The OAO Raw Thread - 7/26/04 - 60 Minute Iron Man

[what 0]

I've been saying this for a while: a win isn't a big deal unless it is presented as such. Benoit made HHH tap at WrestleMania. So? HHH remained the number one player on Raw, and got himself a rematch. Benoit beat HBK and HHH at Backlash. So? HHH remained the number one player on Raw, and HBK got a rematch. Benoit beat HBK in the rematch. So? HHH interfered and still remained the number one player on Raw, and Benoit wrestled Kane in a pointless match that was second on the card to HHH/HBK. Benoit beat Kane. So? HHH remained the number one player on Raw, and got himself another rematch. Benoit beat HHH there. So? He needed Eugene to beat up HHH to do it, and HHH remained the number one player on Raw and got himself another rematch. Benoit beat HHH in the iron man. So? Eugene again had to save Benoit and give him the win, and HHH will remain the number one player on Raw.

So basically, what you're saying is that you want Benoit (in spite of the fact that he has negative charisma) to be the focal point of Raw and for him to have squashed HHH.

[what 0]

When Austin was a top babyface did he need any help to win a world title match?

Benoit isn't Austin, FYI. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

[Guest JoeyStyles]

When Austin was a top babyface did he need any help to win a world title match?

Benoit isn't Austin, FYI. Comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges.

Then my question is: Why would the WWE put the strap around his waist if they truly don't want to push him as the top dog from RAW?

[Tawren 0]

So basically, what you're saying is that you want Benoit (in spite of the fact that he has negative charisma) to be the focal point of Raw and for him to have squashed HHH.

When has he been given the chance to be the man on Raw? Even as champ, it is still the HHH show. The champ should be the focal point, he should be given a chance, but instead we get shit like HHH only losing to...what's his name? that Canadian guy?...because a retard ran in.

[what 0]

Then my question is: Why would the WWE put the strap around his waist if they truly don't want to push him as the top dog from RAW?

They're trying to push new talent to the forefront which is a good idea. But in my opinion, Benoit just doesn't measure up with WWE face champions of the past. The shows can't be centered around Benoit because he has no charisma.

[Tawren 0]

Benoit has a different style than a way out there Rock or Austin. His intensity is his charisma, and that comes across very well when he is given the chance to show it.

[Guest JoeyStyles]

Then my question is: Why would the WWE put the strap around his waist if they truly don't want to push him as the top dog from RAW?

They're trying to push new talent to the forefront which is a good idea. But in my opinion, Benoit just doesn't measure up with WWE face champions of the past. The shows can't be centered around Benoit because he has no charisma.

Let's say it's true about Benoit not being "charismatic" enough to be the main dog on RAW, why not give the belt to more charismatic wrestlers like Jericho, Book or Van Dam? Or the only reason Benoit got the belt was b/c everybody knew he was "going to drop the ball" as a champion?

[what 0]

Then my question is: Why would the WWE put the strap around his waist if they truly don't want to push him as the top dog from RAW?

They're trying to push new talent to the forefront which is a good idea. But in my opinion, Benoit just doesn't measure up with WWE face champions of the past. The shows can't be centered around Benoit because he has no charisma.

Let's say it's true about Benoit not being "charismatic" enough to be the main dog on RAW, why not give the belt to more charismatic wrestlers like Jericho, Book or Van Dam? Or the only reason Benoit got the belt was b/c everybody knew he was "going to drop the ball" as a champion?

RVD, Booker and Jericho would've made better champions but they've all been long buried.

 

And Benoit hasn't dropped the ball as champion because he was never really given the ball. He's had a good reign though and has been made to look strong. He has the least charisma of any face champion in WWE history though and the WWE has had to book him differently because of that.

[Promoter 0]

Well, Benoit's push as champion is better than what the IWC thought it was going to be when he jumped. You know a token title victory in Edmonton and jobbing back the title to Triple H at Badd Blood.

[snuffbox 0]

Benoit has been champion since WrestleMania in March...has headlined nearly every show since then...got put over by tapout by HBK AND HHH, Hunter on numerous occasions....WHEN WILL THEY STOP BURYING HIM?!?!

[AndrewTS 0]

...has headlined nearly every show since then...

Except for all those Raws he was main eventing hour 1, or wasn't on the show barely at all.

 

He has the least charisma of any face champion in WWE history though and the WWE has had to book him differently because of that

 

Yeah, "differently." That's a good way to put it.

