The Invasion and nWo

[Promoter 0]

This thread is about what I feel went wrong with the wwe in 2001 and 2002 in terms of blowing the nwo and wcw invasions of the wwe. I think certain things have to be taken into consideration here.

 

When Vince Mcmahon bought wcw and used Shane Mcmahon in storylines as the man who stole the company from underneath his nose that was brilliant. The reason being that the big news had already leaked out in the mainstream press that the wwe bought wcw. If the wwe could have kept things under wrap it might have been better, but being realistic that was impossible. What I think the main problem was at first was that Vince Mcmahon obviously was happy to be the man to purchase his competition and rightfully so. Anyone would have been the same in terms of being happy about that accomplishment, but Vince lost track of what he really did have in his hands.

 

Go back and watch the raw/nitro simulcast and see how Vince degrades his own company in wcw by stating he had the organization in the palm of his hands and he was shocked that they weren't performing in a barnyard or something to that nature. This is good heat if Vince had planned on making wcw separate, but he didn't. Imagine the opposite happening if Eric Bischoff bought the wwf and he showed up on raw and said those things. You can bet that wwf fans would slowly turn off, but at least see where things were going. You had Booker T and Scott Stiener in the last real wcw title match with Booker T going over. This is all well and good. They even had Ric Flair cut a wicked promo on the wwf and Vince Mcmahon defending the history of the nwa/wcw. Keep that in mind when a few months later Flair shows up in his hometown backing a "winner" in the wwf. Nonsensical. Vince forgot he now had two different fanbases to cater to. Yes, I know ratings and attendance was falling for wcw, but the fact of the matter was that wcw at one time was the #1 company and people did know about their existence. The wwe should have worked to generate interest back into wcw by giving its fanbase some hope.

 

Anyways, the finish of the simulcast with Shane proclaiming his wcw would kick Vince's ass like it did before. Now, I bring things to WM 17 where Shane Mcmahon vs. Vince Mcmahon happened. The hype of the wcw purchase was at its fever pitch right here and there should have been a stipulation about the future of the two companies. I know some might say this was too close to the purchase, but if I recall correctly in late February and early March Big Show did speak about Vince having something up his sleeve for the wrestling business which tells me the purchase thing was in the works for at least a month. The wwe legally through a court order also had the first rights to purchasing wcw from the legal problems wcw and wwf had over the Razor and Diesel gimmicks.

 

You see how we now have the two brands separate on different days? Vince and Shane Mcmahon should have fought over those television rights. Shane is also an owner of the wwf remember and would be realistic. The wwe started to stray from realism starting from the Survivor Series 2000 show. Anyways, Vince could have kept raw and Shane should have got wcw nitro for the thursday timeslot. That way the big hype of the future of nitro's heat would have transfered over. You separate the two entities and keep the fanbases separate. You want to make a big impact with star power? The wwe could have still used Austin with his heel turn in Texas, but make him turn on wwe fans and on Vince Mcmahon. Move Austin to wcw and nitro. That would give wcw a big boost. Austin would have a great explanation of not wanting to deal with the crap Vince was doing to him anymore and that wwe fans didn't deserve his services anymore since they didn't actually miss him while he was out.

 

Now, I'm keeping this in real-time and the incidents that occurred. Rock would be gone as well because of him filming his movies. You have Rock and Austin leave in protest since Vince would be asking for their help on the resurrection of wcw. Rock leaves Vince and heads to hollywood because of the same reasons, but he doesn't turn on the fans. This keeps Austin heel and Rock face. You have the two biggest stars question the future chance wwf has of competing with this new wcw. The wwe had to put themselves at a disadvantage in the beginning since they in reality won the war. Vince strips Austin of the wwf title and there is no nonsensical story of Austin taking the title over to the Alliance. In reality, Vince would strip Austin of the belt. We know what he did to Austin to prevent the issue of embarassment.

 

The wwe and wcw would then switch up talents through some manueverings since Shane was also an owner of the wwf. You create a storyline where Shane is absolved of his duties as owner of the wwf. You have Stephanie Mcmahon and Triple H stand by the father of sports entertainment Vince Mcmahon. Linda could stand behind her son who is a momma's boy. The trick though would be too keep this very low on segment content and focus on wcw's resurrection and repeat the sort of exodus that happened in 1994-1996 between wwf stars jumping to wcw. You do this for the summer of 2001. You have SummerSlam be a joint venture where Rock returns and wins the wwf title before having the champ vs. champ ppv showdown with Steve Austin to blow off Austin/Rock's story for that year. The finish can be similar to the HHH/HBK one last December or what they actually did with Kurt Angle. You run the same angle that was done where Rock returns not for Vince, but for his wwf fans. This would be the bright hope and hopefully by this time both wcw and the wwf could be on equal footing.

