The HBK Collapse on Raw

[cawthon777 0]

Over the past few days I’ve spent many hours searching rspw for old Raw recaps from November 95 – June 96 and it’s really brought back a lot of memories. Diesel as the tweener, the brief return of Brother Love, Vader ‘breaking’ Yoko’s leg, the HBK / Diana Hart angle, Bret’s career in limbo after WrestleMania, the Razor / Goldust battle in the snow. But above all of them, what stands out in my mind as the absolute best angle from that time period is the Shawn Michaels collapse.

 

It was the day after the Survivor Series in Richmond, VA. Shawn had just returned to the ring following the Syracuse Nine incident and had won his match at the pay-per-view, despite taking a vicious beating by teammates and opponents alike. His scheduled opponent for the night – Owen Hart. They had met before when the roles were reversed, with Owen playing babyface and Shawn as the heel, and while the match would certainly be good the outcome was never in doubt. At that point in 1995, there was no one who could touch Shawn Michaels in terms of popularity and charisma.

 

And then it happened. After skinning the cat his way back inside the ring, Shawn posed for the fans and then fell to the mat. As referee Earl Hebner checked on Michaels, asking if he could hear his voice, Owen and Cornette talked in the corner. Moments later, EMTs and WWF officials alike filled the ring. Vince, Gorilla, and JR looked on in concern and confusion much like the crowd. No one knew what was going on. The commentary team had long put down the headsets and the show went off the air with no conclusive evidence that Shawn was ok.

 

In the weeks that followed, we were witness to comments from Dr. Unger – Shawn’s doctor – who gave a grim outlook on his health. He might get better in two weeks ... in two months ... in two years ... or he may never be able to wrestle again. Todd Pettingeil went to Shawn’s house and interviewed him, only for Shawn to cut the interview short when the question was asked what he would do if he was never able to get back in the ring. And then there was the emotional “Tell Me a Lie” music video.

 

Of course we all know that it was a set-up for Michaels’ return at the Royal Rumble and his eventual win of the world title at WrestleMania. But in a time where not everyone and their dog had access to the Internet and angles like this were allowed to progress at a drawn-out pace, it made for great TV.

 

I just got done reading an eye-witness report of the show on rspw from someone who I would certainly classify as a very knowledgeable fan and even he was taken back by the events of that night, not sure if it was a work or shoot. I miss that aspect of pro wrestling today – the doubt. Not knowing if Diesel is “shooting” on Vince McMahon when he claims McMahon made him be the corporate puppet when he was champ. Not knowing whether or not Shawn will ever be able to wrestle again.

 

It was fun when they blurred the line. Now I’m not even sure if there is a line. Despite what Paul Heyman says, I know Paul Bearer isn’t going to die on live TV. I know Kane didn’t really knock up Lita. Has the product been truly been dumbed down or are we, as fans, just not as naive as we were back then?

 

So what are your thoughts on the angle, the time period, and how / if times have changed?

[theintensifier 0]

One question: RSPW?

[cawthon777 0]

It's a posting forum. Best I can tell it opened around 1989. Play around with the search engine, you'll be surprised as to how much info is packed in there. I've found countless house show and TV taping recaps dating back to 1990.

 

rec.sport.pro-wrestling

[Guest news_gimmick]

I'm with you on how much more involved I was with the angles of the time compared to today. I remember that night very well and the realism of it all because of the lack of insider info knowledge really added to the overall feel of it all. This angle was one of the first times I searched online for any type of info on how he was doing, because I didn't want to wait til the next week. Couple that with Diesel going the tweener rout which was not common back then, it was just fantastic and had me waiting each week for the next show. How often does that happen consistently anymore? Of course there were some off weeks that weren't all that great, but wrestling has always been like that. One thing I think was done much better back then was how well the utilized the 1 hour shows (imagine that!) Everything advanced an angle, there wasn't much time for worthless filler.

