Sad News

[Guest MikeSC]

I'd have moved JFK down further if I felt I could have.  The problem is that most liberals think JFK stands for Jesus Fucking Khrist... John F. Kerry included.

Even worse. He was a proponent of Reaganomics.

On top of that, who else could I really have moved in front of him besides Truman? 

Truman DEFINITELY. Ike, too.

I refuse to put Wilson above him if only because the year 1918 was such a clusterfuck due to his singleminded idealism.  (Idealism, while well-meaning, often fails because it is impractical in the REAL world) 

He also un-did the few advances blacks made in the government. He also should have had the decency to turn over power following his stroke in 1918.

I'd have put Nixon higher except that Watergate overshadows all the good that he did.  Taft would be a hard sell, too, because he's such an overlooked president.

I'd put Nixon low. He did a ton of bad stuff besides Watergate. Wage and price controls were his babies, too.

 

As for Taft --- the man broke up Standard Oil --- but he was killed by his desire to be a Supreme Court Justice, not President.

As for the top three, it's hard to really pick one. 

 

FDR gets the nod because he put into effect major institutions that are still used today, such as Social Security, in addition to winning a war that looked unwinnable at the time.  (I'm a student of World War II history and have been instructed by lecturers from Britain's Sandhurst Military Academy, as well as doing research on it at the British National Archives, so I'd say I have a decent grasp of the war.)

I'm not a huge fan of FDR and, in my eyes, he and Reagan are easily interchangeable as 1 and 2. They both fought massive menaces to humanity and won.

Reagan ending the Cold War and putting the economy into overdrive put him ahead of TR.  TR is a great president but was not a tested war-time president like FDR or Reagan.   

Teddy, to me, seems more of a hype creation than anything else. He hyped himself better than almost any President in history.

Frankly, this is one of those topics that NO ONE will fully agree on, but outside of the top three choices no one seems to have any objections to these rankings.  I'm a little surprised that no one wanted me to put LBJ higher, though.

LBJ's been pretty badly repudiated. His Great Society tanked. He did get us neck deep into Vietnam.

-=Mike

[Highland 0]

JFK is definately overrated, his assassination made the legend greater than the reality.

[Guest thebigjig]

JFK... only had two years

 

and he still helped save the world, which is a major reason he is as revered as he is

 

Reagan... was not a war time president. The Cold War was NOT a real war and if you're going to say he was a war time president then you have to assume every president since the beginning of the Cold War was a technical Wartime president

 

Theodore Roosevelt was not just hype... he was an amazing, fair and generally uncorrupt politician at a time when political corruption made the corruption of today look like childs play

[teke184 0]

JFK is definately overrated, his assassination made the legend greater than the reality.

As I said, though, it's hard to rate him under some people. He's just above the no-names that hardly anyone remembers (Coolidge, Taft) and the memorable people with serious flaws (Wilson, Nixon).

 

Outside of Truman, I couldn't really put anyone else over him in good conscience without a REALLY good explanation.

[Guest thebigjig]

JFK... only had two years

 

and he still helped save the world, which is a major reason he is as revered as he is

 

Reagan... was not a war time president. The Cold War was NOT a real war and if you're going to say he was a war time president then you have to assume every president since the beginning of the Cold War was a technical Wartime president

 

Theodore Roosevelt was not just hype... he was an amazing, fair and generally uncorrupt politician at a time when political corruption made the corruption of today look like childs play

[Lil' Bitch 0]

Carter was the worst, and possibly the worst in US history.

 

I would put Harrison before him. After all, before he had been in office a month, he died.

[teke184 0]

Carter was the worst, and possibly the worst in US history.

 

I would put Harrison before him. After all, before he had been in office a month, he died.

Carter wasn't the worst... he was just inept instead of corrupt.

 

Harding's administration defines corrupt.

 

Ford's administration was a lame-duck for two years before losing to an unknown peanut farmer from the Deep South, back before people realized that the South HAD emerged from the Civil War. (Billy Carter certainly didn't help his brother's image...)

[teke184 0]

On top of that, who else could I really have moved in front of him besides Truman? 

Truman DEFINITELY. Ike, too.

I had Ike as #4 and JFK as #5 already.