 

You run things as normal and make things seem like par for the course to set up the big storm ahead. At the 2002 Royal Rumble you have the big guns come in as a surprise and advertise the lesser guys. I know the wwe was in talks with Hogan, Hall, and Nash before the Rumble because it was in the "dirtsheets". The wwe should have just got Goldberg here. You also save Ric Flair. Now, you bring Flair in as a bitter man and the hired bodyguard of Shane Mcmahon. You need Flair to represent wcw plain and simple. It should happen sooner actually, but I'm going off real time here. The nWo ruin the Royal Rumble and there is no winner who goes on to challenge the wwf champion. You make Hogan, Hall, and Nash cut a promo that is more vicious than the one they did at Bash at the Beach. I know this would piss off people for not having a finish to the Rumble, but I think the surprise return of the nWo would overshadow this and the group would have made a serious impact. Hogan, Hall, and Nash are pissed off at Vince Mcmahon and demand their bounty money that was promised for destroying wcw. Again, in early 2002 for some odd reason HBK was re-signed, but for whatever reasons people say he and Triple H had some kind of falling out and couldn't appear. Okay, we'll deal with that, but I would also have HBK appear in the nWo and proclaim the conspiracy that was set up by Vince Mcmahon to destroy "Billionaire" Ted.

 

Now remember, wcw and the wwf would be against each other. I would have the nWo be the renegade group disrupting both entities. There would be abuzz in the air. The rosters and its champions would look like this at the time of the nWo takeover.

 

WWF

WWF Heavyweight Champion: The Rock

WWF Intercontinental Champion: Chris Jericho

WWF Tag Team Champion: Dudleys

 

WCW

WCW Heavyweight Champion: "Stone Cold" Steve Austin

WCW United States Champion: Booker T

WCW Tag Team Champion: Palumbo & O'Haire

*You need to keep at least 2/3 as what wcw was before being bought out to keep the illusion.

 

Now, it would be a year in the making for the dream "superbowl" at WrestleMania 18 instead of the rushed crap at Invasion in July of 2001.

 

WWF Heavyweight Title Match

The Rock(wwf) vs. Bill Goldberg (wcw)

You pit the two babyfaces against each other in Toronto.

This way you still save the real dream match between Goldberg/Austin

It's not fair, but Rock would put him over and go do his movie gig

Goldberg as WWF Champ would work well in creating tension in the wcw vs. wwf war by having him come over to the wwf to show wcw as superior. WCW's top star is rebuilt and sets up Goldberg for future anti-wwf reign.

 

WCW Heavyweight Title Match

Steve Austin vs. "Hollywood" Hulk Hogan

The storyline is wcw oriented where Hogan claims he never lost his wcw title due to Russo's crap. You got the real icon vs. icon match-up with something on the line. Hogan would have to do the job.

 

Triple H/Kurt Angle (wwf)vs. Scott Hall/Kevin Nash(nWo)

Angle would carry the match since all of these guys would be rusty, but Trips and Angle would be defending Vince Mcmahon.

 

Vince Mcmahon vs. Ric Flair

*These would be the top stories and matches for the event.

 

Now, you keep the two separate and perhaps run the current landscape. You build things for SummerSlam 2002. I would still run the Lesnar project and have him be the new saviour for the wwe by going over Goldberg at SummerSlam for the wwf title. I would do Rock/Hogan at SummerSlam 2002 as well with the nWo on the line. Rock is the man who ends the nWo. Hogan goes into hiding. I will go with Austin leaving and so on since he did disappear. Now with the nWo gone Eric Bischoff in wcw brings them back under the wcw banner. You run the brand split the same. The key is too use the hype from the wcw purchase and use wcw/nWo instead of going the route of raw/smackdown brands. They needed to build back wcw immediately with the hype in early 2002. Using Austin they would have the biggest star of the attitude era bringing fans over to the wcw and have Rock be the face of the wwf giving wwf fans something to cheer for. Austin would turn heel on the wwe, ut still stay face as it was hard to turn him completely anyways with his strong fanbase. You make the needed adjustments in the midcards to strengthen both companies. You eliminate the Mcmahon focus that was done which took away from the entities of ecw and wcw. I would not have used ecw either as the mainstream news was wcw. ECW could have rebelled within wcw for its own storyline. You take the purchase of wcw and actually deliver on the product like it was one of your own instead of just making it a half year storyline. This way you could milk it for years instead.

[Guest Trivia247]

Invasion was poorly booked from the word go. What was once a group to be considered babyfaces against Vince twisted into strange quasi tweeners, as fans disliked them and even segments of WWF wrestlers making the case that the WCW wrestlers were taking their matches and therefore taking money and food from their family, Which of course is a compelling arguement.

