I hate Toronto

[Promoter 0]

I didn't know JR and King were calling us in the audience idiots on the ppv show? Come on now! We paid their salary for the bonuses for ppv shows sunday night. Making fun of your audience is not too much of a smart business move. Doing this only makes things get worse for the next time they tour here. Yeah, I think they are laughing all the way to the bank with that sell out crowd which some paid up to $500 for ringside scalper tickets(yes, people forget that there were fans that came worldwide to this event too). I think they have forgotten or don't care about the crowd response today. Vince has booked Canada as heels and a heel country since 1997. Anyways, I don't think it had anything to do with raw's audience, so why is there still be a big deal about this?

[dubq 0]

It's disrespectful to do a motherfucking WAVE During a god damn match. Try thinking at the point of view of a wrestler. Would you fucking appreciate it? Fuck no you wouldn't. If you don't understand THAT you are a bigger idiot than I thought you were.

Right pal. I'm not the one getting uptight over a crowd reaction [the wave] that's happened thousands of times in pretty much every other arena sport for various reasons... so why the fuck not wrestling?

 

..and if a wrestler doesn't appreciate it - boo fucking hoo. They're getting paid out of OUR pockets.

 

Get the fuck over it, or get the fuck lost.

[NYU 0]

People make tons of points dissecting your arguments and that's all you come back with? Damn.

 

Oh, no. I just don't have the ample time to deal with every single argument that people have thrown back at me. It's good that some of us do, however.

 

What's your point? Taker v. Bradshaw was a poorly booked rushed feud that had two people fighting that the crowd DID NOT want to see. So they decided to amuse themselves. And did the wave.

 

It doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculously disrespectful. I can hardly be considered a fan of either Bradshaw or The Undertaker, but I have no problem seeing that they should at least have the courtesy of being paid attention to in their Championship match. Neither of those two men are responsible for the storyline. Neither of those two men are responsible for the very fact that they've been booked to face each other at SummerSlam. But somehow - it's THEIR fault? THEY'RE deserving of getting shit all over?

 

Both those guys actually showed some solid effort in their match. Taker tried to show off some new submission skills - skills that some around here were going absolutely apeshit over. JBL did one of the best bumping jobs I've ever seen him do. They threw in interesting false finishes, entertaining ending sequences....and what? The fans didn't even bother to pay attention. This wasn't the Goldberg/Lesnar situation. Those two guys were ditching WWE for their own reasons - reasons that had to do with NOT liking professional wrestling. Fans knew it. So they responded. To make the situation worse, Goldberg and Lesnar decided to wrestle an increasingly sluggish match, which seemed to deserve the criticisms of the fans.

 

Taker and JBL did not do the same here. They've both been very loyal to the company, they both tried hard to put on a good match - they both deserved the common courtesy for people to pay attention without chanting "BORING!" or doing the fucking wave.

 

You're still not making a lick of sense. Was the crowd 'dreadful' during the 6-man or Kane v. Hardy?

 

Besides the London ropeflip in the Six-Man and the Top-Rope Chokeslam in Kane/Hardy, they stayed incredibly quiet throughout both of those matches. There was some hard work going on in the Six-Man, an intricate storyline placed in front of the Kane/Hardy match - and people relished the opportunity to sit on their hands. To me, that's pretty dreadful behavior.

 

And they were hot during the 3-way- they just cheered one face over the other. (Well according to you every face got booed- but whatever)

 

Well, Bob, congratulations. You've managed to distort my words in a pretty respectable way. I never said they weren't loud for the Three-Way. And I never said EVERY face got booed. I said nearly every face was booed and, if you would take your fingers out of your ears, you would see that's true. If they weren't booed, then everyone stayed quiet for them instead.

 

What an amazing crowd.

 

Should Toronto have cheered Eugene because they were told to? The crowd didn't like him so they booed him. Should they just go along with what Vince says and cheer who he says to cheer?

 

The mentality of the Toronto crowd against Eugene would mean so much more if they hadn't pulled the same shit all night.