 

Of all the angles though, I'd rank HBK's as the best one(hence the reason he was the main event of Mania 12) the Goldust-Ramon angle (Goldust really made an impact and got the rub and IC title off of Razor) and Diesel's downward spiral towards becoming a nasty bastard of a heel. To me, Diesel threatening Vince was a bit more of a shocker than when Austin was doing it in 98, especially when it became known he was leaving for WCW.

 

Overall, the realism of this era I think planted the seeds of the attitude era, along with Nitro having a major influence at the time. Up to that point in 95, the WWF was still the cartoon it had been since about 91. Man....thinking back on it all really brings back the memories and the feeling I got from watching back then. . heh.. I even remember visiting the old WWF site on AOL was one of my favs at the time, of course before everyone realized that AOL sucks, heh.

 

Anyone else have any great memories to share?

[LucharesuFan619 0]

If you haven't seen RSPW yet, then shit - you have some great stuff to look forward to: go search around. The RSPW archives are incredible in how far back they span.

[landy1987 0]

of course before everyone realized that AOL sucks, heh.

[cawthon777 0]

One thing I think was done much better back then was how well the utilized the 1 hour shows (imagine that!) Everything advanced an angle, there wasn't much time for worthless filler.

Very good point.

 

Here are the results of 1 taping just to illustrate that.

 

WWF @ Newark, DE - Bob Carpenter Center - December 18, 1995

 

Monday Night Raw taping:

 

12/18/95 - featured footage from the previous night's pay-per-view in which Diesel and the Undertaker had a face-to-face confrontation once it was announced Taker would get a world title shot at the Royal Rumble; included WWF President Gorilla Monsoon announcing that Ahmed Johnson would face Jeff Jarrett at the Royal Rumble and that Jarrett would not participate in the Rumble match itself; included Ted Dibiase as a guest of the Brother Love Show in which he spoke of the debut of Xanta Claus the night previous as well as hinting toward bringing back the Million $ Championship; featured the debut of the Shawn Michaels "Tell Me a Lie" music video during the closing segment:

 

Jeff Jarrett defeated Fatu via disqualification when Ahmed Johnson interfered and attacked Jarrett as Jarrett had the figure-4 applied on his opponent (Jarrett's return to Raw after a 5-month absence)

 

Buddy Landell pinned Bob Holly with a corckscrew elbow drop (Landell's only appearance on WWF TV)

 

WWF IC Champion Razor Ramon defeated Yokozuna via count-out when the Undertaker and Paul Bearer came ringside with the casket, causing Yoko to escape backstage; during the bout, Goldust watched on from the entranceway; after the bout, Dok Hendrix interviewed Razor at ringside regarding the contents of the letter given to him last night by Goldust but Razor decided not to share them since children watch the show; Jerry Lawler, who claimed to have the letter, also refused to share what it read

 

The Raw Bowl - 1/1/96 - included the announcement that Shawn Michaels would be holding a press conference the following week; featured a replay in full of the Helmsley / Godwinn Hog Pen match from In Your House; included a closing segment in which Billionaire Ted tried to get his men to copy the moves used by the WWF talent; featured the announcement that Vader would be a participant in the Royal Rumble match:

 

WWF Tag Team Champions the Smoking Gunns defeated Psycho Sid & 1-2-3 Kid (w/ Ted Dibiase), Owen Hart & Yokozuna, and WWF IC Champion Razor Ramon & Savio Vega in the Raw Bowl elimination match; eliminations saw the Kid pin Razor after a clothesline to the back of the head by Sid, even though Vega called for a time-out (which was an added stipulation); Billy Gunn pinned Owen after Yoko accidentally splashed his partner; Billy pinned Sid with a roll up after Razor returned ringside and caused the Kid to collide with Sid; during Razor & Savio's entrance, Goldust's usher brought out a bouquet of gold roses for Razor - resulting in Razor beating the usher up; during the bout, all the participants wore football jerseys - Billy Gunn wore 38, Bart wore 45, Owen wore 1, Yoko wore 641, Razor wore 4, Savio wore Uno, the Kid wore 1-2-3, and Sid wore 00; later in the broadcast, the Brooklyn Brawler presented the Gunns with the Steve Lombardi Trophy, with the Gunns, Ahmed Johnson, Marty Jannetty, Hakushi, and Savio Vega beating up the Brawler in response

