that an opening movie can be far more effective in setting up a game's story than an expository crawl, although unless it contains something necessary, I'm going to want to skip both, probably.

 

The problem I have with things becoming too visual is that you're playing a FREAKIN' GAME!! When at all possible, instead of telling or showing, the game should let you PLAY it. If a scenario can be played through, it should be played through. It gives you a better connection with the game and eliminates the dead time that lengthy cinemas lead to. This isn't so much a FFVII probably as it is, say, a problem with the Xeno games, but while I was ranting anyway, I decided to throw it in.

 

A misconception I always see VII haters make is that the big cutscenes in FF VII are loved because of the graphics. If that was the case the game wouldn't have been so huge past 1998. It's not nostaglia either. What makes those CGI scenes so good is the imagry and the direction, not the technical effects. Like take the intro scene. It's not just a CGI view of Midgar. The way it starts off in the stars and goes down to the city, then zooms out to the logo and over the train is just an awesome sight. The graphics are way outdated and borderline ugly now, but it's still impressive and engaging because of the way it's presented.

 

I'm not at all impressed. What's so impressive, artistic, or innovative about that? Please don't tell me that's the best example you can come up with. Sounds extremely bare-bones as far as film-direction goes. Where's the switch in camera focus, form-cuts, subtle visual metaphors, use of light and shadow, use of sound to heighten drama and so on(Seph's theme over and over doesn't count), montages, etc.? Is there any unique technique it pioneered, game-wise or movie-wise?

 

I would also like to present a counter-example: there's Aeris' death scene--one of the funniest things in a video game ever. Her way her body reacts is all wrong, there's no blood and no visible wound even. At least when the 16-bit guys bit the big one you didn't have close ups to accentuate all the graphical flaws.

 

Then she's lain in the water, and sinks like a stone in basically the same position. Uh-huh.

 

I'm not feelin' it.

 

 

A lot of game developers don't get that there's more to doing a cinametic game than just having the best, most detailed graphics. I don't think Square's done a better job of it since VII either.

 

That's a shame...

 

Not my fault your PC is too crappy for emulation.

 

Oh come on, I can easily emulate Space Harrier and Hang On--it's just that the game lacks the pure fun, and emulation just doesn't feel right to me. I prefer a controller in hand and the quick and easy firing up of a game over ROM loading and downloading stuff that Lord knows what you'll get with it.

[Anya 0]

I'm not at all impressed.

Oh well.

 

 

 

I always got the impression that holy was released too late, and the effect of it interacting with meteor would eventually destroy meteor, but it would also destroy the earth.

 

 

Maybe. That does make sense. Whatever the case you can clearly see Meteor push through Holy.

[chaosrage 0]

If Holy had worked why would the Lifestream be needed? It should have stopped the meteor, even if it decided to kill people.

 

The point of the lifestream is that Holy failed...if it had worked there wouldn't be a need for it.

The thing is it did work, it just didn't do what they thought it would do. Instead of going for the meteor, it went for what it thought was the bigger threat, humanity. And the lifestream had to intervene the save the planet from the meteor.

 

And we know Holy didn't just make people disapear. It hits the Highwind and does nothing to them.

 

When was that?

 

The comment adds suspense.

 

It does make a choice though and it decides that meteor is the threat and goes after it.

 

That's not what I said. It didn't make a choice if humans were bad for the planet or not. If you're right, it just goes after the meteor and the game doesn't address again at all. This of course would make all the dialogue with Bugenhagen pretty pointless.

 

The line is important because it establishes why Holy failed(it was too late) and points out that the threat goes beyond Midgar.

 

The reason the threat is going beyond Midgar though was because Holy was helping it out and making the Meteor stronger. The conversation with Bugenhagen proves that the line wasn't a translation error because he told you there's a good chance that it WOULD happen. If any line was a mistake, it would have to be the "It's too late" line.

 

It does do something, it just doesn't work. The point of it is to give the player a clear cut way of stopping Sephiroth for the final part of the game as well as making it more exciting when the lifestream ends up saving the day in the end.

 

Wait. It does do something, but it just doesn't do anything? Holy is completely irrelevant according to you because it doesn't matter. The lifestream would save the planet from the meteor no matter what. The characters could've just stayed home and waited. On the other hand, if Holy did make the people disappear, then you could say they helped saved the planet by getting rid of what was causing the most damage to it.