 

It's also interesting to me that the crowd was solidly against Eugene at the beginning of the match, but continued to pop for the Rock-Bottom, Stunner, Legdrop....until Eugene wound up receiving quite the mixed reaction at the end. If they were so against the character of Eugene, why did many of them wind up cheering him at the end? Surely, these respectable Canadians knew what they liked. Why on earth would they then cheer the same guy that they had vociferously booed at the beginning of the match?

 

The sheep mentality - "Hey, I'm gonna boo this guy because those guys over there are doing the same thing! That's so cool" - played a HUGE part here. For many people there, it had nothing to do with cheering for who they liked, and booing who they disliked. It had to do with trying to look cool and seem smart, compared to all the other "idiots" that respond sensically.

 

And they're getting called out on it by idiots who don't seem to like the fact that a bunch of fans at a wrestling show they PAID to see decided to have fun when the product they paid to see was not providing it.

 

Whoa! Watch those hardcore comments! This isn't the "Saturday Night Live Review" thread! Nobody just insulted Norm McDonald! Hold on there, buddy, before you start throwing out insults that you don't mean.

 

Just as a heads up, it may be smart to stop throwing out the term "idiot" to people that don't deserve it. I certainly don't think I'm an "idiot." And I don't think many of the people here calling out the Toronto crowd for their actions are "idiots." But I do think it's idiotic that someone is using the term because others have dared argue against his points, trying to establish the idea that sometimes - JUST SOMETIMES - it wouldn't be horrible to show some fucking respect to two guys working hard in the wrestling ring.

[NYU 0]

It's disrespectful to do a motherfucking WAVE During a god damn match. Try thinking at the point of view of a wrestler. Would you fucking appreciate it? Fuck no you wouldn't. If you don't understand THAT you are a bigger idiot than I thought you were.

Right pal. I'm not the one getting uptight over a crowd reaction [the wave] that's happened thousands of times in pretty much every other arena sport for various reasons... so why the fuck not wrestling?

 

..and if a wrestler doesn't appreciate it - boo fucking hoo.

 

They're getting paid out of OUR pockets.

 

Get the fuck over it, or get the fuck lost.

What an absolutely horrible point.

 

In every other professional sport - count them. Baseball. Football. Basketball. Hockey. Soccer. Etc. - the main point is NOT to entertain the people. The main goal is to win the game. It's to get that big hit. To sink that final Three-Pointer. These sports are REAL, and the players have no vested interest in whether or not the fans are interested. So, if it takes Barry Bonds stalling at the plate for a few minutes to try to hit that homerun, it's no big deal. He wants to win the game. He couldn't care whether or not the fans are entertained - that's not his job. To pass these minutes of stalling, the fans start doing the Wave to enjoy themselves. It doesn't bother anybody. Nobody cares.

 

Now, in wrestling, it's a completely different story. The main goal is to entertain the fans. It's to plan out that certain match to get the crowd emotionally involved. They crave to hear the fans give them a reaction or, at least, have their full attention. Now, when people start doing the Wave, that's completely disrespectful to the guys who have entire careers resting on how the fans respond to them.

 

Taker and JBL didn't throw a horrible match out there. They didn't deserve to get that kind of treatment. They showed effort. They tried to get the crowd involved. And they got the Wave in return.

 

Just to further hit home the point:

 

Baseball is real. The fans aren't involved. Wrestling is fake. The fans are HIGHLY involved.

 

It's asinine to think that there's no difference in the action of doing the "Wave" when it comes to contested sports and professional wrestling.

 

They're getting paid out of OUR pockets.

 

Get the fuck over it, or get the fuck lost.

 

Well, not nearly as asinine as that....

[bob_barron 0]

It doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculously disrespectful. I can hardly be considered a fan of either Bradshaw or The Undertaker, but I have no problem seeing that they should at least have the courtesy of being paid attention to in their Championship match. Neither of those two men are responsible for the storyline. Neither of those two men are responsible for the very fact that they've been booked to face each other at SummerSlam. But somehow - it's THEIR fault? THEY'RE deserving of getting shit all over?