[pappajacks 0]

Killer, Coward, Conman - Good Riddance, Ronnie Reagan

By Greg Palast

June 6, 2004

 

 

 

June 6, 2004 -- You're not going to like this. You shouldn't speak ill of the dead. But in this case, someone's got to.

 

 

 

Ronald Reagan was a conman. Reagan was a coward. Reagan was a killer.

 

 

 

In 1987, I found myself stuck in a crappy little town in Nicaragua named Chaguitillo. The people were kind enough, though hungry, except for one surly young man. His wife had just died of tuberculosis.

 

 

 

People don't die of TB if they get some antibiotics. But Ronald Reagan, big hearted guy that he was, had put a lock-down embargo on medicine to Nicaragua because he didn't like the government that the people there had elected.

 

 

 

Ronnie grinned and cracked jokes while the young woman's lungs filled up and she stopped breathing. Reagan flashed that B-movie grin while they buried the mother of three.

 

 

 

And when Hezbollah terrorists struck and murdered hundreds of American marines in their sleep in Lebanon, the TV warrior ran away like a whipped dog ... then turned around and invaded Grenada. That little Club Med war was a murderous PR stunt so Ronnie could hold parades for gunning down Cubans building an airport.

 

 

 

I remember Nancy, a skull and crossbones prancing around in designer dresses, some of the "gifts" that flowed to the Reagans -- from hats to million-dollar homes -- from cronies well compensated with government loot. It used to be called bribery.

 

 

 

And all the while, Grandpa grinned, the grandfather who bleated on about "family values" but didn't bother to see his own grandchildren.

 

 

 

The New York Times today, in its canned obit, wrote that Reagan projected, "faith in small town America" and "old-time values." "Values" my ass. It was union busting and a declaration of war on the poor and anyone who couldn't buy designer dresses. It was the New Meanness, bringing starvation back to America so that every millionaire could get another million.

 

 

 

"Small town" values? From the movie star of the Pacific Palisades, the Malibu mogul? I want to throw up.

 

 

 

And all the while, in the White House basement, as his brain boiled away, his last conscious act was to condone a coup d'etat against our elected Congress. Reagan's Defense Secretary Casper the Ghost Weinberger with the crazed Colonel, Ollie North, plotted to give guns to the Monster of the Mideast, Ayatolla Khomeini.

 

 

 

Reagan's boys called Jimmy Carter a weanie and a wuss although Carter wouldn't give an inch to the Ayatolla. Reagan, with that film-fantasy tough-guy con in front of cameras, went begging like a coward cockroach to Khomeini pleading on bended knee for the release of our hostages.

 

 

 

Ollie North flew into Iran with a birthday cake for the maniac mullah -- no kidding --in the shape of a key. The key to Ronnie's heart.

 

 

 

Then the Reagan roaches mixed their cowardice with crime: taking cash from the hostage-takers to buy guns for the "contras" - the drug-runners of Nicaragua posing as freedom fighters.

 

 

 

I remember as a student in Berkeley the words screeching out of the bullhorn, "The Governor of the State of California, Ronald Reagan, hereby orders this demonstration to disburse" ... and then came the teargas and the truncheons. And all the while, that fang-hiding grin from the Gipper.

 

 

 

In Chaguitillo, all night long, the farmers stayed awake to guard their kids from attack from Reagan's Contra terrorists. The farmers weren't even Sandinistas, those 'Commies' that our cracked-brained President told us were 'only a 48-hour drive from Texas.' What the hell would they want with Texas, anyway?

 

 

 

Nevertheless, the farmers, and their families, were Ronnie's targets.

 

 

 

In the deserted darkness of Chaguitillo, a TV blared. Weirdly, it was that third-rate gangster movie, "Brother Rat." Starring Ronald Reagan.

 

 

 

Well, my friends, you can rest easier tonight: the Rat is dead.

 

 

 

Killer, coward, conman. Ronald Reagan, good-bye and good riddance.

 

 

 

Greg Palast is author of the New York Times bestseller, The Best Democracy Money Can Buy.

[Guest MikeSC]

On top of that, who else could I really have moved in front of him besides Truman? 

Truman DEFINITELY. Ike, too.

