Official "I saw Fahrenheit 9/11" thread......

[Guest MikeSC]

Bush's actions have been dictated by a closeness to the bin Laden clan. The bin Laden clan disowned Osama years ago. And Moore is as tied to the bin Ladens (through the Carlyle group) as Bush.

 

There was some footage of Osama at a family gathering within the last few years in F911.

I suppose you have a link that states this, as nothing I've ever seen approaches this.

Moore also has some of his big "Gotcha!" moments being questioned like the bin Laden family being allowed to leave soon after 9/11 without being questioned when they might have.

It's not a "Gotcha" moment being questioned. It's him getting caught in a total lie.

The oil pipeline bit was reaching and as Newsweek pointed out, that project was something that was about to go down during Clinton's terms.

It's also irrelevant since Gov. Bush supported the Enron plan which didn't involve Afghanistan whatsoever.

If I remember correctly, it wasn't just the Bin Laden family that Moore was talking about, rather approx 140 Saudi royal members and family members. And there is conflicting reports as to whether they had clearance and how exactly they were cleared.

"Conflicting reports" consists of Michael Moore v the FBI. I don't really put a lot of stock in the "conflict".

It's not like Blair Witch at all. The man is stating facts, albeit with a slant, but they are facts nontheless.

The oil pipeline is false.

All of his assertions about the 2000 election are false.

His assertion that Saudi royals were allowed to leave without FBI interviews is false.

His attempts to tie Bush to the bin Ladens through Carlyle is laughable (you know who has a MUCH larger stake than EITHER Bush or the bin Ladens in Carlyle? George Soros).

Just because he has an opinion on said facts, doesn't make them not facts. I can't explain it any clearer.

His "facts" are as true as O'Reilly's.

"The author of the piece, reporter Philip Shenon (who has covered the federal 9/11 commission for the past year) predicts that Moore “may face an onslaught of fact-checking” unlike any a documentary film-maker has faced before. Shenon’s verdict: “It seems safe to say that central assertions of fact in ‘Fahrenherit 9/11’ are supported by the public record….” "

Not ONE of his "documentaries" has EVER stood up to fact-checking. Not a single one.

 

Yes, that includes "Roger & Me"

"Shenon says Moore “is on firm ground” in arguing that the Bushes have profited handsomely from their relationships with the Saudis, including the bin Laden family and the Saudi rulers.

Except he, well, ISN'T on firm ground with this. I love that a reporter covering the 9/11 Commission for a major paper is so blindly partisan.

He also notes that Moore is safe in charging that Bush paid too little attention to terrorism before 9/11

Also untrue.

and suggests he is accurate when he claims that during Bush’s first eight months in office he spent 42% of his time on vacation (the source being The Washington Post. "

And fails to note the lack of any sort of relevancy to that.

They bit on it, as in Moores mind James Bath is the glue that holds together his claim about the Bush/Bin Ladens connection.

Except it DOESN'T hold together terribly well.

don't see why conservatives get all tied in a knot over this movie. It is simply a counter-point to the Rush, Hannity, Fox News type material

The same "material" the left has bitched about how being so unfair?

 

And, just in case you missed it, Rush, Hannity, and Fox News don't get a fraction of the attention the attention whore Moore does.

While families are suffering, Bush is busy scratching the backs of those who scratched his.

Wow, showing a lack of knowledge in both the CE folder AND here? You are impressive.

-=Mike

[Hektik 0]

I thought the point of this film -much like the point of every Moore film- is class war.  Where the "Have Mores", as Bush calls them, are profiting off White House Initiatives -particularly the War in Iraq- and the people doing the dirty work are the soldiers - much of whom are victims of White House initiatives (which is to say, lower class, and the only work they can find is being a soldier).  While families are suffering, Bush is busy scratching the backs of those who scratched his.

This whole presidential election with Bush vs Kerry is class warfare.