 

Then my question is: Why would the WWE put the strap around his waist if they truly don't want to push him as the top dog from RAW?

 

Benoit does really well on Pay Per View...but on Raw he's practically a non-entity. The booking is really schizo with him.

[Guest GreatOne]

Ah yes we still have our two or three people bitching (well I guess the Democrat Convention IS still going on) about Benoit "needing" Eugene nevermind he was being triple-teamed to all hell AFTER a freaking chairshot by Batista and 55 minutes of an Ironman match, cause faces should never "fight fire with fire" right?

 

(Sarcasmode on)

 

OMG, I just went back and watched "Rock the People's Champ" again. Hey Rock was getting KILLED by Bossman and Albert until Foley came out in that match. WEAK!!!!!!!

 

Or Foley needed Austin (and DX) to win the title nevermind Shamrock plastered him with the chair and all the Corporation was down there anyway. Who cares if it's the biggest mark-out moment in smarks' history? WEAK!!!!!!

 

Hey Austin needed Undertaker to be his enforcer at OTE 98, WEAK!!!!!!

 

(Sarcasmode off)

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

What was the last impression the WWE tried to impart on its fans?

 

Was it Benoit winning and proving his worth as champion or was it HHH being screwed by Eugene?

[Guest GreatOne]

What was the last impression the WWE tried to impart on its fans?

 

Was it Benoit winning and proving his worth as champion or was it HHH being screwed by Eugene?

As Benoit's music was playing? What we're supposed to follow the guy into the back now?

 

Example:

Smackdown 4/20/00: Jericho pins Rock after HHH interference, 'But listen, they're playing Triple H's music'--Michael Cole.

 

Oh and BTW, marks you know, notice, "the star" constantly losing, and as much as the same three people bitch about "Benoit needing a retard's help" he isn't the one getting beat down by Eugene either.

 

'OMG conspiracy theory Eugene gets his revenge on HHH for beatdown that won't end part 27756 from two weeks back, Benoit's being held down!!!!!!~~~~~~'

[iggymcfly 0]

Geez, if Benoit's getting buried now, I'd hate to see what people would have to say about The Rock back in 2000. He needed Austin to beat HHH at Backlash, lost his Ironman match to HHH even with Undertaker trying to help him, and then he only won the title back when he pinned Vince. I can't believe he ever got over with the way they treated him.

 

As for Benoit not getting as much TV time as HHH, it's not that he's treated as less important, it's just that he has a different gimmick. HHH is a big blowhard who is obsessively insecure, and "needs" the title so people will think he is important. Thus, he is costantly running off at the mouth about how he's the greatest, but he still can't beat Benoit one on one.

 

Meanwhile, Benoit is just a really intense, technically sound wrestler, who lets his actions do the talking. He's not going to cut a lot of long-winded promos about how great he is, but he always backs it up in the ring, making HHH, HBK, and Kane tap out whenever he really needs to. Not only does he beat all the best on Raw, he makes them all submit.

 

They've really given Benoit the god push since Royal Rumble, and it's worked out pretty well for them. Aside from Eugene's on again/off again reactions that stem from small snippets of great writing among the crap, Benoit really is the most over face on Raw. Jericho always gets the cult hero pop in Canada, but on their normal US shows, Benoit does get thee biggest pop of the night.

 

Oh, and one last thing for the smarks that are bitching out there. I challenge you to find any main event level feud in WWF/WWE history where one man beat another four major matches in a row. It just doesn't get that onesided in normal WWE feuds. The only thing approaching that kind of dominance would be something like Undertaker vs. The FBI.

[Guest bigm350]

I'm looking at it realistically. HHH is a McMahon now. He probably has free rein over everything he does in storylines, yet he has jobbed to Benoit 3 times. Once cleanly, and the two other times with interference by Eugene. I, like alot of others, thought Benoit would hold the belt until Bad Blood at the latest. Yes, I still think that HHH is the main focus on Raw, but I'm not complaining that Benoit is still champ either.

[pochorenella 0]

Call me old school but a top babyface is the one that beats all the odds without any help or outside interference against the dastardly heel.

When Austin was a top babyface did he need any help to win a world title match?

When HHH was the so called top babyface back in 2002, did he need any help to beat Jericho for the WWF title at WM?

Ummm, yeah he did. Austin needed a face-turned Mike Tyson and a super-fast three count to beat HBK at WMXIV. He needed Vince and 8 gazillion chairshots to beat The Rock at WMX-7 (and don't give me any "he was a heel" crap. He was a FACE.) He needed Foley as special ref at WMXV.