 

When they fully turned them heel the WCW still seemed stale, so with the hiring of Tommy Dreamer and RVD they brought in the ECW faction... Now in many peoples opinion on here the ECW split was actually pretty exciting. But then this group got absorbed into the WCW group renamed the Alliance, and no true mention of ECW was made after the Invasion PPV due to the legal issues happening.

 

The Invasion also stunted various little feuds which would have made interesting television, for instance Tazz vs Austin for Austins beatdown on Cole. Tazz was set to kick his ass when he came back to commentating that thursday, was steaming over it that weekend, but on Monday the ECW group turned and joined WCW. Killing that feud effectively. and whats worse Austin made the point in making Tazz a punk to abuse on national tv. (Which pretty much killed forever the name Taz and leaving us the empty bloated shell of Company man tazz we know today)

 

Invasion failed because the lack of any serious big names, DDP, RVD, Dreamer, Booker, Rhyno were probably the biggest names out of the bunch but they didn't translate that starpower very well intially in the WWF.

 

The nWo angle is another kettle of fish entirely. You had the original Forumuli Hogan Nash Hall... But they never got the opportunity to build on it, for Hogan's turning face after Wrestlemania (either that was planned before WM or the fact that the Fan reaction to hogan really tipped the creative scales) That screwed with the nWo forumli, so another third member was added Xpac. So we still retained the same Outsider/Wolfpac group for a while.....then Scott hall gets fired from the fame plane ride from hell... nWo then gains Shawn Michaels. Michaels was on the Cusp of returning as a wrestler again only a few months away, and his appearance really did reenergize the angle some. Ric Flair somehow manage to take over the group in terms of management but not as a true member nad elected to add the Big show to the nWo in a swerve that most of us saw a mile away. Booker T of course joined temporarly But was kicked out.....literally. Once Kevin Nash tripped few and got his Leg boo boo that was pretty much the end of the nWo. Without any of the original creators there was no where for the nWo to go. So Vince Killed it rather Humiliatedly.

 

The nWo probably could have been a bit more positive as a heel group with more effectiveness if some events didn't happen, Scott Hall's Firing, Hogan's turn, Nashes injury. each event was its own nail in its coffin and finally the nWo era from WCW to Japan to WWF is dead buried and urinated on by good ol Vinnie Mac.

[The Buzz 0]

Like everyones said a million times before. Without the WCW big names like Sting, Goldberg, Steiner(at the time), Flair, etc. It wasn't going anywhere. I still think they could have revived the angles, but they dropped them both.

[AlaskanHero 0]

The angle possibly been saved if they made Booker T and the WCW title feel more important. I don't remember too much of what happened, but from what I do remember, the WCW title didn't feel all that important. It felt like the IC title, second best to the WWF's. If they were placed on the same level (and with Booker being the champ at the time), Booker could've seemed like the leader or something. I wish I could take a look at some of the shows from back then.

[Promoter 0]

My thing is not really about making an original splash for the big interpromotional match with the big guns. I'm more of the opinion that this current brand split idea is just a substitute for what would have been wcw and the wwf. The wwf should not have mixed the two the way they did at the time. You see how patient Vince is with "his idea" of the brand extension? That is what I feel Vince should have done with the purchase of wcw. Have patience and build it back up. THEN you run the supercard. You give some dream matches here and there to keep fans interested, but the goal should be to have two brands.

[Guest Anglesault]

WCW never should have been the face group, no matter how many people say so.

 

They were a group of people that went out of business trying to steal TV time from WWF wrestlers. A very heelish thing to do

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

I was at the Smackdown taping where Vince was saying he was going to inject the WWF with poison and turned around and the chair had the nWo logo on it. The crowd, most of whom were leaving because they thought the show was over, had a collective response of not caring about such a blockbuster announcement.

[Promoter 0]

Anglesault is right. That was a major flaw in what they did. They can't have wcw come in and try to bully spots from wwf wrestlers. That is why I stated that Austin or someone of his stature needed to get behind wcw. You had to take someone extremely popular and give wcw a leg to stand on. You turn Vince into the bully somehow. I think Austin would be best. The Rock couldn't do it because the fans are much faster to turn on him than Austin. We saw how hard it took the wwe to fully turn the fans on Austin. Austin/Mcmahon was the heart of the attitude era and if Austin left Vince in relation to that storyline it would be like Hogan leaving Vince in 1993 for the wcw. He would bring people to the side of wcw.

[Promoter 0]

I was at the Smackdown taping where Vince was saying he was going to inject the WWF with poison and turned around and the chair had the nWo logo on it. The crowd, most of whom were leaving because they thought the show was over, had a collective response of not caring about such a blockbuster announcement.

