The OAO Raw Thread - 7/26/04 - 60 Minute Iron Man

[CanadianChick 0]

On the other side we have former smark darling Test who was put in a great storyline (pre-HHH) and had a chance for the ultimate revenge, instead he comes out playing I, ROBOT (Tri-ple-H-take-Steph-a-nie-ME-MAD!)

 

Test was a smark darling?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

There are groups of people who have said in the past that Benoit would either never be champion or be a bad champion because he lacked the character, charisma, and promo skilled needed for the position. I think his character is strong, that his charisma is unique, and that his promos are good enough to carry the load. Does that mean he's the Rock? No. He doesn't have to be - he can be Chris Benoit. The WWE, however, isn't giving him a real chance at becoming a great champ - to live up to that potential. They "protect" him by not giving him those bigtime promos, or putting the focus on him where his personality and character would have to sustain fan interest. In that way, they've set him up for mediocrity.

 

Anyways. I'll throw out some other stuff...

 

Even if I were to agree that Benoit doesn't have charisma to carry the show (which I obviously don't); if Benoit - the champ - can't be the focus of the show, then _no one_ should, because it devalues the importance of being champ. At the very least, he should be HHH's equal in terms of value and presense on the show; he isn't close. You don't hear the announcers speculate and ponder Benoits next move or talk about him over other wrestlers matches like they do with HHH. He isn't on your mind unless he's on screen, and even then he'll probably be in the background or attention would be drawn away from him.

 

Charisma is something that attracts ones attention and devotion - Benoit has proven in the past that he can elicit large reaction and support in several different promotions. The whole point of having charisma is to captivate the masses and Benoit can do that and has done that. However, since he isn't treated as a superstar and doesn't get the focus he needs, he has to rebuild that support in each and every match. They have not done a _single thing_ to give him a mystique. There are several high points that Benoit has that they could play and the fans would buy.

 

- "Benoit the everyman/fan/journeyman" - not blessed with physical gifts (size, a "cover boy looks"), Benoit made up for it through hard-work and never giving up. They showed this with Austin @ WM 13 and capitalized on it. They had the same thing with Lesnar/Benoit (a _much_ superior program that got killed off because of Benoit-on-Raw) and they never went back to it. ... Benoit was a childhood fan who had a personal connection with the Dynamite Kid - I honestly can't believe they never used this to give depth to Benoits character. It is one of my favourite things about Benoit and helps me relate to him beyond the ring and shows why he does what he does. Dynamite being in a wheelchair because of the moves he did and Benoit doing the same ones gives some drama to Benoit in the ring and provides him with motivation - his body could go at any minute, but rather than play it safe, he burns twice as bright; even if it means lasting half as long. That provides some risk, it raises some eyebrows and puts more emphasis on what he does in the ring (and why). The journeyman aspect is in regards to respect from his peers. This is a guy who became successful on his own terms and did it in a way he could be proud of. He is proof you don't have to sleep your way to the top or stab friends in the back to become successful. How much "respect" has Benoit been given by other wrestlers outside Eddie Guerrero? I can think of one time - Albert betting on him vs. Lesnar (for anyone who says I can't enjoy anything; I brought this up in a positive light twice...) Bret Hart had the entire (Face) roster out for him at WM X and it can be as simple as wrestlers circling around the ring making sure no one interferes in a benoit match, or just wanting to watch someone of his calibre wrestle, or asking him to help train them. All of this doesn't need 20 minute promos to develop them nor does it put all the pressure on Benoits "charisma" to carry it - but it does make him appear important.

 

- Benoits stiffness. This can be connected with above, but it should have its own section because it's a trademark of his. If they banned his chops/crossface, or had wrestlers protesting matches against him, it would give him a "danger" vibe.

 

Bisch: What do you mean you don't want to face Benoit?! If you beat him, you could get a shot at his title. You'd be made!