 

Diesel pinned King Mabel (w/ Sir Mo) in 8 seconds following a boot to the face; after the match, Diesel hit the powerbomb on Mo; after the bout, Jerry Lawler attempted to interview Diesel but he walked on past Lawler and selected Ashley the Raw Queen to do the interview backstage

 

1/8/96 - included Ted Dibiase introducing 'The Ringmaster' Steve Austin during the Brother Love Show and featured Dibiase bestowing him with the Million $ Championship, which had been inactive for 4 years (Austin's WWF TV debut); featured a replay in full of the Bret / Davey Boy match from In Your House; included the debut of Scheme Gene during a Royal Rumble report which included the announcement that Takaio Amore would be in the Rumble match (and for whatever reason Takaio didn't make the show and was never mentioned again); featured a brief interview with Earl Hebner regarding why he allowed the Bret / Davey Boy world title match to go on despite Hart's massive blood loss; featured a segment featuring Billionaire Ted in which he tried to come up with a new slogan for WCW:

 

Jeff Jarrett defeated Hakushi via submission with the figure-4

 

Ahmed Johnson pinned Jeff Brettler with the Pearl River Plunge; after the bout, Jeff Jarrett came to the ring and attempted to hit Ahmed over the head with his guitar but hit the turnbuckle instead; moments later, Ahmed demolished the guitar before running backstage to find Jarrett

 

Goldust pinned Aldo Montoya with the Curtain Call

 

1/15/96 - included Todd Pettingeil announcing that prior to the Royal Rumble there will be a 'Free for All' match where the winner would earn the #30 spot in the Rumble; featured an in-ring interview with Goldust conducted by Vince McMahon; included a closing segment in which Razor Ramon and Goldust fought in the backstage area, eventually taking it outside into the snow before Goldust was able to escape by driving off in a car:

 

Owen Hart (w/ Jim Cornette) pinned Marty Jannetty

 

Steve Austin (w/ Ted Dibiase) defeated Matt Hardy via submission with the Million $ Dream (Austin's in-ring debut on Raw)

 

WWF Tag Team Champions the Smoking Gunns defeated the Spiders following the Sidewinder; during the bout, it was announced that Sunny obtained a tag team title shot for the Body Donnas at the Royal Rumble

 

The Undertaker (w/ Paul Bearer) pinned Isaac Yankem DDS with the tombstone

[BHK 0]

So what are your thoughts on the angle, the time period, and how / if times have changed?

 

Kayfabe died in 1998. it just did. there;s nothing wrong with it, I guess. You could compare it to being stupd vs. being intelligent

 

If you're stupid there are problems, but you don't care because you're ignorant of said problems. If you're intelligent, then that's valuable, but sometimes you wish you were stupid because there are just SO many problems.

 

in some ways, being a mark was more fun. I never worried about the product, or the quality of it. I just wanted a fun maatch, people I could cheer for and get behind. I wanted to be entertained. The product has fallen so far from when it was at its peak, sometimes it pains me to watch it. I mean, a man who has never put on a *** match in his entire life, and has never drawn, is WWE champion.

 

As far as thoughts on the time, nothing will ever touch Austin/Bret/The hart foundation. From October 96-mid 97, the Austin/Bret fued and heel Bret/the Hart Foundation is some of the best wrestling/storytelling I've ever seen. The only thing that ever came close for me was Austin/Rock at XVII.

 

The only thing that I regret about that stretch of time is that Austin and Bret never had a proper blowoff, and that's almost as sad as Bret never getting to wrestle Angle. Of course, being a giant Bret hart mark, I'm biased.