 

There's no people seen in the quick shot 500 years later because there doesn't have to be, the point is just to be a shot of nature. The children laughing after it tells you people lived on.

 

The ending shows you what the world was like 500 years later. Since there's no people in it but it has other life, it's telling you that Holy took all the people off of it. Obviously real children aren't laughing, because there isn't any there. It's probably coming from the lifestream. The planet is happy because it could return to nature or something.

[AndrewTS 0]

Back on topic: Suh-prise, suh-prise, suh-prise--the finals are two Square games, and Chrono Trigger is losing out to FFVII.

 

Bah, Trigger is better anyway, and it should have been something like a Super Metroid/Mario 3 final.

 

Your GameFAQs Best Game Ever (unofficially): Final Fucking Fantasy VII

[Guest Askewniverse]

Why am I not surprised? I still don't see the big deal about FF VII. Anybody care to explain what's so great about it?

 

I'll admit that I'm not exactly a big RPG fan. In fact, I don't like RPGs at all. However, I've tried both FF VII and Chrono Trigger. I liked Chrono Trigger better.

 

Bah, Trigger is better anyway, and it should have been something like a Super Metroid/Mario 3 final.

I would've settled for a LTTP vs. OOT final. Oh, wait...weren't both of those games eliminated by a Square game?

[AndrewTS 0]

Why am I not surprised?

It's GameFAQs?

 

I still don't see the big deal about FF VII. Anybody care to explain what's so great about it?

 

*shrug*

 

I'll admit that I'm not exactly a big RPG fan. In fact, I don't like RPGs at all. However, I've tried both FF VII and Chrono Trigger. I liked Chrono Trigger better.

 

Ditto about Trigger. Neither deserved "Best Game Ever," of course.

 

Bah, Trigger is better anyway, and it should have been something like a Super Metroid/Mario 3 final.

I would've settled for a LTTP vs. OOT final. Oh, wait...weren't both of those games eliminated by a Square game?

 

Yeah, Trigger eliminated LTTP and FFVII eliminated OOT.

[chaosrage 0]

Back on topic:  Suh-prise, suh-prise, suh-prise--the finals are two Square games, and Chrono Trigger is losing out to FFVII.

 

Bah, Trigger is better anyway, and it should have been something like a Super Metroid/Mario 3 final.

 

Your GameFAQs Best Game Ever (unofficially):  Final Fucking Fantasy VII

 

It sucks though that CT made it to the finals. That makes it look almost as bad as FF7.

[Slayer 0]

I still don't see the big deal about FF VII. Anybody care to explain what's so great about it?

 

*shrug*

Indeed

 

I was fairly intrigued to play through it years ago, without having much of an idea of what was going on besides predictable betrayal and impending doom, and the ending cinema told me "you just wasted the last two weeks on this game"

[Guest Askewniverse]

It sucks though that CT made it to the finals.  That makes it look almost as bad as FF7.

Only at GameFAQs would Chrono Trigger beat Super Mario World, Zelda: LTTP, and Super Mario 3.

[AndrewTS 0]

Well, Super Mario World I don't have a problem with CT beating--SMB3 and Yoshi's Island both absolutely smoke SMW, though.

 

It's really hard to compare it to LTTP. LTTP I haven't actually played all the way through, but it wouldn't even rank as my favorite Zelda game.

[chaosrage 0]

I think CT is easier better than the Marios and slightly better than LTTP.

[Guest Askewniverse]

Maybe it's just nostalgia, but I liked SMW, Mario 3, and LTTP. I might have to check out those games again to see if they hold up.

[AndrewTS 0]

Well, that's all really opinion. Comparing genres like that is really difficult.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really like Super Mario World, but I just never felt it was as good as 3, and Yoshi was a far superior game in every way. The courses were very short and it didn't add too much to the gameplay besides the save option (which is something SMB3 could have used) and Yoshi.

 

SMB3 has deeper gameplay than SMW and was revolutionary, and still holds up well today (not that sales really matter, but SMB3 far outsold SMW between the two GBA revivals). Yoshi's Island is a masterpiece as well, but had the misfortune to be released extremely late in the SNES' life.