 

Mick Foley needed Austin and all of DX to beat the Rock for his first Title. The Rock himself was aided several times, as covered by another poster here.

 

Triple H's face Title run lasted all of a single month (maybe a few days less than that) so that's irrelevant, it was just one win. Benoit needed no help at WMXX or at Backlash or at Bad Blood, so that's three times as much as HHH's "face run."

 

So please people, stop your bitching.

[snuffbox 0]

I mentioned earlier that wrestling has used 'run-ins' since the 60s...theres always been managers and stables and partners to interfere...

 

But the kiddies here think its an invention of HHH.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I guess benoit should have been able to fight off all of Evolution on his own. That would have been far, far, better. Because God knows having monster heels lose more than half the time since Mania isn't bad enough, let's let them get run over by a snaggletooth midget.

[Downhome 0]

I have no problem with Eugene helping Benoit, I expected it...because while watching TV, he needed help with the three men beating him up. MY problem is the fact that Benoit is out, Eugene runs in, and dismantles Evolution all by himself, knocks HHH out, all while Benoit is laid out. All Benoit is given to do is slowly crawl over to the now knocked out HHH, and put his arm on him.

 

I'm all for heels being booked like that, but I've always been against it when it's done for faces, including the time it happened to Foley when Austin basicly placed Foley on the champ at the time.

 

When a face needs help like that, instead of them just crawling over for the win, I just would rather them stand up for a second, and do someone to the heel and then pin them. Have it be Foley putting his claw or double arm DDT to use, or Benoit going to the top rope and putting HHH "away" with his diving headbut.

 

Like I said though, it's fine to see a heel need all the help in the world, and then be placed on the face for the win without doing anything. For a face though, it just doesn't work in my eyes.

[AndrewTS 0]

Because God knows having monster heels lose more than half the time since Mania isn't bad enough, let's let them get run over by a snaggletooth midget.

Or a retard, whatever works.

[Guest Anglesault]

I guess benoit should have been able to fight off all of Evolution on his own. That would have been far, far, better. Because God knows having monster heels lose more than half the time since Mania isn't bad enough, let's let them get run over by a snaggletooth midget.

I really don't care that Eugene ran in. It might have been better if Eugene ran in and took out Evolution, allowing Benoit to beat HHH, or for Benoit to have at least hit the headbut after the chairshot to HHH.

 

Eitherway, I'm not as offended as others.

[Guest GreatOne]

Geez, if Benoit's getting buried now, I'd hate to see what people would have to say about The Rock back in 2000. He needed Austin to beat HHH at Backlash, lost his Ironman match to HHH even with Undertaker trying to help him, and then he only won the title back when he pinned Vince. I can't believe he ever got over with the way they treated him.

Or how about we go on? Rock would have lost the title to none else than CHRIS BENOIT twice if not for Commissioner Foley, although the first 'title can change hands on a DQ ' thing was retarded in all honesty.

 

As for Benoit not getting as much TV time as HHH, it's not that he's treated as less important, it's just that he has a different gimmick. HHH is a big blowhard who is obsessively insecure, and "needs" the title so people will think he is important. Thus, he is costantly running off at the mouth about how he's the greatest, but he still can't beat Benoit one on one.

 

Meanwhile, Benoit is just a really intense, technically sound wrestler, who lets his actions do the talking. He's not going to cut a lot of long-winded promos about how great he is, but he always backs it up in the ring, making HHH, HBK, and Kane tap out whenever he really needs to. Not only does he beat all the best on Raw, he makes them all submit.

 

This is my favorite argument. Quality over quantity as I call it. It's like arguing Band X as a better band than Band Y because they sell 10 million albums, so freakin what?

 

I'm watching RAW with a bunch of marks two years ago, now they aren't all the way marks like PWI-mag and pretty much know how the biz goes (afternoon lunch conversation at work a few years back 'Why'd they put the belts on Road Kill and Dumb Ass?' as opposed to 'I can't believe DX helped them win the belts and get away with it'), but they don't get all into it like on boards. HHH wins the undisputed title? 'LAME', Hogan wins it, 'LAME', so they around who would be better champs. Who else but CHRIS BENOIT.

 

Bottom line: The marks, or the non-smart marks as you might call them in this case, know about Benoit, and they might see HHH getting all the time, but they also see who's got the belt and who wins when it all comes down. I guess I'm not really against Orton as champ then for this very reason, just that it's too soon.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

No, but I can't wait for the cries of outrage when Benoit drops the belt to Orton

 

I'm in awe of EPD's clairvoyance. He posted that here after Wrestlemania XX

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

As for Benoit not getting as much TV time as HHH, it's not that he's treated as less important, it's just that he has a different gimmick.