[JHawk 0]

1/8/96 - included Ted Dibiase introducing 'The Ringmaster' Steve Austin during the Brother Love Show and featured Dibiase bestowing him with the Million $ Championship, which had been inactive for 4 years (Austin's WWF TV debut); featured a replay in full of the Bret / Davey Boy match from In Your House; included the debut of Scheme Gene during a Royal Rumble report which included the announcement that Takaio Amore would be in the Rumble match (and for whatever reason Takaio didn't make the show and was never mentioned again); featured a brief interview with Earl Hebner regarding why he allowed the Bret / Davey Boy world title match to go on despite Hart's massive blood loss; featured a segment featuring Billionaire Ted in which he tried to come up with a new slogan for WCW:

 

I thought Omori did make the show. If not, then who was that Japanese guy that pretended to be him for the entire three minutes he was in there?

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Buddy Landell pinned Bob Holly with a corckscrew elbow drop (Landell's only appearance on WWF TV)

 

He actually had a WWF Title Match vs. Bret Hart at that taping that aired on Mania.

[cawthon777 0]

Good call. I just wrote up that recap and for the life of me couldn't recall who that was.

[cawthon777 0]

Buddy Landell pinned Bob Holly with a corckscrew elbow drop (Landell's only appearance on WWF TV)

 

He actually had a WWF Title Match vs. Bret Hart at that taping that aired on Mania.

Much appreciated. I had that the match took place at the same taping but no clue that it was for Mania. I'll have to search into that a little more.

 

It's pretty obvious why the guy didn't last after I met a heavily intoxicated Landell earlier this year ... who then ended the night by getting into a fight after hitting on a married woman, then abruptly checking out of the hotel.

[JHawk 0]

Buddy Landell pinned Bob Holly with a corckscrew elbow drop (Landell's only appearance on WWF TV)

 

He actually had a WWF Title Match vs. Bret Hart at that taping that aired on Mania.

Much appreciated. I had that the match took place at the same taping but no clue that it was for Mania. I'll have to search into that a little more.

 

It's pretty obvious why the guy didn't last after I met a heavily intoxicated Landell earlier this year ... who then ended the night by getting into a fight after hitting on a married woman, then abruptly checking out of the hotel.

Aired January 13, IIRC. It was originally taped for the 1/8 Raw (a Bret interview aired on the 1/6 Mania and the mat from the Raw Bowl episode was set up), and I'm assuming it got bumped because of the IYH coverage,

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I gotta laugh about the high praise for the HBK angle. I was on the old Prodigy board at the time and I remember the Smarks at the time were PISSED about something, ANYTHING getting by them. The WWF pulled a fast one on them and they didn't like feeling like marks I suppose.

[Guest news_gimmick]

...

[Guest bigdiswrestling]

Its funny because now that I look back, 1995 was a terrible year for both the WWF and WCW. WCW was riding high on the second coming of Hulk Hogan, and his idiotic WCW Champion run where he defended the title once every 3 months MAYBE. Their top heel was Vader and Hogan even no-sold him. Meanwhile, they repackaged Hacksaw, and brought in some awful characters (Craig Pittman, Renegade). Boring Television indeed.

 

Over in the WWF they were slightly better, but the whole year was AWFUL until around October. Right before that, the year was packed with some of the dullest feuds ever. While i loved what Sid did to HBK to spark the feud with Diesel, the matches were downright boring. Diesel vs. Mabel is honestly.. gulp... WORSE than JBL. That's right... WORSE. But the end of the year was great. I loved Survivor Series 95 and Bret winning the title again is what saved it for me. Diesel's heel turn was inevitable, and I even knew he would be turning "bad guy" soon enough (i was in the 5th grade, but i was pretty bright).

 

As for that HBK angle... i thought it was real too, and i loved it. Not just because it was creative, but because I didn't like HBK at all (I was programmed to hate him), even though he's a good wrestler. Then I also realized on the other side that 60 Man Battle Royals and Monster Trucks aren't really fun... and I was 11!

 

Oh well.... cheers to Kayfabe.