I had Ike as #4 and JFK as #5 already.

My bad.

 

And I hope Palast has a nice, long life to remember how he pissed all over a great man. And, as has been stated about others, I wonder how many people will mourn his passing when it finally comes.

-=Mike

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Carter was the worst, and possibly the worst in US history.

 

I would put Harrison before him. After all, before he had been in office a month, he died.

Harrison wasn't around long enough to do any damage. Harding is a better argument, or Grant who also had a regime of massive corruption.

[Guest whatitistoburn]

So... how would you guys compare regean to the best presidents of all time.?

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I really don't try to compare POTUSs because, like sports, many pols were in office during different eras of our country.

 

The only presidents I have been able to vote for were Clinton or Bush, so my personal observations of commander in chiefs are rather limited. I was 4-12 years old when Reagan was in office, and I didn't follow politics in high school, hence my memories of Bush I are limited in scope...

[Guest thebigjig]

So... how would you guys compare regean to the best presidents of all time.?

I'm not a presidential scholar and in reality, it's a MAJOR task to place him on a list with so many great leaders... so I'm not going to even attempt to go there. But as for the greatest presidents of the 20th century, I'd place him at # 5

[cynicalprofit 0]

Of course my question is; Does he even know he's dead?

Well let's see. pappajacks just used his lack of historical knowledge to try and discredit the man's presidency. cynicalprofit chimes in with the Alzheimer's joke that nobody really thinks is funny. The only thing that this Dumbshit Holiday that is the "Sad News" thread needs now is SKBF's opinion. "In the 80s, we were the REAL Evil Empire, not the Soviets. Reagan should've employed an army of food men."

Hey I thought it funny. Quiety frankly, I don't give a shit that he's dead. It wasn't like he was doing anything really in the last few years of his life. Its not a suprise he died, it happened. Now lets all move the fuck on.

Well, unlike you, he accomplished things.

-=Mike

True he did, but I didn't make mistakes on his level either. Don't see my name attachted to anything involving war.

[Guest MikeSC]

Of course my question is; Does he even know he's dead?

Well let's see. pappajacks just used his lack of historical knowledge to try and discredit the man's presidency. cynicalprofit chimes in with the Alzheimer's joke that nobody really thinks is funny. The only thing that this Dumbshit Holiday that is the "Sad News" thread needs now is SKBF's opinion. "In the 80s, we were the REAL Evil Empire, not the Soviets. Reagan should've employed an army of food men."

Hey I thought it funny. Quiety frankly, I don't give a shit that he's dead. It wasn't like he was doing anything really in the last few years of his life. Its not a suprise he died, it happened. Now lets all move the fuck on.

Well, unlike you, he accomplished things.

-=Mike

True he did, but I didn't make mistakes on his level either. Don't see my name attachted to anything involving war.

Don't see your name attached to much of anything...

-=Mike

[Guest BobbyWhioux]

Of course my question is; Does he even know he's dead?

Well let's see. pappajacks just used his lack of historical knowledge to try and discredit the man's presidency. cynicalprofit chimes in with the Alzheimer's joke that nobody really thinks is funny. The only thing that this Dumbshit Holiday that is the "Sad News" thread needs now is SKBF's opinion. "In the 80s, we were the REAL Evil Empire, not the Soviets. Reagan should've employed an army of food men."

Hey I thought it funny. Quiety frankly, I don't give a shit that he's dead. It wasn't like he was doing anything really in the last few years of his life. Its not a suprise he died, it happened. Now lets all move the fuck on.

Well, unlike you, he accomplished things.

-=Mike

True he did, but I didn't make mistakes on his level either. Don't see my name attachted to anything involving war.

Don't see your name attached to much of anything...

-=Mike

Yeah. Not attached to nearly as much stuff as yours is.

 

 

As for the bad presidents discussion, Andrew Johnson might be the most dangerously incompetent president in the history of the office (there's one other solid contender, though... *wink*). Don't leave him out of the discussion, either.

 

Best presidents? Hmm. Well, for efficiency and success % on legislation proposed, Polk is number 1. Worked his ass off, passed everything he wanted, got all his goals accomplished (including doubling the size of the U.S. the old fashioned way -- jacking another country for their land), got it all done in four years, and split. People tend to forget about him because A) only served one term and B) didn't face an "epic crisis" which plays against our biases. [i mean, look at our usual suspects: wartime guys during "big wars" and multiple term guys.]