 

Wrestler X: I know, but I've heard things about him. I've seen what he can do. He's broken guys' necks and arms and backs. He's the crippler! Besides, you can't keep that guy down. He keeps coming back for more.

 

*later*

 

Bisch: I can't find anyone willing to face Benoit! This is horrible for business. I can't find a single challenger willing to fight him. I need to do something...

 

And you can take this several different ways and stretch it out and the guys who _are_ willing to face Benoit can get a rub from it. This way, fans can really notice that "benoit hits hard" and it plays up his submissions and it shows his work ethic- which are his 3 in-ring strong points and seperates him from the rest of the roster. It's also another reason (s) why he's one of my favourite wrestlers.

 

In terms of promo work, Benoit is more than able to carry the load. Promos -on a ME level- are meant to (i)get across character, (ii)get across motivation, (iii)sell a match. They are not meant for "entertainment", because that doesn't do (iii). It's a nice addition if one can provide an entertaining promo, but it is not necessary. Benoit can do all 3 and has. Could he sustain an audience for 20 minutes? No way. Could he for 10+? Probably not. 5-10? Damn right he could. I don't think he's been given a 5 minute promo yet, let alone anything over it. His words are clear, he doesn't jumble it up with any unnecessary points and is generally pretty smooth, and his timing is fine. His voice, in particular, is a strong point because it's just a notch below Hannibal Lector in its cold-and-preciseness.

[Guest Brian]

Since when are Rock and Austin the rule rather than the exception?

[Guest GreatOne]

Since when are Rock and Austin the rule rather than the exception?

Since everybody's on the 'Benoit just isn't charismatic enough' kick (nevermind that Bret wasn't until Austin came along either) that's since when.

 

We're also talking about, oh the two biggest guys in the history of the company not named Hogan. So yeah there's a pretty good reason to bring them up.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Um, Bret had plenty of charisma during his run as champion, IMO. And in a lot of cases, it was his cocky yet confident "straight to your face" type gimmick that helped add to his feuds with "whiny" or braggard type characters (Owen, heel HBK, Diesel, Backlund, Lawler).

 

If anything, Bret's "acting" and charisma lessened during the feud with Austin. He went from natural emotions the crowd could relate to ("I don't like Michaels and his pretty-boy, Luchador-style. I can BEAT HIM." or "My little brother Owen is a pest. I'm gonna hurt you, Owen.") to "Wah! Canada rules! U.S. sucks!"

 

Bret's "character" during the whole U.S./Canada thing was made stronger by Austin's huge popularity. IMO, it was a lame gimmick. Canada/U.S. feud? Uhhh....oookkk....

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Well this is funny...

 

(Raw Preview)

 

SPECIAL REVENGE?

Aug. 2, 2004

 

For months, Triple H tried to bring the World Heavyweight Championship back to Evolution. Last week, it seemed as though the prestigious title was just minutes from coming back to the faction. Enter Eugene. The special Superstar spoiled Triple H's plans of becoming World Heavyweight Champion by interfering at the end of the epic 60-minute Iron Man Match. Undoubtedly, The Game will be looking for Eugene this week on Monday Night RAW.

 

While Triple H may have been unsuccessful in bring the gold back to Evolution, it appears as though somebody else will be picking up where he left off. Last week, Randy Orton won a grueling Battle Royal to earn the right to face the World Heavyweight Champion at SummerSlam. With just weeks before the August pay-per-view, will Evolution and Orton have something planned to ensure the title comes to them this time? Tune in to Monday Night RAW this week at 9/8 CT on Spike TV.

 

References:

HHH = 4

Eugene = 2

Orton = 2

World Title = 5

Evolution = 3

Benoit = 0

 

... and by "Funny", I mean "more proof showing how they make Benoit irrelevant".

[what 0]

Since everybody's on the 'Benoit just isn't charismatic enough' kick (nevermind that Bret wasn't until Austin came along either) that's since when.

Bret was FAR more charismatic than Benoit is currently. Bret was underrated on the mic as a face.