 

Yale Class of 66' vs Yale Class of 68'

(Bill Maher joke)

 

I liked this movie, very entertaining. My favorite parts are Bush looking like a jackass with his facial expressions and his "fool me once" line. For someone like me who hates Bush, it was worth the price of admission itself. Some of his theories are a stretch but thats Michael Moore. Overall, it was a very entertaining movie.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

so Mike, how was the movie?

[Guest MikeSC]

so Mike, how was the movie?

Camcorder version of a bad movie.

-=Mike

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

"There's a famous saying that says, fool me once, shame on...ummm....y...m...uhhh....YOU CANNOT FOOL ME!"

 

The brilliance of George Dubya Bush.

[Guest MikeSC]

"There's a famous saying that says, fool me once, shame on...ummm....y...m...uhhh....YOU CANNOT FOOL ME!"

 

The brilliance of George Dubya Bush.

When you have no ACTUAL point to make, you resort to pure, unmitigated bullshit.

 

Kudos.

-=Mike

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

Mike I don't think "unmitigated bullshit" fits here as he wasn't claiming it as completely true or that it had any relevance other than being funny, and it certainly wasn't so far off from the original quote that it can be considered distorted with purpose..

 

You seem a little trigger happy......

[Guest MikeSC]

Mike I don't think "unmitigated bullshit" fits here as he wasn't claiming it as completely true or that it had any relevance other than being funny, and it certainly wasn't so far off from the original quote that it can be considered distorted with purpose..

 

You seem a little trigger happy......

It's the same irrelevant bullshit that overpopulates this fucking board.

-=Mike

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

It's about as irrelevant as you yelling at him like he just interrupted the best debate this board had ever seen, when he was simply talking about something he found humorous.

 

I think your hurting your own cause by being so quick to go after anything that's even SEEMINGLY anti-bush.

[Guest MikeSC]

It's about as irrelevant as you yelling at him like he just interrupted the best debate this board had ever seen, when he was simply talking about something he found humorous.

 

I think your hurting your own cause by being so quick to go after anything that's even SEEMINGLY anti-bush.

How does life feel while riding Moore's crotch?

-=Mike

[Guest Nelly's Bandaid]

Wouldn't know, don't like the guy and disagree completely with his tactics.

 

Feel free to try again.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Wow, showing a lack of knowledge in both the CE folder AND here? You are impressive.

-=Mike

 

Wow, taking things completely out of context to spin them for your own objectives in both the CE folder AND here? You are a fucking imp.

 

I thought the point of this film -much like the point of every Moore film- is class war.

 

CONTEXT Mike, say it with me... "I thought the point of this film..." Did Moore NOT display Bush favouring companies and groups which aided him in the past? Was this not in the film? THIS FILM. CONTEXT. Not what you believe happened in "real life" and not what "really happened", but in THIS FILM. What Moore was saying. What he wanted to get across. What THIS FILM was about. The point. CONTEXT.

[Guest MikeSC]

Wow, showing a lack of knowledge in both the CE folder AND here? You are impressive.

-=Mike

 

Wow, taking things completely out of context to spin them for your own objectives in both the CE folder AND here? You are a fucking imp.

 

I thought the point of this film -much like the point of every Moore film- is class war.

 

CONTEXT Mike, say it with me... "I thought the point of this film..." Did Moore NOT display Bush favouring companies and groups which aided him in the past? Was this not in the film? THIS FILM. CONTEXT. Not what you believe happened in "real life" and not what "really happened", but in THIS FILM. What Moore was saying. What he wanted to get across. What THIS FILM was about. The point. CONTEXT.

When a film is SUPPOSED to be a documentary, it being FACTUAL and not MISLEADING is KEY.

 

This is why "Roger & ME" got "screwed" out of a Best Documentary years ago.

-=Mike

[NoCalMike 0]

Aren't the so-called "fact-checking" people though pretty bias in there own right, and who is checking up on their fact checking, or is the "fact-checkers" word just taken as instant truth because it coincides with some people's hatred for Moore? I will admit that Moore's tactics can sometimes come across as cheapshots, and he does some fancy editing to help his arguments however why should a "fact-checkers" statements go any more unchecked then of those he is checking of.(huh?)