[deancoles 0]

95 actually has 2 of my favourite feuds ever, Horowitz/Skip put Barry asa midcarder before his push was stopped and Razor/Douglas/1-2-3 kid was great with Douglas stirring up trouble between the two.

[cawthon777 0]

After reading a bit more from rspw, I believe the reason for the push/non push of Sid during 95 was that the WWF wasn't sure if he was going to leave them high and dry again like he did in 1992.

 

Around the TV taping and house show curcuits, Diesel dominated Sid without even trying. They were having 4 minute long cage matches (when it took 20 minutes to put up the cage) and sometimes even shorter main event bouts at the tapings, which obviously sent the crowd home pissed off. From what I understand, they recorded several of the taping bouts to air in case Sid did abruptly leave.

 

Reading the rumors of the time, many expected Sid to take the belt from Diesel at the July IYH and be challenged by IC Champion Shawn Michaels at Summer Slam.

 

Think about that for a minute.

 

Even if a champion vs. champion, Shawn vs. Sid, main event at a PPV wasn't 5 stars ... it STILL would have been better than Diesel vs. Mabel.

 

Btw, had that match occured I doubt Michaels would have taken the world title so early. If anything, he probably would have won on a DQ. To win belts at back-to-back pay-per-views would have been crazy booking.

 

And the reason Sid wasn't at Summer Slam ... injury.

[Papacita 0]

Razor/Douglas/1-2-3 kid was great with Douglas stirring up trouble between the two.

Most underrated feud ever. I dunno how anyone who saw this feud can say that Dean Douglas was a bad character.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Razor/Douglas/1-2-3 kid was great with Douglas stirring up trouble between the two.

Most underrated feud ever. I dunno how anyone who saw this feud can say that Dean Douglas was a bad character.

The funny thing is that everyone complains about the way the Clique treated Douglas. But in this feud (up until the I-C Title match at the 10/95 IYH), he made them his bitches.

[deancoles 0]

Razor/Douglas/1-2-3 kid was great with Douglas stirring up trouble between the two.

Most underrated feud ever. I dunno how anyone who saw this feud can say that Dean Douglas was a bad character.

That's Douglas propaganda, in ECW and the magazines he'd bury the character and say it was horrible.

[Guest news_gimmick]

Wow, I had always felt Douglas had buried his Dean Douglas gimmick just to further his hardcore gimmick. It really couldve turned out well had he stuck it out and let the character evolve, but instead he let the clique get under his skin just because of his jobbing out of the IC title so quickly. I really feel no pity for him, he burned all his bridges because of his stupidity.

 

 

But about the Razor/Kid/Douglas angle, it really was well thought out and had great development over that fall. The only problem I thought was the abrupt blowoff to it on a mid December Raw when Ramon went clean over the Dean. I think that was his last appearance too. Wasn't he legit injured and about to take some time off, only to return to ECW like 6 months later in 1996?

[Guest Choken One]

Btw, had that match occured I doubt Michaels would have taken the world title so early. If anything, he probably would have won on a DQ. To win belts at back-to-back pay-per-views would have been crazy booking.

 

And the reason Sid wasn't at Summer Slam ... injury.

really? I just thought they felt they needed something special and scrapped that match and gave us the heatless Shawn/Razor Ladder II match....

 

but I thought Sid being injured was Kayfabed and President Monsoon announced because of a injury to sid, He signed a WMX rematch between them, despite they having no recent history or reasoning to face each other.

 

I don't recall Sid being Injured.

 

I still think they should have just completely heel turned Luger at the early Summer portion by having him turn on Bulldog and then Give Luger the Heel run against Nash leading up to SummerSlam.

 

That would have been less shitty and wouldn't be completely embarassing...They really wasted Luger in 1995, His Face run was over and the tag team thing with Bulldog was meaningless and unneccesary.

[Guest Choken One]

Wow, I had always felt Douglas had buried his Dean Douglas gimmick just to further his hardcore gimmick. It really couldve turned out well had he stuck it out and let the character evolve, but instead he let the clique get under his skin just because of his jobbing out of the IC title so quickly. I really feel no pity for him, he burned all his bridges because of his stupidity.