[Guest GreatOne]

Um, Bret had plenty of charisma during his run as champion, IMO. And in a lot of cases, it was his cocky yet confident "straight to your face" type gimmick that helped add to his feuds with "whiny" or braggard type characters (Owen, heel HBK, Diesel, Backlund, Lawler).

 

You could make the same argument for Benoit actually.

 

References:

HHH = 4

Eugene = 2

Orton = 2

World Title = 5

Evolution = 3

Benoit = 0

 

And yet the world title that Benoit holds is mentioned five times (six counting the IM match). Besides I doubt I've heard 'Originally from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada now residing in Atlanta, Georgia.....the World Heavyweight Champion!!!!!!!!!!' and just stop there.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Hate to bring up a dead issue, but remember when certain people were bitching that Austin never needed help?

 

Over The Edge 1998. He needed the Undertaker's help twice to win.

 

Checkmate.

[Guest JoeyStyles]

I don't recall Taker chokeslaming Dude Love so Austin could pin him for the WWF title.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

I don't recall Taker chokeslaming Dude Love so Austin could pin him for the WWF title.

He broke up two pins for Austin and Dude stopped the Mandible Claw to see what was going on.

 

So, no, HE DID MORE.

[Guest JoeyStyles]

Well here I thought Austin stunned Dude Love for the one...two...three without Taker's help at the ending of the match, where it counts.

[Guest TheZsaszHorsemen]

Well here I thought Austin stunned Dude Love for the one...two...three without Taker's help at the ending of the match, where it counts.

But he needed Undertaker to break up two pinfalls, cause Mick to break his finisher, and provide necessary distraction to set up the finisher.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

And yet the world title that Benoit holds is mentioned five times (six counting the IM match). Besides I doubt I've heard 'Originally from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada now residing in Atlanta, Georgia.....the World Heavyweight Champion!!!!!!!!!!' and just stop there.

 

That's one of the points I was making. Benoit is never mentioned, yet the title is. In all those 5 mentions he was never brought up once. They never said that Chris Benoit beat HHH or that Orton would face Benoit. It's taking the focus off of Benoit and putting it on Evolution (as a group were mentioned *9* times) and their goal for the title. Anyone could have been holding the belt with this paragraph because it wasn't about the title holders - it was about HHH and Orton and Eugene.

[brighty 0]

Austin was the focus of the shows, though. He was an integral part to the storylines and show. If Benoit missed a Raw or two, would it even matter?

yeah, that great push where he was buying cowboy hats for Kurt Angle and playing guitar. that just screams "big time champion" doesn't it?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

No, but it does scream out "superstar".

[brighty 0]

1. The WWE writing team obviously hasn't been paying attention to Benoit's reign as they've repeated an idea (and not just a small detail either).

that's not exclusive to Chris Benoit matches - the WWE writing team repeat booking ideas ALL the time though, and in main events too.

 

hell, on SmackDown last year, within the space of 4 months or so we had Angle v. Lesnar set up by Lesnar attacking Angle while he was the referee in a Kurt Angle match. then we had Eddy v. Angle set up by Angle attacking Eddy while he was the referee in an Eddy Guerrero match.

[Guest Loss]

'Taker's interference was to set up an Austin/Taker program down the line. The interference of people like HHH and Eugene in Benoit's big matches is to set up programs for HHH. There would be much less of a problem with some of the interference if it was done to get something involving Benoit over, but that has yet to be the case. Even once.

[brighty 0]

Well this is funny...

 

(Raw Preview)

 

SPECIAL REVENGE?

Aug. 2, 2004

 

For months, Triple H tried to bring the World Heavyweight Championship back to Evolution. Last week, it seemed as though the prestigious title was just minutes from coming back to the faction. Enter Eugene. The special Superstar spoiled Triple H's plans of becoming World Heavyweight Champion by interfering at the end of the epic 60-minute Iron Man Match. Undoubtedly, The Game will be looking for Eugene this week on Monday Night RAW.