 

It's well known Undertaker has a lot of influence with Vince McMahon due to the fact that he's been in the company for 14 years. Apparently he was the one who put on the kibosh on whether he should be a tweener after he killed a guy and had himself be a straight up face even though he killed a guy.

 

Am I the only one who forgot Undertaker killed a man? Taker lobbied for the title shot and thus JBL v. Taker was born.

 

The guys did put on a match that satisfied the fans who paid their hard earned money to see the show. So they decided to amuse themselves and have some fun. I thought it was cool. If I was at a show and was witnessing Taker v. JBL- I'd join in too.

 

WWE thought the fans would buy Taker v. JBL as a big match for the title. They were wrong and were told so by the fans. Still don't get how that's a bad thing.

 

 

Both those guys actually showed some solid effort in their match. Taker tried to show off some new submission skills - skills that some around here were going absolutely apeshit over. JBL did one of the best bumping jobs I've ever seen him do. They threw in interesting false finishes, entertaining ending sequences....and what?

 

Actually the crowd did start to get into the false finishes- which is when the match picked up. I'd be bored as shit if I saw Taker do some submission holds in a match as well. I'd be bored if I had to see JBL work over Taker's leg. I don't buy JBL as a guy who can last 5 minutes with Undertaker since he's a midcard joke and Taker is a guy who never loses. The fans didn't either. Should they find where Vince McMahon is and tell him that? No- they decided that the match wasn't worth their time and did the wave. Which is their right as the paying customer.

 

The fans didn't even bother to pay attention.

 

Taker and JBL did not do the same here. They've both been very loyal to the company, they both tried hard to put on a good match - they both deserved the common courtesy for people to pay attention without chanting "BORING!" or doing the fucking wave.

 

I wouldn't give both men gold stars for loyalty. Taker did think of jumping to WCW at one point. And I don't think any other wrestling organisations really want Bradshaw anyway.

 

I don't even remember the fans chanting boring but whatever. And if they did chant boring they were obviously paying attention to the match. They just found it boring.

 

The fans deserved the common courtesy of two men to put on a half decent match. The fans deserved the common courtesy of seeing a credible WWE Title match.

 

How long should the fans have waited before doing the wave? Should there have been a timer where at the end of 5 minutes or so of not being entertained they could do the wave?

 

People go to wrestling shows to have fun. Not to show JBL, a guy who write a scathing commentary on a large portion of WWE's fanbase, some respect. Maybe JBL should've shown the fans some respect and some common courtesy before breaking a German law or writing an online commentary calling us idiots.

 

 

Besides the London ropeflip in the Six-Man and the Top-Rope Chokeslam in Kane/Hardy, they stayed incredibly quiet throughout both of those matches. There was some hard work going on in the Six-Man, an intricate storyline placed in front of the Kane/Hardy match - and people relished the opportunity to sit on their hands. To me, that's pretty dreadful behavior.

 

That's not being dreadful.

 

Inspiring dread; terrible.

Extremely unpleasant; distasteful or shocking: dreadful table manners; this dreadful heat

 

They were just silent- and I thought there was some pretty decent heat for the match- it wasn't dreadful. They just weren't going crazy.

 

The Kane v. Matt storyline is dumb as shit.

 

We have two faces in this story. One is a guy so awesome that his girlfriend slept with another man to stop from getting beat up. And the girlfriend is so dumb that she doesn't- a) wear a condom b) take birth control or c) get an abortion when she sleeps with the other guy and gets knocked up from him.

 

I think everyone knew Matt had no chance in hell and responded accordingly. I was at Vengeance and no one gave a shit about the match either. Were we dreadful?

 

QUOTE

And they were hot during the 3-way- they just cheered one face over the other. (Well according to you every face got booed- but whatever)

 

 

 

Well, Bob, congratulations. You've managed to distort my words in a pretty respectable way. I never said they weren't loud for the Three-Way. And I never said EVERY face got booed. I said nearly every face was booed and, if you would take your fingers out of your ears, you would see that's true. If they weren't booed, then everyone stayed quiet for them instead.