 

 

But about the Razor/Kid/Douglas angle, it really was well thought out and had great development over that fall. The only problem I thought was the abrupt blowoff to it on a mid December Raw when Ramon went clean over the Dean. I think that was his last appearance too. Wasn't he legit injured and about to take some time off, only to return to ECW like 6 months later in 1996?

Not only that but Kid/Ramon were having a good series of matches too.

[Guest krazykat72]

As far as thoughts on the time, nothing will ever touch Austin/Bret/The hart foundation. From October 96-mid 97, the Austin/Bret fued and heel Bret/the Hart Foundation is some of the best wrestling/storytelling I've ever seen. The only thing that ever came close for me was Austin/Rock at XVII.

 

The only thing that I regret about that stretch of time is that Austin and Bret never had a proper blowoff, and that's almost as sad as Bret never getting to wrestle Angle. Of course, being a giant Bret hart mark, I'm biased.

you need to look into getting some All Japan early to mid 90's tapes.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Guest bigdiswrestling]

And the reason Sid wasn't at Summer Slam ... injury.

 

Yes I distinctly remember the match with HBK and Sid booked for SummerSlam for the IC title, but Gorilla Monsoon came on WWF Superstars i THINK after he was announced as the "Interum" WWF President.

 

If my memories are correct, Gorilla said that he was the "people's" president and wanted to please the fans, so he decided to pull Sid out of SummerSlam and add the Ladder Match as a special attraction.

 

 

Even though Summerslam sucked, i'm glad we were saved with an actual good match instead of a potentially bad Sid / Shawn Michaels Match.

[cawthon777 0]

but I thought Sid being injured was Kayfabed and President Monsoon announced because of a injury to sid, He signed a WMX rematch between them, despite they having no recent history or reasoning to face each other.

 

I don't recall Sid being Injured.

You know what ... after taking a look at what I have for Sid at the time, apparently I spoke too soon because he appeared right before and right after Summer Slam. In fact, the 9/11/95 Raw with Sid vs. HBK was taped the day after the PPV.

 

So I don't know why Sid was taken out. Maybe it was a simple "to boost the buyrate".

[Guest Choken One]

I think it was a case of them knowing they didn't have a single draw for the PPV.

 

Actually, Nash/Mabel aside... Slam 1995 wasn't anything bad but By putting Shawn/Razor...you made the card memorable in a nicer way.

[deancoles 0]

Leaving Razor off Summerslam would have been stupid anyway, I would have done Razor/Bulldog to establish Bulldog as a WWF Title contender.

 

If not Razor/Bulldog you could have done Razor/Savio vs. Yokozuna and Owen Hart for the Tag Belts.

 

Sid,Luger,Bulldog,Owen,Yokozuna,Lafitte,Vega(could have jobbed to Douglas) and Waylon Mercy were all left off the card and I don't recall any of them being injured at the time,Summerslam could have been so much better with these guys in action.

[Guest Choken One]

Well...

 

I would have gone Bulldog/Luger since they pretty much were building to Bulldog's heel turn anyways around this period

 

Razor and Savio could have easily finish that little thing with Owen and Yoko.

 

The card should have been this

 

WWF Title Match

Nash Vs Luger (He should have been turned Heel at the Lumberjack match the month before where he would attack Nash by surprise but Nash still keeps the title). In hindsight, Luger leaving right after this kinda would made Nash look stronger....or with a Main event slot, Luger could have been motivated to stay.

 

I.C Title Match

Shawn Vs Sid (When Shawn was Healthy, he could carry SID very well).

 

WWF Tag Titles

Razor/Savio Vs Owen and Yoko

 

Bret/Issac Yankem

 

Dean/123 Kid (to add to the upcoming Dean/Ramon angle)

 

Skip/Horowitz

 

and another shit break match.

 

Much better and condensed Card.