You know when that happened my friends who were casuals actually thought Vince was lying and didn't buy it. They asked me if it was true and asked why he was bringing them back. In hindsight there really was no real reason to bring them back. The storyline was nonsensical and not rooted in something like Hall and Nash entering wcw in 1996.

[Golgo 13 0]

The Invasion should have easily written itself. The angle recovered well enough from the disasterous first night, and it was very salvagable, even without the big WCW names, until the night Steph was brought into the picture. It started off well enough, with the ECW reformation, who could have served the nWo purpose well... but of course, it all went to hell later. It turned into any old WWF stable with Test, Austin, Angle, Christian, etc. joining.

 

There was also WCW and later the Alliance looking second-rate. From Booker literally never getting one up on Rock and losing the belt, to DDP being booked as a jobber, to Booker deferring leadership to Angle and Austin later. Just terrible.

 

What I truly don't get was Vince unwilling to buy out contracts and sign people for the Invasion, but right after the Invasion ended he picked up Flair, and a few months after that shelled out money for Hogan, Nash and Hall.

 

As for the nWo... that angle was pretty well over when Rock walked out with a limp and taped ribs weeks after Hogan attempted to, well, kill him. It didn't even get as far as the Invasion before looking like a joke.

[Promoter 0]

What I truly don't get was Vince unwilling to buy out contracts and sign people for the Invasion, but right after the Invasion ended he picked up Flair, and a few months after that shelled out money for Hogan, Nash and Hall.

 

As for the nWo... that angle was pretty well over when Rock walked out with a limp and taped ribs weeks after Hogan attempted to, well, kill him. It didn't even get as far as the Invasion before looking like a joke.

That is how I feel about it. It didn't work because Vince didn't want it to. The nonsensical stuff in 2001 and 2002 I believe turned away fans and some haven't come back since. That sounds strange, but it's true. Look how Vince was determined to make Brock a star. Vince had a dispute with Hogan in 2002, but somehow he got Hogan back to do the match with him at Mania 19. Vince just did not want the thing to work. When Vince wants things to work he does his damn best to make it work. The Rock is another example. If anyone has the Royal Rumble 2002 dvd and seen the extra with Ric Flair he states that Vince didn't follow through with wcw for whatever reason. The reason is understandable since they really put a hurting on him, but it can't be denied it has hurt the industry. Even with wcw at its lowest levels in 2000-2001 the business was still stronger. Vince admitted on OTR that wcw was good for business and that maybe he shouldn't have purchased it. Vince had the power to make it work and not regret having wcw as a viable entity.

[Guest GreatOne]

Oh WAA WAA WAA two and three years later Vince McMahon's still in business after "botching the biggest angles in history". Like I've said repeatedly, Bischoff was willing to remake WCW into a southern version of WWE in effect and they were desperate for ratings, so he could afford to kill Sting and Flair off. We came up with a good line about it a few years back, "as long as Vince McMahon's in business, so is Eric Bischoff" (ok that didn't end up EXACTLY true).

 

WWE never really had to do that. You had Austin, Rock, HHH, Foley, Undertaker, and Angle, Jericho, Benoit, and Eddie on deck. Yes most were former WCW "castoffs" (who truthfully Bischoff made their worth to him known so they rightly took off). The Invasion crowd seems to think that WCW and WWE were two equal beasts in 2001, hardly. It's like saying the XFL was equal to the NFL (you know everybody bitched about all the anti-NFL comments), or what if Warren Sapp had up and signed with a team in the CFL back in the spring (with like roughly a 6.8 mil pay cut) instead of the Raiders, should we be calling for a merger?

 

Even if the Invasion is led by Flair and the Magnificent Seven, the NWO, Goldberg, or Bret Hart (thanks Meltz), it doesn't work. Simple everybody who stopped watching WCW after the Fingerpoke of Doom (or any other time in 99 or 00 when it got absolutely lame) is supposed to buy "WCW" going over "WWE"? Rock and Austin are supposed to waste two months selling the NWO? McMahon's supposed to put his entire company on hold so he can appease a few smarks--the only ones really clamoring for this?

 

Hey we might have seen Eddie or Benoit as champ even earlier, and even better, in Rock/Austin feuds if none of this happened. As it was Jericho's reign had no steam cause it happened six months too late. THAT'S the only bad thng about the Invasion I came away with.

[Guest MikeSC]

Go back and watch the raw/nitro simulcast and see how Vince degrades his own company in wcw by stating he had the organization in the palm of his hands and he was shocked that they weren't performing in a barnyard or something to that nature. This is good heat if Vince had planned on making wcw separate, but he didn't.