 

Reagan? Eh, I dunno. Well, he's not the worst president I've lived through. Not anymore.

[teke184 0]

The problem is that most presidents fall into a few ranges, with the vast majority being caretaker presidents between Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln then between Lincoln and Teddy Roosevelt.

 

 

"We are the mediocre presidents / you won't find our faces on dollars or on cents

there's Taylor, there's Tyler, there's Filmore and there's Hayes / there's William Henry Harrison "I died in 30 days!"

 

 

 

Memorable good presidents (numbers represent the line of succession, NOT their overall rank)-

 

1. George Washington

3. Thomas Jefferson

5. James Monroe (Monroe Doctrine)

7. Andrew Jackson (People will certainly debate this one)

11. James Polk (Mexican-American War)

16. Abraham Lincoln

26. Teddy Roosevelt

32. Franklin D. Roosevelt

33. Harry S Truman

34. Dwight D. Eisenhower

35. John F. Kennedy (This is pushing it IMHO)

40. Ronald Reagan

 

 

 

 

The rest of the presidents, by far, were ineffective at best and downright corrupt at worst.

 

The worst of the worst would have to be US Grant, Rutheford B. Hayes, and Warren G. Harding due to their incredibly corrupt administrations. Hell, Hayes only won election in 1876 because of massive electoral fraud on both sides of the fence lead to the compromise of Hayes becoming president in exchange for Reconstruction ending in the South.

[Guest jpclemmons]

Reaganomics was basically the reason my family and I were living in poverty, and I disliked many of his policies. But he was the man that ended the cold war, and was a charismatic fellow. RIP

[The Robfather 0]

Reagan Revisionism

By Charles Krauthammer

Friday, June 11, 2004; Page A25

 

The second-greatest president of the 20th century dies (with Theodore Roosevelt coming a close third), and the liberal establishment that alternately ridiculed and demonized Ronald Reagan throughout his presidency is in a quandary. How to remember a man they anathematized for eight years but who enjoys both the overwhelming affection of the American people and decisive vindication by history?

 

They found their way to do it. They dwell endlessly on the man's smile, his sunny personality, his good manners. Above all, his optimism.

 

"Optimism" is the perfect way to trivialize everything that Reagan was or did. Pangloss was an optimist. Harold Stassen was an optimist. Ralph Kramden was an optimist. Optimism is nice, but it gets you nowhere unless you also possess ideological vision, policy and prescriptions to make it real, and, finally, the political courage to act on your convictions.

 

Optimism? Every other person on the No. 6 bus is an optimist. What distinguished Reagan was what he did and said. Reagan was optimistic about America amid the cynicism and general retreat of the post-Vietnam era because he believed unfashionably that America was both great and good -- and had been needlessly diminished by restrictive economic policies and timid foreign policies. Change the policies and America would be restored, both at home and abroad.

 

He was right.

 

Moreover, at the time, Reagan's optimism was deemed pejorative. It was the cockeyed optimism of the simpleton, a man too shallow, unsophisticated, unschooled and unthinking -- in short, too stupid -- to know better. An "amiable dunce," as Clark Clifford, wisest of the Washington wise men, dubbed him. Justin Kaplan's 1992 edition of Bartlett's has only three quotes from Reagan -- all trivial, all designed to make him look silly. It was only under pressure that the next edition added "Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall" and other historic lines.

 

Clifford and Kaplan spoke for an establishment that considered Reagan a simplistic primitive -- whose simplistic primitivism was endangering the world. These were the twin themes: Reagan was stupid, and his stupidity made him dangerous. Those too young to remember the 1980s would be astonished to know how common the notion was of Reagan as a warmonger.

 

In the early '80s, the West experienced a nuclear hysteria -- a sudden panic about imminent nuclear destruction and a mindless demand to "freeze" nuclear weapons. What had changed to bring this on? Reagan had become president. Like George W. Bush today, the U.S. president was seen as a greater threat to peace than was the enemy he was confronting.