[Anya 0]

The thing is it did work, it just didn't do what they thought it would do. Instead of going for the meteor, it went for what it thought was the bigger threat, humanity. And the lifestream had to intervene the save the planet from the meteor.

 

 

How do you figure? What you can see is that it goes straight for Meteor. It shoots out, hitting the Highwind, and immediatly goes for Meteor. Where do you get this theory from aside from "Having the opposite effect" and Bugenhagen's speculation? What is actually shown in the ending doesn't back up what you're saying at all.

 

 

 

When was that?

 

 

Near the beginning, shortly after Cid says "lady lucky don't fail me now". They are stuck in the cave and Holy blows them out of it. You can't miss it.

 

 

 

That's not what I said. It didn't make a choice if humans were bad for the planet or not. If you're right, it just goes after the meteor and the game doesn't address again at all. This of course would make all the dialogue with Bugenhagen pretty pointless.

 

 

The dialogue isn't pointless, it just isn't uber important and set in stone either. It's an offhand remark. It's speculation. It was never meant to be this huge thing. He doesn't know any more than Cait Sith does. He is simply bringing up an interesting point. What if Holy decides we are bad? It's just something to think about. It builds up the theme that perhaps we are the problem. In the end we're not.

 

 

 

The reason the threat is going beyond Midgar though was because Holy was helping it out and making the Meteor stronger. The conversation with Bugenhagen proves that the line wasn't a translation error because he told you there's a good chance that it WOULD happen. If any line was a mistake, it would have to be the "It's too late" line.

 

 

He also says everything that is a threat will disapear, yet humans don't disapear when Holy hits their ship. So he isn't 100% correct any way you look at it.

 

Holy helping Meteor makes no sense. As Red points out, Meteor hitting the planet is a big danger to the planet. Why would Holy do something like that? Are you saying Holy is stupid? That's silly. Why wouldn't it stop meteor then just go around killing humans?

 

 

 

Wait. It does do something, but it just doesn't do anything? Holy is completely irrelevant according to you because it doesn't matter. The lifestream would save the planet from the meteor no matter what. The characters could've just stayed home and waited. On the other hand, if Holy did make the people disappear, then you could say they helped saved the planet by getting rid of what was causing the most damage to it.

 

 

Holy isn't irrelevant, it sets up the end game goal and the big surprise uplifting ending. Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean it's irrelevant. That's like saying the rocket scene is irrelevant because it doesn't work.

 

We don't know if Lifestream would have come had Holy not been summoned. Maybe it took both of them to destroy Meteor.

 

But yeah, the heroes don't really save the world.

 

Aeris summoned Holy anyway, so it's not like Cloud and the others would get credit for that even if it had worked.

 

They beat Seph though, so yay for them.

 

 

 

 

 

The ending shows you what the world was like 500 years later. Since there's no people in it but it has other life, it's telling you that Holy took all the people off of it. Obviously real children aren't laughing, because there isn't any there. It's probably coming from the lifestream. The planet is happy because it could return to nature or something.

 

 

All you see is the canyon and Midgar! No people doesn't = they don't exist anymore. You don't see bunnies either, but that doesn't mean Holy killed the bunnies.

[Slayer 0]

You don't see bunnies either, but that doesn't mean Holy killed the bunnies.

Sephiroth killed the bunnies because he's evil

[{''({o..o})''} 0]

And I brought them back.

[Anya 0]

Well bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes. They've got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses. And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?

[Slayer 0]

Word on the street is that bunnies like to fuck

[Vyce 0]

I liked it. And I don't care who didn't like it. Just because a bunch of other people think it's overrated I'm suddenly supposed to quit liking it and think so to? HA!

This is way back from page 1, but it sums up my feelings on FF7 110%.

[chaosrage 0]

How do you figure? What you can see is that it goes straight for Meteor. It shoots out, hitting the Highwind, and immediatly goes for Meteor. Where do you get this theory from aside from "Having the opposite effect" and Bugenhagen's speculation? What is actually shown in the ending doesn't back up what you're saying at all.

What else do you need? The only way they could make it more obvious would be if they put in the ending after the 500 years later scene "THE PEOPLE DIDN'T SURVIVE!!"