 

While Triple H may have been unsuccessful in bring the gold back to Evolution, it appears as though somebody else will be picking up where he left off. Last week, Randy Orton won a grueling Battle Royal to earn the right to face the World Heavyweight Champion at SummerSlam. With just weeks before the August pay-per-view, will Evolution and Orton have something planned to ensure the title comes to them this time? Tune in to Monday Night RAW this week at 9/8 CT on Spike TV.

 

References:

HHH = 4

Eugene = 2

Orton = 2

World Title = 5

Evolution = 3

Benoit = 0

 

... and by "Funny", I mean "more proof showing how they make Benoit irrelevant".

OMG he's not mentioned on WWE.com - BURIAL! BURIAL! BURIAL!

 

lets see what he does on the actual TV show rather than some internet site preview of the TV show.

 

i'd guess some match (maybe a tag) with some Orton interaction, and JR going nuts about how benoit made HHH tap out twice, and he beat The Game in an Iron Man. (and in storyline purposes, a win over HHH now is as big as a win over Hogan would've been in the 80s/early 90s).

[Guest Loss]

lets see what he does on the actual TV show rather than some internet site preview of the TV show.

 

i'd guess some match (maybe a tag) with some Orton interaction, and JR going nuts about how benoit made HHH tap out twice, and he beat The Game in an Iron Man. (and in storyline purposes, a win over HHH now is as big as a win over Hogan would've been in the 80s/early 90s).

Yeah, let's. Because all he's done so far since winning the belt is win a bunch of matches. Big deal.

 

No, I'm not being sarcastic. That's ALL he's done. It's not about credibility with Benoit anymore, it's about focus and importance.

 

The dynamic of the show would totally different without HHH. It would be the exact same with or without Benoit. That's bad booking.

 

A "win" over HHH only means something if it shoves HHH down the card and cuts his TV time in half, and he's not treated as quite the player he was before the loss. It has to affect him for it to carry any weight.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Benoit is _consistantly_ ignored on WWE.com RAW previews. The Previews *are* important because they contain what the company wants to get over the most.

 

JR didn't even go nuts *after* the match and was too busy focusing on Eugene screwing HHH, so I doubt he'd give it enough attention tonight. Rather, it'll be "Orton is going to face Benoit. I wonder what would happen with HHH if Orton were to win the title?" and "HHH must be furious with Eugene costing him the World Title."

 

And it's not exclusive to Benoit, but it's still stupid and shouldn't happen. His only two contenders outside of HHH/HBK were just shot up cheaply through a battle royale - which was the whole point that you conveniently left out - while the instance you cited

 

Dvon and Test and the Brooklyn Brawler/Taka/Funaki, beat HHH while HHH was "on top" in "Hogan" form. Those wins did _nothing_ for them because they stayed where they were while HHH remained on top. HHH didn't "lose" anything from those losses and hasn't lost anything from the Ironman match because he is *still* the focus, as evidenced by this preview and how he was mentioned constantly, by Rosses treatment, and with how they present Benoit.

[Guest GreatOne]

Yeah that HHH was just all over RAW tonight wasn't he? Yeah spassing out on a glorified jobber and smiling over getting a match with EUGENE. Yeah that just screams HHHOGAN to me...........

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

God you're stupid.

 

1. The Hogan reference wasn't brought up by me. So I don't know what you're doing bringing that up. However, HHH was still the most important man on the show tonight. I can't imagine anyone seeing any different... unless that "anyone" is you. Then I can't imagine what world you live in, because you're seeing something that simply isn't there.

 

2. HHH was all over the first half of RAW and was brought up plenty of times in the second-half. The most memorable thing about the show... what was it??

 

3. HHH got the most heat on the show from beating up Regal - they pulled nearly every trick in the book in doing so. Blood, Gimmicks, Refs, a Stretcher, tons time for crowd pandering, and -of course- the tipping over of the stretcher.