He absolutely DID intend for them to be seperate. He couldn't get Viacom to agree to give WCW a TV slot on Spike. They even had a TV taping scheduled that was cancelled when they couldn't get the deal done.

You had Booker T and Scott Stiener in the last real wcw title match with Booker T going over. This is all well and good. They even had Ric Flair cut a wicked promo on the wwf and Vince Mcmahon defending the history of the nwa/wcw. Keep that in mind when a few months later Flair shows up in his hometown backing a "winner" in the wwf.

Flair did defend the tradition of the NWA. He ALSO had no problem griping about WCW, even telling Russo that he could David a job with the WWF tomorrow just by picking up the phone on an episode of Nitro once.

Yes, I know ratings and attendance was falling for wcw, but the fact of the matter was that wcw at one time was the #1 company and people did know about their existence. The wwe should have worked to generate interest back into wcw by giving its fanbase some hope.

WCW was dead. It'd have been as foolish as the WWF buying AWA and trying to push Greg Gagne as a national draw.

 

At a certain point, the problem is beyond repair. They had young talent with potential --- but they had NO draws.

You see how we now have the two brands separate on different days? Vince and Shane Mcmahon should have fought over those television rights. Shane is also an owner of the wwf remember and would be realistic. The wwe started to stray from realism starting from the Survivor Series 2000 show. Anyways, Vince could have kept raw and Shane should have got wcw nitro for the thursday timeslot. That way the big hype of the future of nitro's heat would have transfered over. You separate the two entities and keep the fanbases separate. You want to make a big impact with star power? The wwe could have still used Austin with his heel turn in Texas, but make him turn on wwe fans and on Vince Mcmahon. Move Austin to wcw and nitro. That would give wcw a big boost. Austin would have a great explanation of not wanting to deal with the crap Vince was doing to him anymore and that wwe fans didn't deserve his services anymore since they didn't actually miss him while he was out.

One problem --- these kinds of angles just do not work. You stick Austin there and WCW STILL dies because there were, again, NO draws. You'd have to keep giving them some WWF guys to TRY and keep them afloat.

 

Imagine SD today with LESS drawing power and that is what WCW was facing. PLUS, WWF fans HATED WCW regardless and WCW fans weren't going to watch a "watered-down version of WCW" --- which is what ANYTHING the WWF did with WCW would be referred to as.

 

Your entire premise is based on WCW guys and ECW being able to draw, something they showed little ability to do.

-=Mike

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Bringing the ECW name into the fold not only cost McMahon a small headache and some money, but ruined the vibe of Invasion to me.

 

Why do I give a shit about some little has-been fed that I not only never heard of until I got online, but couldn't find on TV schedules until it's absolutely worst period? Why are we wrecking the vibe of WWF vs WCW with this shit?

 

Furthermore, if I as a mark turning smark in that period, could not give a crap, why should a WWF-watching mark, who's probably only watched a few hours of WCW and no ECW at all, even begin to care?

 

WWF vs WCW is PERFECT, it's what about a million people at one point or another have had little wet dreams about, it doesn't need this shit and it didn't need a McMahon father/son feud either. Vince/Shane should have ended at WM17 and Shane should have disappeared from the angle entirely to put the focus on the new wrestlers instead.

 

And yes, NWO should have been a WWF faction that eventually turned on it's own when the Invasion period was over and Vince realizes he can't control them.

[Slayer 0]

I'm not gonna try and analyze this from a business POV, but the invasion died for me the second Shane introduced Steph as owner of ECW

[Guest Staravenger]

I'm not gonna try and analyze this from a business POV, but the invasion died for me the second Shane introduced Steph as owner of ECW

Ditto. That night was great...until that.

 

Shane McMahon finally turns heel as the WCW owner, laying a beatdown on Taker...kinda, and having DDP diamondcut Sara.

 

Then we have the ECW Reunion with Tommy Dreamer & Rob Van Dam running in from the crowd.

 

Then we have the ECW & WCW formation, which wasn't too bad.

 

Then Steph is the "owner". (toilet flushes)

[Promoter 0]

Your entire premise is based on WCW guys and ECW being able to draw, something they showed little ability to do.

-=Mike

 

Imagine SD today with LESS drawing power and that is what WCW was facing. PLUS, WWF fans HATED WCW regardless and WCW fans weren't going to watch a "watered-down version of WCW" --- which is what ANYTHING the WWF did with WCW would be referred to as.

Nope, my premise is that the wwe purchased an entity and from a business perspective didn't allow using shareholder's money to make back on the investment. I'm not crying over spilled milk, but just making an obvservation for discussion on the message boards. Again, this is not about ANGLES per se, but making a brand work. You are missing the point of making wcw a draw in and of itself. Do you think if Vince was serious about making the thing work he would not try to make it draw?