 

And the "having the opposite effect" line almost did just that. It didn't need to be in the game. All you really had to know is what Bugenhagen said might happen, and that Holy failed to destroy the meteor, and the results 500 years later. Then take the fact that the people were draining the planet for Mako energy making it weak and because of them the planet was suffering and dying. Then know Holy takes out threats to the planet to put two and two together. If after all of that you still didn't get it, it comes right out and tells you it had the opposite effect.

 

What is actually shown in the ending doesn't back up what you're saying at all.

 

Right.. the ending with no people doesn't back up what I'm saying about there being no people... at alllll...

 

Near the beginning, shortly after Cid says "lady lucky don't fail me now". They are stuck in the cave and Holy blows them out of it. You can't miss it.

 

Holy was just coming out of the ground, it wasn't actually doing anything yet.

 

How was it too late? You could see it made it there in time. Meteor either just pushed through or was let through.

 

The dialogue isn't pointless, it just isn't uber important and set in stone either. It's an offhand remark. It's speculation. It was never meant to be this huge thing. He doesn't know any more than Cait Sith does. He is simply bringing up an interesting point. What if Holy decides we are bad? It's just something to think about. It builds up the theme that perhaps we are the problem. In the end we're not.

 

Back it up. Nowhere in the game does it say anything to lead you to believe that we aren't a problem. If that's what you got out of it, I think you missed the entire point of the game. I'm surprised you like it so much.

 

Even if you assume for some reason that it WAS trying to destroy meteor, despite what the game says, where in the world would you pull we aren't a problem from?

 

Cait Sith COULD have been the one to say it. It doesn't matter who said it. The only thing that matters is the game opened up the possibility that it could happen.

 

He also says everything that is a threat will disapear, yet humans don't disapear when Holy hits their ship. So he isn't 100% correct any way you look at it.

 

If it hit the ship and didn't make them disappear, but did make them disappear after the lifestream took care of Holy, then he would still be correct, wouldn't he?

 

Holy helping Meteor makes no sense. As Red points out, Meteor hitting the planet is a big danger to the planet. Why would Holy do something like that? Are you saying Holy is stupid? That's silly. Why wouldn't it stop meteor then just go around killing humans?

 

Because humanity is a bigger danger to the planet. The meteor would just "wound" it, the humans were killing it. The meteor is only an issue in the second half of the game. The planet dying because of people taking all the Mako energy is an issue right from the first couple of lines. Holy isn't smart or stupid, it's just a thing that destroys threats, so it makes sense that it automatically goes for what it perceives to be the biggest one.

 

Holy isn't irrelevant, it sets up the end game goal and the big surprise uplifting ending. Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean it's irrelevant. That's like saying the rocket scene is irrelevant because it doesn't work.

 

Well the rocket scene IS irrelevant but not because it doesn't work. The characters weren't trying to get it to work, all they wanted to do was save was the Huge Materia. God knows why. What the hell was that all about?

 

We don't know if Lifestream would have come had Holy not been summoned. Maybe it took both of them to destroy Meteor.

 

Maybe, but since the game doesn't say it did anything besides not working, you're only assuming it had a point. The game doesn't say it did anything.

 

But yeah, the heroes don't really save the world.

 

Aeris summoned Holy anyway, so it's not like Cloud and the others would get credit for that even if it had worked.

 

They beat Seph though, so yay for them.

 

And that's a good thing? They needed to kill Seph for Holy to work, so if I'm right, they helped out at least.

 

All you see is the canyon and Midgar! No people doesn't = they don't exist anymore. You don't see bunnies either, but that doesn't mean Holy killed the bunnies.

 

If the bunnies were integral to the story, and the ending scene didn't show any bunnies, along with having someone saying the bunnies might be killed, and constantly throughout the game you're being told that the earth was dying because of the stupid bunnies, of course you should assume Holy killed them.

 

And I have to know, just what do you think happened to Midgar if Holy didn't destroy the people? Remember, the meteor doesn't hit. There's no impact crater. Just plants and trees. Life flourishing without civilization. Did they all just leave?

[AndrewTS 0]

I liked it. And I don't care who didn't like it. Just because a bunch of other people think it's overrated I'm suddenly supposed to quit liking it and think so to? HA!

This is way back from page 1, but it sums up my feelings on FF7 110%.