 

What an amazing crowd.

 

No problem- you're the one who acted like the Toronto crowd broke some sin of wrestling because they GASP! didn't care about a WWE Title Match and GASP! booed a good guy.

 

And you said they booed the face in nearly every face. They booed the face in two matches. That's only 25% of the matches. That's a very loose definition of the word nearly.

 

It should be noted that in the last three WWE Title matches- Two have ended in DQ and the other had a Dusty finish. And the champion is Bradshaw. Would you take that title seriously?

 

QUOTE

Should Toronto have cheered Eugene because they were told to? The crowd didn't like him so they booed him. Should they just go along with what Vince says and cheer who he says to cheer?

 

 

 

The mentality of the Toronto crowd against Eugene would mean so much more if they hadn't pulled the same shit all night.

 

It's also interesting to me that the crowd was solidly against Eugene at the beginning of the match, but continued to pop for the Rock-Bottom, Stunner, Legdrop....until Eugene wound up receiving quite the mixed reaction at the end.

 

They booed the Hogan stuff though. The Stunner and Rock Bottom are moves that are so defined with WWE that anyone could do them and would get a pop. (Either positive or negative) It's not that they suddenly liked Eugene- it's because they got to see a Stunner and a Rock Bottom.

 

 

The sheep mentality - "Hey, I'm gonna boo this guy because those guys over there are doing the same thing! That's so cool" - played a HUGE part here. For many people there, it had nothing to do with cheering for who they liked, and booing who they disliked. It had to do with trying to look cool and seem smart, compared to all the other "idiots" that respond sensically.

 

Not really. They wanted to have fun at Summerslam. They did the wave, booed the retard, and heckled Earl Hebner. They had some fun. Good for them. It's better then people who go to a WWE show and just sit there bored. Would you have liked them to sit there silently and stare into space? Now that'd suck.

 

 

 

QUOTE

And they're getting called out on it by idiots who don't seem to like the fact that a bunch of fans at a wrestling show they PAID to see decided to have fun when the product they paid to see was not providing it.

 

 

 

Whoa! Watch those hardcore comments! This isn't the "Saturday Night Live Review" thread! Nobody just insulted Norm McDonald! Hold on there, buddy, before you start throwing out insults that you don't mean.

 

If you're so upset that a crowd of wrestling fans did the wave in a title match- you're an idiot.

 

And I don't think I've ever called someone an idiot in any of my SNL review threads. And you might as well learn to spell people's names if you're going to try and sound cool and try to insult me by using stuff that has nothing to do with the point at hand.

 

Just as a heads up, it may be smart to stop throwing out the term "idiot" to people that don't deserve it. I certainly don't think I'm an "idiot." And I don't think many of the people here calling out the Toronto crowd for their actions are "idiots." But I do think it's idiotic that someone is using the term because others have dared argue against his points, trying to establish the idea that sometimes - JUST SOMETIMES - it wouldn't be horrible to show some fucking respect to two guys working hard in the wrestling ring.

 

If you're throwing a hissy fit and getting all bent out of shape because people decided not to give a shit during an Undertaker v. Bradshaw match then again- you're an idiot.

 

As a result of the Toronto fans actions-

 

a) No one got hurt

b) No laws were broken (Aside from that one idiot- but I don't think he was part of the wave)

c) People had fun.

 

THOSE BASTARDS!

[bob_barron 0]

Now, in wrestling, it's a completely different story. The main goal is to entertain the fans. It's to plan out that certain match to get the crowd emotionally involved. They crave to hear the fans give them a reaction or, at least, have their full attention. Now, when people start doing the Wave, that's completely disrespectful to the guys who have entire careers resting on how the fans respond to them.

 

Taker and JBL's whole careers were not resting on that one match. Is Taker going to get fired because of it? No. Is JBL? No. Are they still getting their nice PPV bonuses? Yes.