 

You can't say for sure that this fan or that fan wouldn't watch a different version of wcw if it was taken seriously by its owners. For what they did of course wcw fans wouldn't watch. Why not really try to make it an alternative? Again, I never stated wcw and the wwe as equals in 2001. I stated that the wwe could have had a real brand split cosmetically right now instead of raw vs. smackdown. In other words what the wwe could have done besides this brand split we have now. It's not about wcw going over wwe, but creating two entities. It's not about appeasing a few smarks because quite frankly I think only the smarks and some fans left from the last boom are really interested in this brand split.

[Guest JMA]

WCW shouldn't have been a heel OR babyface group, IMO. It shouldn't have even been a group -- it should've been a promotion like it always was. Having it be just a stable cheapened the entire angle.

[Slickster 0]

WCW shouldn't have been a heel OR babyface group, IMO. It shouldn't have even been a group -- it should've been a promotion like it always was. Having it be just a stable cheapened the entire angle.

Exactly. I'm wondering if they couldn't just have had Shane come out on RAW in 6/01, say "I'm starting WCW (insert name of show and time here)" and heel Vince could be like "You're fucking dumb. I'm so sure that nobody will care about WCW, if ANY WWF stars want to leave and work for this guy, then go."

 

Have a couple big WWF names join WCW, then the 2 companies work like RAW and SD! today. In this plan, the 2 companies would be totally separate in storylines (except for ads during each others commercial breaks).

 

Instead, you take 20 guys with years of character development and make them into heels with their motivation being that they WANT to GET PAID. WTF?

[Promoter 0]

The Hollywood Fashion Plate and JMA get what I'm trying to say. Vince should not have turned it only into a 6 month storyline and heel/babyface group. Austin would be the poster boy for wcw like Sting was as an example. You give it a facelift if the plan all along was to create two brands like what we have now. RAW/Smackdown as two brands aren't cutting it. You had wcw/nwa with its long history and the wwf with its history to work off. What the hell is raw and smackdown, but two television show names. One that was simply done as a counter to thunder in 1999.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Shane McMahon finally turns heel as the WCW owner, laying a beatdown on Taker...kinda, and having DDP diamondcut Sara.

 

Then we have the ECW Reunion with Tommy Dreamer & Rob Van Dam running in from the crowd.

 

Then we have the ECW & WCW formation, which wasn't too bad.

 

Then Steph is the "owner". (toilet flushes)

Man, you guys really hate her.

 

 

She's not great, but come on, this was a period where we had SARA UNDERTAKER on our screen for gods sakes.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Exactly. I'm wondering if they couldn't just have had Shane come out on RAW in 6/01, say "I'm starting WCW (insert name of show and time here)" and heel Vince could be like "You're fucking dumb. I'm so sure that nobody will care about WCW, if ANY WWF stars want to leave and work for this guy, then go."

Would've needed some fancy booking to explain how Shane could steal Vince's Thursday night spot.

 

 

 

Remember, people: the company couldn't get any more TV time during the Invasion. They tried, but it turned out the XFL completely jinxed this. McMahon fucked up so hard on NBC (including completely tanking the ratings of a sweeps week episode of Saturday Night Live) that nobody was willing to give him any more than he already had.

[Promoter 0]

Would've needed some fancy booking to explain how Shane could steal Vince's Thursday night spot.

Shane Mcmahon owns some of the wwe remember along with his sister, dad, and mother in the storylines and basically in real. Remember they wanted to do the silly divorce angle to split the companyat one time where Linda got one half and Vince got the other? Linda and Shane could have taken the thursday spot and Vince/Steph take over the monday slot. The angle was set for WM 17 with the Linda brain dead angle. Linda could have just given Shane the Thursday slot.

[Masked Man of Mystery 0]

I think if the WCW roster was infused with the ECW wrestlers and given a a show it might've worked. Take the best of WCW(Booker, Steiner, etc.), throw in the better ECW guys like Dreamer and RVD, and let the cruisers own the lower card. It'd sorta be like what Smackdown would be if they booked it properly. By the way, what kind of shape was Mike Awesome in at the time, I remember seeing him in thngs taped earlier and him being a darn good power man, and I'm amazed he wasn't signed into WWF proper afer Invasion.

[Guest The Ultimate Fantasy]

What the hell was the deal with Taz getting the shit beat out of him, during the entire angle? Seriously I just thought it was sad and kind of pointless.

 

Although it was really cool when every midcard and jobber became a mob led by the A.P.A, especially when they beat the shit out of anyone who they thought was part of WCW because to me that felt very realistic and intresting.