Said by a guy who has had Seph in his avatar/sig and agreed with by a guy who uses the phrase "110%."

 

Dama makes a valid argument, but he completely ignores the extent to which it is overrated.

 

No one is saying Final Fantasy VII is the worst game ever. The point is it shouldn't even be mentioned in the same breath as "best game ever." It's too painfully average and doesn't even deserve consideration as best RPG ever. That's the whole point, you know?

[Anya 0]

I mean what is shown in the pre-credits ending, the Holy vs. Meteor showdown. It doesn't look like it's helping to destroy Midgar at all. It looks like it's trying to stop it.

 

 

There's plenty of things to show that humans are not the problem. The whole group you're in is fighting for the planet. There's also the villages, like cosmo canyon, wihch don't use mako. Humans are the ones trying to get Holy to work! If it wasn't for humans Sephiroth would win. A lot of humans are bad and humanity's way of life needs to change, but the game shows there's still some people who understand that and are willing to fight for change. The idea that the moral of the story is that people are bad and in the end everyone dies is bogus. That is a horrible ending that doesn't fit the build up. Barrett went into the cave to fight for the future of his daughter. What kind of an ending is it where she dies to get across the message that people are bad?

 

 

You ask what the point of the lifestream at the end is? The theme of the game isn't that everybody is evil and deserves to die. The theme of the game, according to Sakaguchi himself, is life. In the end it's not Holy, or Meteor, or any other magic that's the ultimate power. It's life itself. The lifestream is what saves the day.

 

What do YOU think it did? It obviously had a point. It covering the planet is the final image before the credits. You can't seriously suggest it was just there for a lightshow. What do you think the lifestream did at the end?

 

 

As for the bunnies...it's more like this.

 

A lot of bunnies are bad, but a group of bunnies fight for the future of the planet. The bunnies summon Holy. An old hare tells the other bunnies that Holy may kill bunnies. In the end Holy tries to stop Meteor, but fails. Then the life force of dead bunnies comes and destroys the meteor. 500 years later you see the planet is all green and nice and stuff, but you don't see any bunnies. But then it goes black and you hear bunnies laughing...or....whatever sound bunnies make. Yay! Bunnies live! Enter the sequel, Advent Rabbits.

 

 

The rocket scene isn't irrelevant. It basically ties up Cid's entire arc.

 

 

 

Midgar was nearly destroyed, so yeah, people left. Not only is this what I personally think, it's what Square has apparently gone with in AC.

[AndrewTS 0]

"Enter the sequel, Advent Rabbits."

 

Advent Kits. Young bunnies are called kits.

 

This is also the only part that actually matters. If Square intended for humanity to be destroyed at the end of the game, it is irrelevant because they made a sequel anyway. It isn't unheard of for a game company to change continuity or even change their mind about a game ending.

 

It may have just meant that civilization and technology was wiped out and returned humans to the state of nature. Obviously the philosophies of Thomas Hobbes aren't popular with the Square programmers, so it would be a happy ending for them.

 

Of course, that would be quite ironic for video game programmers to hold those ideals, but whatever.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

The children laughing after it tells you people lived on.

 

AndrewTS sums up my thoughts about the ending pretty well, but I thought I would just point out this. It is quite clear that the laughter is from Red XIII's kids that you see in the ending, looking out at Midgar.

[Black Lushus 0]

hmmm, I thought life was pretty much destroyed on the planet as well? i got that from seeing the buildings covered with moss and plant life, no signs of humans anywhere...i would imagine in 500 years they would have torn down all thos plant covered structures by now or at least restored it like the buildings of rome and greece...

 

and no this isn't the greatest game ever...Super Metroid blows this one out of the water...

[AndrewTS 0]

"It is quite clear that the laughter is from Red XIII's kids that you see in the ending, looking out at Midgar."

 

Lion-like creatures make human-sounding laughs? I don't know about that. An adult's would be a lot deeper I'd imagine, while the younger ones would probably be a lot more squeaky. Of course, without human-like jaws, tongues, and lips, I doubt they could replicate human speech at all, so maybe I'm putting too much faith in Square.

 

It did cross my mind that maybe Red's descendants would inherit the earth, but the first Advent Children news kind of obliterated that theory, as far as I was concerned. Nothing says that they can't still be prominent, though.