 

The nuclear freeze and the accompanying hysteria are an embarrassment that liberals prefer to forget today. Reagan's critics completely misunderstood the logic and the power of his nuclear posture. He took a very hard line on the Soviets, who had broken the nuclear status quo by placing missiles in Europe. Backed by Margaret Thatcher and Helmut Kohl, Reagan faced the Soviets down -- despite enormous "peace" demonstrations throughout the West, including the largest one to date in U.S. history (New York City, 1982) -- and ultimately forced the Soviets to dismantle the missiles and begin their overall retreat.

 

Rarely has a president been so quickly and completely vindicated by history. The Berlin Wall came down 10 months after Reagan left office. His policies of unrelenting toughness won the Cold War and brought a new peace. That is because Reagan understood that the key to peace was never arms control. Security had nothing to do with the number of weapons; it had everything to do with the intention and power of those who possessed them.

 

Accordingly, Reagan put relentless pressure on the possessors of that power, the Soviet commissars, through his nuclear hard line, military buildup, Strategic Defense Initiative and the Reagan Doctrine of supporting anti-communist guerrillas everywhere (especially Nicaragua). Ultimately, that pressure brought about the collapse of the overextended Soviet empire. The result was the most profound peace the world had experienced in 60 years -- since the very beginning of the totalitarian era in the early 1930s.

 

This success is an understandable embarrassment to the critics who opposed his every policy. They supported the freeze, denounced the military buildup, ridiculed strategic defenses, opposed aid to the Nicaraguan anti-communists and derided Reagan for telling the truth about the Soviet empire.

 

So now they praise his sunny smile. Normally, people speak well of the recently deceased to honor the dictum of being kind to the dead. When Reagan's opponents speak well of him now, however, they are trying to be kind to themselves.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I'm assuming FDR ranks first.

 

Since Presidents are being discussed. Figured I'd toss out some Presidential tidbits.

 

Only 13 of the 43 men who served has President, where elected and served the full length of their two terms. Two of those men FDR (4 terms), and Cleveland (non-consecutive) did not serve just two consecutive terms. Two others Lincoln and Nixon won reelection, but did not finish their 2nd term.

 

Another thing of interest. The only time in our nation's history. That we saw two full 2 term 8 year presidencies was Madison and Monroe. Include Jefferson and it's 3 consecutive Presidents.

 

A pretty remarkable number that only 15 men have been elected too a 2nd term. Others for various reasons choose not too (Polk) or were assasinated (JFK) would of won reelection. Add those select few and the total number is 19 (Polk, Roosevelt, Coolige, and JFK).

[Jobber of the Week 0]

I think the amusing thing is that how the two-term limit came as a result of Republicans being concerned about FDR's break of tradition, but since then, the only Presidents I could realistically see being elected for a third term are Republicans.

[BUTT 0]

I think the amusing thing is that how the two-term limit came as a result of Republicans being concerned about FDR's break of tradition, but since then, the only Presidents I could realistically see being elected for a third term are Republicans.

I don't know about that. I think Clinton could have easily defeated Bush in 2000.

[Guest MikeSC]

Reaganomics was basically the reason my family and I were living in poverty, and I disliked many of his policies. But he was the man that ended the cold war, and was a charismatic fellow. RIP

I suppose I'll regret asking this --- but how did tax cuts cause your family to live in poverty?

The worst of the worst would have to be US Grant, Rutheford B. Hayes, and Warren G. Harding due to their incredibly corrupt administrations. Hell, Hayes only won election in 1876 because of massive electoral fraud on both sides of the fence lead to the compromise of Hayes becoming president in exchange for Reconstruction ending in the South.

You know what's biazarre though?

 

As corrupt as his administration was, Grant was PERSONALLY almost as honest a man as we've had in the White House. Grant himself was almost 100% honest.

 

His subordinates screwed him over royally, though.

-=Mike

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Reaganomics was basically the reason my family and I were living in poverty, and I disliked many of his policies. But he was the man  that ended the cold war, and was a charismatic fellow. RIP

I suppose I'll regret asking this --- but how did tax cuts cause your family to live in poverty?

I am curious about this myself. Perhaps his family worked for the White House and got canned by the administration, ala Billy Dale...