 

They do crave to hear the fans react but- if the fans hadn't been doing the wave- they probably would've been silent. So it's not like the fans would've been going crazy had there been no wave.

 

Taker and JBL didn't throw a horrible match out there. They didn't deserve to get that kind of treatment. They showed effort. They tried to get the crowd involved. And they got the Wave in return.

 

You may not think that. But the fans who paid to sit in those seats thought the match was not what they wanted and were not being entertained. So they decided to entertain themselves. Should have they have sat there silently until JBL and Taker started copying every WWF main event from 1998-2000?

 

They tried to get the crowd involved and they failed. So did the crowd did the wave. Tough shit.

 

Just to further hit home the point:

 

Baseball is real. The fans aren't involved.

Wrestling is fake. The fans are HIGHLY involved.

 

Apparently the fans aren't as highly involved if the match is a WWE Title Match between JBL and Taker.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Respect has to be earned. Benoit & Orton succeeded. Taker & JBL did not, and the fans responded accordingly. It isn't the first time.

 

The real bad crowds are the ones in places like Anaheim where they sit on their hands the whole night no matter what happens.

[Lord of The Curry 0]

So, if the fans don't like it, how should they respond? Because it seems to me that the phrase "damned if you, damned if you don't" applies here. If the fans were silent people would be taking this same route. If they chanted "boring" people would call them disrespectful. The fans obviously did their job of showing that they didn't give two fucks about that match if so many people are getting sand in their vaginas about it.

[Guest JoeyStyles]

The last time I checked these wrestlers were getting paid tons of money to entertain us, Benoit didn't get the wave on his match neither did Eddie, even RVD was entertaining on Heat than that crappy SD main event. I hope other fans do the same thing when bad WWE shows come to their arenas.

[Promoter 0]

The thing is that I think some are overlooking the fact that the wwe sees Toronto as perhaps the mecca of wrestling for Canada. The wwe are trying to re-establish the product in their main markets. New York got Mania. Toronto got SummerSlam. Is Survivor Series at Chicago Rosemount Horizon? Then Mania 21 is located in LA. These are traditionally hotbeds for the wwe. If any of these cities shit on the wwe I think it's a sign there are flaws in the product. Usually these towns eat things up. That is why I think Toronto being blackballed aint gonna happen. Toronto's media gives wrestling a lot more respect than the thousands of other places they travel. Remember this is the city that has stuff like OTR. Sorry for the crowd being a bit different to other cities.

[bob_barron 0]

Survivor Series is in Cleveland I think

[Guest whitemilesdavis]

Good crowd = a crowd that pays.

 

When WWE starts paying me to show up, they can start dictating how I respond to their product. Otherwise they better entertain me, or I'm doing the frigging wave.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I was curious on why people think Benoit got such a bigger reaction on Raw than summerslam where his reaction was positive but not what it should've been. Both shows were in Ontario, right?

[Lord of The Curry 0]

More Orton fans at SummerSlam.

[clean rob 0]

I was curious on why people think Benoit got such a bigger reaction on Raw than summerslam where his reaction was positive but not what it should've been. Both shows were in Ontario, right?

I thought we'd already established this. It's because the crowd in Toronto were crap!

[Twisted Intestine 0]

Some of you are acting like the wrestlers are retards who need to be lied to or their feelings will get hurt..

 

Their job is to entertain fans. If they do not succeed in this, it's their own fault, better luck next time.

 

The fans didn't like JBL vs Taker, and they showed it.

 

Are they suppose to pretend to like it so that JBL and Taker will feel good about themselves?

 

Hopefully people take a leasson from this and start disrespecting ALL the shit they see live. Then maybe the WWE will smarten up and we'll stop getting such a shitty product.

 

If you reward them for being shit, they won't change.

[Promoter 0]

Survivor Series is in Cleveland I think

See what I'm talking about? Cleveland held the first Survivor Series. Vince is in a down time and he wants to go to his traditional hotbeds that usually are a root for growing his product. Look at where the major shows were 20 years ago. New York had WM 1. Chicago/LA/New York area had WM 2. Big Event happened in Toronto. Vince did say at Mania "where it all begins again".