 

Don't forget that during the Invasion you pretty much had no one as the super face against Austin, and Austin was still very popular thus making it very hard for the Alliance to gain heel heat, untill the Rock came back but that was close to the end.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

Undertaker's burial of DDP was the real death of this. Booker vs. Buff takes a lot of blame but the angle was already dead by then. Here you had the biggest name WCW talent getting treated like a total chump and that just made the Alliance irrelevant. By the Raw after the Invasion show it was just all WWF guys anyway.

[chaosrage 0]

Bringing the ECW name into the fold not only cost McMahon a small headache and some money, but ruined the vibe of Invasion to me.

 

Why do I give a shit about some little has-been fed that I not only never heard of until I got online, but couldn't find on TV schedules until it's absolutely worst period? Why are we wrecking the vibe of WWF vs WCW with this shit?

 

Furthermore, if I as a mark turning smark in that period, could not give a crap, why should a WWF-watching mark, who's probably only watched a few hours of WCW and no ECW at all, even begin to care?

 

WWF vs WCW is PERFECT, it's what about a million people at one point or another have had little wet dreams about, it doesn't need this shit and it didn't need a McMahon father/son feud either. Vince/Shane should have ended at WM17 and Shane should have disappeared from the angle entirely to put the focus on the new wrestlers instead.

 

And yes, NWO should have been a WWF faction that eventually turned on it's own when the Invasion period was over and Vince realizes he can't control them.

They needed to bring ECW into it because no one would seriously believe that Booker T, Buff Bagwell, Kanyon, Palumbo, and Stasiak could be a threat to the entire WWF. The combined WCW-ECW wasn't much of a threat either, so Austin and Angle had to switch sides, but it was a lot more of a threat. The little has been fed was doing better buyrates than WCW on it's way out.

 

The whole problem with the invasion was Vince couldn't get any big names and the names he did get, nobody gave a shit about. WCW ran out of business because nobody cared enough to watch any of their guys, so why would people care about them all of a sudden now that they were on Raw?

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

By the way, what kind of shape was Mike Awesome in at the time, I remember seeing him in thngs taped earlier and him being a darn good power man, and I'm amazed he wasn't signed into WWF proper afer Invasion.

IIRC, he was in pretty good shape. The knock on him was that he was a bit sloppy with his moves. And he was signed post-Invasion. However, he tore his ACL, and when he came back he was a bit out of shape, and sluggish in the ring, so the released him.

 

They needed to bring ECW into it because no one would seriously believe that Booker T, Buff Bagwell, Kanyon, Palumbo, and Stasiak could be a threat to the entire WWF.

They could have if they were booked similar to the nWo. Use guerrilla (sp?) warfare - gang up on a few WWF guys backstage, create an air of uncertainty in the WWF lockerroom, and tease WWF guys defecting. Of course, that would mean making the WCW guys look better than the WWF guys, and Vince couldn't have that (even if it meant building a huge money-making angle).

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

When Vince Mcmahon bought wcw and used Shane Mcmahon in storylines as the man who stole the company from underneath his nose that was brilliant. The reason being that the big news had already leaked out in the mainstream press that the wwe bought wcw. If the wwe could have kept things under wrap it might have been better, but being realistic that was impossible. What I think the main problem was at first was that Vince Mcmahon obviously was happy to be the man to purchase his competition and rightfully so. Anyone would have been the same in terms of being happy about that accomplishment, but Vince lost track of what he really did have in his hands.

 

First off, Shane getting the company was an alright idea......assuming they couldn't get anyone else to do it. Could you imagine what this angle would have been like if they would have brought in Bischoff earlier in Shane's place? You would have had one hell of an angle. You could have them announce that Eric had cought the company from under Vince's nose and now he was here to make Vince's life a living hell.........again. They could have played up the WCW beating the WWF before and now they're going to it again type angle....and with the right guys......it would have been HUGE.

 

Go back and watch the raw/nitro simulcast and see how Vince degrades his own company in wcw by stating he had the organization in the palm of his hands and he was shocked that they weren't performing in a barnyard or something to that nature. This is good heat if Vince had planned on making wcw separate, but he didn't. Imagine the opposite happening if Eric Bischoff bought the wwf and he showed up on raw and said those things. You can bet that wwf fans would slowly turn off, but at least see where things were going. You had Booker T and Scott Stiener in the last real wcw title match with Booker T going over. This is all well and good. They even had Ric Flair cut a wicked promo on the wwf and Vince Mcmahon defending the history of the nwa/wcw. Keep that in mind when a few months later Flair shows up in his hometown backing a "winner" in the wwf. Nonsensical. Vince forgot he now had two different fanbases to cater to. Yes, I know ratings and attendance was falling for wcw, but the fact of the matter was that wcw at one time was the #1 company and people did know about their existence. The wwe should have worked to generate interest back into wcw by giving its fanbase some hope.