 

I will stick with my original point that I think this movie's main statement/purpose was to show that Bush and his administration had plans to go to war with Iraq pre-9/11 and 9/11 was just the event they needed to conjure up enough fear in the american public to set the wheels in motion. And I think the movie did a decent job of that.

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

How does life feel while riding Moore's crotch?

 

You mean you can ride Moore's crotch just by objecting to you snapping on soembody who just mentioned a quote

 

Okay MikeSC McCarthy.. whatever ya say.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I never called it a documentary. I called it a film. Again, you're putting words in my mouth and assuming I am saying one thing when in reality - and pretty clearly- I am saying another. Moore had an objective; a point. I think he successfully got that point across through masterful manipulation, whether that entailed misleading information or juxtapositioning "dumb bush" with "evil bush". That point was that the "real war" going on is a class war where Soldiers are doing the dirty work of Big Businesses and Bush is the connection between the two. Particulars be damned, I personally think that is the case in this war and Moore got his point across very well. Is that (my personal opinion on the war) AT ALL relevant to the discussion of Moores work _as a film_? No. The only personal opinion I put in the response you took out of context was "I thought the point of the film..." and didn't say I agree or disagreed with it. Politics belong in Current Events, and there are already a handful of threads on the very topic in that folder. Here we should be talking about his use of music, how he presented the information rather than what information he presented, the themes, the characterisation, and his manipulation all of it. Because what he manipulates shows how he sees it. It's from his perspective. He is narrating it. Of course there is going to be personal bias; I didn't go to see "How Bush really is", I went to see how Moore sees him. I went to see Moore rip Bush a new asshole.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

NoCal, the point goes further than that though. WHY do they want to go into Iraq? Why won't they go into Saudi Arabia? Why isn't Osama a key target anymore?

 

Answer (and, to help MikeSC out here) in Moores eyes: $$$$

 

Iraq is profitable because they can drill for oil, as well as, establish other big businesses in the middle east. Afghanistan was profitable because they now had a government willing to allow them to move a pipeline through the country. Saudi Arabia is profitable because they invest so much in America, and if America attacks S.A., then they lose a big chunk of that investment - of which directly effects the Bush family.

 

*inserts reminder for MikeSC that this is from Moores perspective and is what was represented in the film. This is a discussion of what went on in the film*

 

There is no profit in Osama, so there's no incentive to go after him any more.

 

And there is also profit in fear - so that not only gets the people to accept the US going into Iraq, it also gets them to buy silly fallout shelters.

[TheOriginalOrangeGoblin 0]

"There's a famous saying that says, fool me once, shame on...ummm....y...m...uhhh....YOU CANNOT FOOL ME!"

 

The brilliance of George Dubya Bush.

When you have no ACTUAL point to make, you resort to pure, unmitigated bullshit.

 

Kudos.

-=Mike

Nice to see you can't handle a litte humor. This thread was meant to discuss the MOVIE not your political stance. And that line drew uproarious laughter from people in my theatre(inluding me), thus it is a relevant part of the film.

 

So like I said, good ol' George Dubya.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I thought that was wonderfully placed, because it didn't get the same kind of laughter like the jokes at the beginning. This was half-hearted laughter, because it came after all the dramatic stuff with the soldiers and the families. At the beginning of the film he was a lovable goof, but at the end it was much darker. You hated him for his stupidity. And the words themselves are very relevant.

[Jericholic82 0]

I havent seent eh film yet, but am compelled to after all this debate. Personally I don't like Bush. Actually I don't really trust any polticians. I am 21 years old , but have not registered to vote yet, since I was ineterested more in the presidential race than any other (I urned 18 in dec 00 so I missed the last one) but I will vote this time.