[Guest Staravenger]

Why couldn't the fans at Judgment Day or great American Bash do it? Summerslam was the 2nd best PPV in terms of wrestling behind Wrestlemania, and got the treatment. Why not shows that our-right suck and everyone knew would suck weeks in advance? Is Toronto THAT much more of a smark fanbase than Richmond, VA (or wherever GAB waS) or...whoever hosted Judgment Day?

[Guest TigerDriver91]

I don't know what is more ridiculous... the fans at SummerSlam or the fact that all of you won't shut up about it.

[Guest Staravenger]

At least it evolved from "Toronto sucks!" "No, you suck loser!" arguments.

[Promoter 0]

TigerDriver91 Good one!

 

Boy, I could imagine that crowd seeing the death of Paul Bearer

[Guest Staravenger]

I wish, that would've been great. I actually enjoy a crowd turning on a match (note: singular) that really really sucks, and is an insult to wrestling. We got that in Steiner vs. HHH...both versions, and Goldberg vs. Brock Lesnar. I don't think Summerslam was bad enough in booking or wrestling terms to warrant it though when comparing some other situations.

[Lil' Bitch 0]

I notion this thread be also a classic!

[Guest TigerDriver91]

I was curious on why people think Benoit got such a bigger reaction on Raw than summerslam where his reaction was positive but not what it should've been. Both shows were in Ontario, right?

I thought we'd already established this. It's because the crowd in Toronto were crap!

Just don't forget the fact that there were people in the crowd (like myself) who didn't participate in the wave crap and tried to pay attention to the match.

[Da Maintenance Man 0]

Don't mean to sound like a dumbass here but when you say the crowd did "The Wave" during the Taker/JBL match what "Wave" are you talking about? Were they waving their hands around like they were at a concert or were they waving goodbye or something?

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

I hope you're really young. The wave is when a section of the fans stands up, then the section next to them stands as the first group sits back down, then the next section stands then sits and it goes all the way around the stadium. Like a 'wave' of people. They do it at football games and other sporting events all the time. Apparently you're not allowed to do it at wrestling matches because it will make the Undertaker cry like a little girl, and we wouldn't want that.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

Heeeeeeeee! This thread was hilarious. I love Toronto! I can just picture Bradshaw and Undertaker lying on the canvas, rolling around, groping each other in their "submission-style" match while the fans ignore them completely and proceed to entertain themselves. That's so awesome. If they leave all the big "Fuck You, Vince" spots the fans did at SummerSlam intact for the DVD it'll be a definite purchase for me. Sounds like it could be right up there with that incredible WCW nightmare PPV (I'm thinking it was a WrestleWar?) right after Flair split for the WWF and took the belt with him, leaving the alleged main event as Windham-Luger for a new belt, but the real highlight was the chants of "We want Flair" all night long. That was classic. I suppose we would've gotten eight pages of "Ooooh, those mean (not sure where it was, but definitely in the USA) fans disrespected Luger and Windham" if the board had been around back then?

 

Whatever.

 

Pissed-off, drunken Canucks, I salute thee!

 

[Guest Staravenger]

Great American Bash 1991. And that was bad because almost every wrestler deliberately half-assed their match in protest, and the crowd just unleashed a mighty "we Want Flair" chant for Luger/Windham for the World Title.

[Guest TigerDriver91]

Pissed-off, drunken Canucks, I salute thee!

 

I wonder if that beer was from the ACC. That damn arena charges too much for beer imho. Too expensive

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Is Toronto THAT much more of a smark fanbase than Richmond, VA (or wherever GAB waS) or...whoever hosted Judgment Day?

 

Yep. You probably would have seen similar reactions in the other big smark cities (New York, Boston & Philadelphia) too. Look at how Boston reacted to HHH/Steiner at Rumble 03.

 

Most of Canada is pretty smarkish in general.