 

I couldn't agree more with your statement here. It was easy to Vince to bury WCW.....hell, they didn't even need his help for that. Anybody could bury WCW simply based on it's horrible track record. But Vince COULD'VE gotten WCW over if he would have put some thought into it, instead of burying it every chance that he got.

 

Anyways, the finish of the simulcast with Shane proclaiming his wcw would kick Vince's ass like it did before. Now, I bring things to WM 17 where Shane Mcmahon vs. Vince Mcmahon happened. The hype of the wcw purchase was at its fever pitch right here and there should have been a stipulation about the future of the two companies. I know some might say this was too close to the purchase, but if I recall correctly in late February and early March Big Show did speak about Vince having something up his sleeve for the wrestling business which tells me the purchase thing was in the works for at least a month. The wwe legally through a court order also had the first rights to purchasing wcw from the legal problems wcw and wwf had over the Razor and Diesel gimmicks.

 

See, the stipulation should have been that if Shane wins then either RAW of SD became the WCW flagship show. Now I know they might have had a problem explaining to the networks they were on about this, but Vince is a great business man and I am sure he would have been able to work SOMETHING out. I mean, it would've made them and whatever networks millions to keep something like this going.

 

You see how we now have the two brands separate on different days? Vince and Shane Mcmahon should have fought over those television rights. Shane is also an owner of the wwf remember and would be realistic. The wwe started to stray from realism starting from the Survivor Series 2000 show. Anyways, Vince could have kept raw and Shane should have got wcw nitro for the thursday timeslot. That way the big hype of the future of nitro's heat would have transfered over. You separate the two entities and keep the fanbases separate. You want to make a big impact with star power? The wwe could have still used Austin with his heel turn in Texas, but make him turn on wwe fans and on Vince Mcmahon. Move Austin to wcw and nitro. That would give wcw a big boost. Austin would have a great explanation of not wanting to deal with the crap Vince was doing to him anymore and that wwe fans didn't deserve his services anymore since they didn't actually miss him while he was out.

 

The main problem I see here is simply the fact that Austin should have NEVER been near the WCW team. The problem was that they couldn't bring in enough big name WCW guys that people actually wanted to see.......until the angle was far gone in dead. Guys like Flair, Sting, Goldberg, Hogan etc. should have all been brought in immediately and then everything could have shifted to the younger guys once the angle grew and was established. But instead the angle went off terribly and to this day is probably the biggest fumble of something that was pretty much a guarantee to set the wrestling world afire.

 

 

 

You run things as normal and make things seem like par for the course to set up the big storm ahead. At the 2002 Royal Rumble you have the big guns come in as a surprise and advertise the lesser guys. I know the wwe was in talks with Hogan, Hall, and Nash before the Rumble because it was in the "dirtsheets". The wwe should have just got Goldberg here. You also save Ric Flair. Now, you bring Flair in as a bitter man and the hired bodyguard of Shane Mcmahon. You need Flair to represent wcw plain and simple. It should happen sooner actually, but I'm going off real time here. The nWo ruin the Royal Rumble and there is no winner who goes on to challenge the wwf champion. You make Hogan, Hall, and Nash cut a promo that is more vicious than the one they did at Bash at the Beach. I know this would piss off people for not having a finish to the Rumble, but I think the surprise return of the nWo would overshadow this and the group would have made a serious impact. Hogan, Hall, and Nash are pissed off at Vince Mcmahon and demand their bounty money that was promised for destroying wcw. Again, in early 2002 for some odd reason HBK was re-signed, but for whatever reasons people say he and Triple H had some kind of falling out and couldn't appear. Okay, we'll deal with that, but I would also have HBK appear in the nWo and proclaim the conspiracy that was set up by Vince Mcmahon to destroy "Billionaire" Ted.

 

I think you do have some good idea's here, but the fact of the matter is simple.....the nWo should have NEVER been brought back. WCW drove it so far into the ground that honestly, I don't think anyone wanted to see it again.

[iliketurtles 0]

The 2 facts that the WWF couldn't sign any of the major WCW players because they were all contraced to Time Warner (aka sitting on their ass and making money) AND that for years the WWF (aka Vince McMahon) had built themselves up as this great, power force that when these outsider federations came in...they had no chance and Vince refused to make WCW better than he was...which would of actually added intrest.

 

Credit enough to Vince, the ECW InVasion angle was gold...but they managed to screw that up with the merger of the two companies and bringing back Stephanie...later in the night.

 

Ah well.