 

since this has turned from a movie topic to poltics (surprise surprise) just let me say one thing. all of you at this forum aged 18 to 25, would you like to go to war? Now my dad is a vietnam vet and despite all the hate for that war his a hero to me. I'm not saying I am a coward, but maybe I am, but I don't have an ineterst in the military. I don't have aproblem with any of the troops who do want to go to war, they are truer heros. I am trying to finish up college so I can get a good career and future. If you ask any vet counselors, they will tell you that (as my dads told him) that Bush has a draft proposal ready to go upon his reelection. Scary thought, though I figured this to be the case.

 

So my point is, I don't like Bush or his party right now, but I will not hate on those who do, this is supposed to be The United States of America and we have the freedom of speech (but not if the FCC and the current administartion get their way)

and I respect everyone's opnion even if I don't agree with it

Now as Michael Moore said himself on Conan on Friday, he is concerned that even Kerry winning would not stop the war anytime soon. So maybe it wont matter.

 

The USA is in major trouble, so my plea to all young americans out there is VOTE, let your voice be heard

 

 

Hopefully we won't let everything get out of hand so that world war iii wont come to be in our lifetime.

 

 

Give us our country back

[1234-5678 0]

There was some footage of Osama at a family gathering within the last few years in F911.

I suppose you have a link that states this, as nothing I've ever seen approaches this.

It was in the movie. Did you watch with your eyes closed and your foot in your mouth as usual?

[Guest MikeSC]

There was some footage of Osama at a family gathering within the last few years in F911.

I suppose you have a link that states this, as nothing I've ever seen approaches this.

It was in the movie. Did you watch with your eyes closed and your foot in your mouth as usual?

I don't remember seeing that part. I tended to drift in and out during most of the movie.

-=Mike

[1234-5678 0]

Man, that really puts you in a great position to be commenting on it then.

 

[Guest MikeSC]

Man, that really puts you in a great position to be commenting on it then.

 

Not my fault it wasn't that good.

 

I will mention that the bin Laden family was huge. His grandfather had 53 or 54 kids (nobody knows) --- and the family has only grown exponentially.

-=Mike

[1234-5678 0]

What's your position on the section of the movie that dealt with Bush not truly winning the election?

[Guest MikeSC]

What's your position on the section of the movie that dealt with Bush not truly winning the election?

Must've missed that part of the movie --- but he's rehashed the story in his books and they've already been disproven.

-=Mike

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

He thinks its all bullshit and you are an asshole and a fucking jerk for bringing it up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Make sure you understand that it is HE who is making the most informed statements around here in SPITE of the liberal slant "around here".

 

 

stupid spelling errors! when I'm bashing of all times!

[1234-5678 0]

What's your position on the section of the movie that dealt with Bush not truly winning the election?

Must've missed that part of the movie --- but he's rehashed the story in his books and they've already been disproven.

-=Mike

That was the first 20 minutes of the movie............

 

In fact a State Rep made a point to say that Congress elected Bush President, and not the people.

[Guest MikeSC]

What's your position on the section of the movie that dealt with Bush not truly winning the election?

Must've missed that part of the movie --- but he's rehashed the story in his books and they've already been disproven.

-=Mike

That was the first 20 minutes of the movie............

 

In fact a State Rep made a point to say that Congress elected Bush President, and not the people.

Well, to be technical, the Congress ELECTS EVERY PRESIDENT, NOT THE PEOPLE.

 

You know, that whole electoral college thing.

 

You'd think a guy as fat as Moore would know that.

-=Mike

[Dangerous A 0]

I read a review comaring F9/11 to The Passion of the Christ. You just change Christianity over to politics and then the comparisons begin..

 

-both movies generated a lot of controversy before they were released.

 

-both directors are seen as zealots for their causes (Gibson for Christianity, Moore for leftist politics)

 

-both movies either reaffirm your beliefs (either Christian faith or Bush hating) or will generate nay saying, some from people who have not seen the movie and will go off of what they heard.

 

-both have parts of their movie that are hard to stomach (Jesus being tortured, dead bodies from the war in Iraq)

 

-both movies have come up with accuracy issues (Gibson's assertion that the Jews were responsible for Jesus death, inaccuaracies in several of Moore's key points in his movie.