 

Yeah, that's it. The camera and the announcers going on and on about Eugene and HHH and completely forgetting about Benoit's supposed "big win" relates to their gimmicks. Benoit's last (coughONLY) non-HHH feud (Kane) getting horrible billing and playing second fiddle to LITA is gimmicks. Benoit never being the central focus of the show while HHH is always the focus is because of their gimmicks.

 

Here's a gimmick for you....

 

WORLD CHAMPION.

 

This board is fucking retarded.

 

The run-in isn't my problem (well, it is *a* problem. It completely made the last 50 minutes worthless. What people don't get about run-ins is that it leaves a question about the match - in building a feud, this can be a good thing. The Ironman match wasn't building HHH/Benoit, it was blowing it off. There is no sense of finality when there's a run-in because typically the run ins "leave something open".), the problem is how that run-in totally shifted the focus AWAY from Benoit and ON TO Eugene and HHH. The winner of the match - the guy who busted his ass for 60 minutes and has been working house show after house show like a fucking champ should - still has to take a seat and let the HHH get his glory-time. It was fucking blatent on RAW that I would have thought people (95% of this board, it seems) would have gotten the message that "Benoit is champ" means nothing because it's presented as nothing. But here we are, Benoit is still insignificant and people couldn't be happier. Motherfucks.

[Guest Loss]

When Benoit loses the title, do you still expect him to be treated like a top guy? Or do you expect him to follow the route of Jericho? The answer to that question should tell you everything you need to know.

 

Benoit is not being groomed for a permanent main event spot -- he's merely being pushed as a guy currently in main events.

Edited July 29, 2004 by Loss

[Guest GreatOne]

Somebody needs a ba-ba...............

 

The camera and the announcers going on and on about Eugene and HHH and completely forgetting about Benoit's supposed "big win" relates to their gimmicks.

 

Yeah because Benoit had already, you know, taken care of business. Yeah let's get

a motorcade and follow him back to the lockerroom or have a big WM-type celebration (sans Eddie) again!

 

Benoit's last (coughONLY) non-HHH feud (Kane) getting horrible billing and playing second fiddle to LITA is gimmicks

 

When'd that happen, you mean when Kane got all pissy after he lost to Benoit, chokeslammed him, was about to choke Lita out and Benoit comes back and nails him with the belt? Yeah what a non-factor.

 

 

This board is fucking retarded

 

And you still post here...........

 

it leaves a question about the match

 

And what would that be? That Benoit can't beat HHH? We've seen it what, three times now? And HHH has beaten Benoit exactly HOW many times?

 

Hey Ric Flair never beat Lex Luger without heel cheating either, does the question still linger 16 years later?

 

the problem is how that run-in totally shifted the focus AWAY from Benoit and ON TO Eugene and HHH

 

And the world title match with Benoit and Orton at Summerslam. Let's see, Benoit glared at the defeated HHH, nodded at Eugene, and left. Yeah looked like a chump to me.

 

 

let the HHH get his glory-time.

 

And how exactly was THE HHH getting his "glory-time", lying in defeat after being beaten down by Eugene, looking like he was swallowing cum in the process? Some glory...........

 

 

It was fucking blatent on RAW that I would have thought people (95% of this board, it seems) would have gotten the message that "Benoit is champ" means nothing because it's presented as nothing. But here we are, Benoit is still insignificant and people couldn't be happier. Motherfucks.

 

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA, did your parents use you as a sex sandwich as a child as well? That might explain the frustration.

[what 0]

When Benoit loses the title, do you still expect him to be treated like a top guy? Or do you expect him to follow the route of Jericho? The answer to that question should tell you everything you need to know.

He'll still be in the main event picture after he loses to Orton or whoever else. You don't give a guy a huge push and a strong world title reign to not elevate him to the Main Event picture.

[Promoter 0]

Look at it this way. The last man to win a title at WrestleMania and hold it even up to SummerSlam was Steve Austin in 2001. That's pretty good company and I can't even really remember Austin having any great title defenses until the defense against Kurt Angle at SummerSlam. However, there was one exception and it was CHRIS BENOIT.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Austin was the focus of the shows, though. He was an integral part to the storylines and show. If Benoit missed a Raw or two, would it even matter?