[Guest GreatOne]

Then I can't imagine what world you live in, because you're seeing something that simply isn't there.

 

Hi kettle this is pot, gee you're black today!!!!!!!!!

 

The most memorable thing about the show

 

Last week, the IM gets the mentions all throughout and you're bitching about HHH being in the final shot. This week who's the final shot? not HHH but Randy Orton.

 

HHH got the most heat on the show from beating up Regal - they pulled nearly every trick in the book in doing so

 

And? He beat up a GLORIFIED JOBBER. Who cares? Do you honestly think anyone is paying to see HHH vs. EUGENE (as opposed to say Benoit vs. Orton) at Summerslam?

 

Ah it's Monday night, cue the wHHHining....................

[Guest wildpegasus]

I was talking to my younger brother tonight and the quotes he was saying summed up the HHH situation on Raw and how he's portrayed just so perfectly. This is from a "newbie" and someone who doesn't have too much interest in stuff like conspiracy theories. It was just something he picked up that quickly.

 

For any HHH defenders do you just do it for the fun of it? I mean it's just so blantantly obvious the byism the whole WWE has towards HHH.

[slimm44 0]

I wasnt really into tonites show. How many times are we going to see the canadians against evolution in a main event? Split them up, we've seen these tag matches way too many times. The only thig I did like was Triple H ripping Regal apart. Although I did like the opening segment. William Regal has some good promos.

[Guest GreatOne]

I know I joined RAW late but someone's gonna have to refresh my memory, so what HHH took up about 40 minutes of the 20 that I missed?

 

You know I was merely reading at the Delphi forums at the time but I don't recall too many people decrying the fact that HHH was about the fifth or sixth most important star during his first title run.

[Promoter 0]

Tonight's show focus was about Orton getting a win over Benoit(to probably make a point that he is ready for the main event spot beating the champ) and Triple H's revenge on Eugene(hell I can't argue about the show really being about this when the preview section for TSN on the dial read "How will Triple H handle Eugene". There's the story arc for the broadcast which is lame when the Canadian Crippler is the main event of the night. As for the Canadians teaming up I think they are setting up Edge turning on Benoit and Jericho.

[Guest GreatOne]

One more thing I didn't get to last night for the "ConspirHHHacy crowd". Has it occurred to you that HHH is facing a COMEDY WRESTLER? So of course he's going to have to do something drastic that, god forbid, takes some time.

 

Think back, Rock vs. Billy Gunn.................

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

You just aren't getting it.

 

HHH can have all the time he fucking wants AS LONG AS Benoit is at equal or greater importance on the show because HE IS THE CHAMPION. If he isn't presented as the most important thing, then what does the title mean and what does he mean to the company? All this title reign is doing for Benoit is (a)putting out a DVD and (b)keeping him from doing repetitive tag matches in the midcard and putting over younger wrestlers...

 

...

 

lemme fix this..

 

All this title reign is doing for Benoit is (a)putting out a DVD and(b)keeping him from doing tag matches in the midcard and putting over younger wrestlers

 

... Just the DVD. Which is good. Which I love. Which I thank the WWE for from the bottom of my heart. Good job on that.

 

The Ironman LED UP TO Eugene screwing HHH. The whole match was based around that run in because everything else was completely uneventful. It was the most memorable thing on the show. "Final Shots" = "Last Impressions", which tend to be "the thing the WWE wants the fans thinking about" but the last impression gets negated if there is something on the show that overwhelmingly is more memorable.

 

Regals win/loss record has very little to do with anything because for the past few months he's been getting over with the crowd with his interactions with Eugene. I, personally, love his character and the fans do too. It's something different. Plus, Regal is one of the top 3 actors on the show and his promo totally hyped the crowd before he got beaten down.

 

"And", the status of whomever he beats down with the formula doesn't matter*, because the formula is guaranteed to get heat.

 

 

(*Generally. Rare exceptions could be provided, but I can't think of any)