A Thought

[Guest MikeSC]

The more I see it, the more concerned I actually get about the over-abundance of outright HATRED between the parties.

 

Now, there has ALWAYS been an undercurrent of deep disdain between the two political parties. It has been the case from as far back as Hamilton v Burr. However, at the bare minimum, the ELECTED MEMBERS of the political parties tried to APPEAR to not hate one another. Yes, some did openly hte each other (Burr had no problems shooting Hamilton), but by and large, the elected officials served as a CALMING influence over the more extreme members of their base. Even during slavery, they TRIED to make it look like they were arguing over deep issues and not JUST slavery (clearly, it was not the case).

 

However, it seems that since 1994, this has not been the case. And I'll be honest, the Republicans went a long way in coarsening the dialogue. When they won the House in 1994, they wanted --- they didn't openly state it, but it was definitely not far beneath the surface --- revenge. They REMEMBERED what happened to Nixon and some of them, no doubt, did not like it. They remembered what happened to Clarence Thomas and Robert Bork and wanted some SERIOUS payback to the Democrats who did that to their "brethren". So, politeness was discarded and attacking became the law of the land. And the Democrats simultaneously coarsened their discourse as they were unable --- and still have a hard time handling --- no longer being in power.

 

Was Clinton hated? To a degree, absolutely. HOWEVER, almost every conservative was willing to state that PERSONALLY, Bill Clinton was a nice guy. I have no doubt that, even though I think he's one of the more useless Presidents ever, I'd probably like him a lot. Most Republicans were willing to say that they utterly loathed his policies --- but personally, thought the guy was a friendly enough fellow.

 

Things, of course, have only gotten worse. Sadly enough. The hatred of Clinton has morphed into an even more vehement hatred of Bush.

 

Bush, honestly, doesn't even get the respect that Clinton got from his opponents. And Bush truly does not, to me, seem like anything but a real nice guy. I have no doubt he'd be exceptionally likable to anybody who spent time with him personally. However, so many of his critics can't seperate policy disagreements with PERSONAL disagreements. Far too many seem to PERSONALLY hate the man. It does seem to be more than mildly ridiculous at this point.

 

The concern, though, is that anger and hatred only tends to feed on itself. If Bush wins, does ANYBODY expect things to not get VERY ugly? I would not be surprised, whatsoever, of ANYTHING the left would do in that situation. Violence in the street is not beyond the pale. Impeachment is almost expected.

 

That being said, if Kerry wins, the right --- would do the EXACT SAME THING. There'd probably be no different reaction whatsoever. I'll go ahead and say that I do not feel that Kerry is a bad guy. He seems like he'd be a little bland personally, but nothing about him indicates a man who would be somebody who can engender extreme dislike or hatred. I'll joke about his obsession with his war record, but by and large, he just seems like a fairly ordinary fella. However, Bush does not seem like a man who people can easily generate hate either --- and we've seen that he has done so. It makes no sense, whatsoever, to assume that Kerry would be any different. Again, it's brutally hard to unite a country when one side does not WANT to unite.

 

Sadly, the ONLY people who can fix the problem are the voters --- but if the elected officials do not calm down the electorate, tell them that hating their opposition is NOT a good path to take and that NOBODY wants anything but the best for America (even if their views on what is best is fundamentally different), we have a problem. At a certain point, we the voters have to recognize that our government is NOT evil. They do not SEEK to send people off to war to please their "cronies".

 

Try and keep a level head. Bush does not want to see this country suffer. Kerry does not want to see this country suffer. I hope voters attempt to actually seperate policy disagreements with personal disagreements. I know many of us here --- myself included --- need to do that.

-=Mike

[Highland 0]

Has it gotten this bad yet?

 

[Rob E Dangerously 0]

Impeachment is almost expected.

So, you think the Democrats are going to win the House in November?

 

thanks for the vote of confidence.

 

[St. Gabe 0]

Wow, Mike, I quite honestly just gained a huge amount of respect for you. With alot of the bickering I see in this folder, It's nice to see someone who is definitely not a moderate look at things from a balanced perspective. I applaud the sentiment of your post.

 

The reason I am in College studying History echoes the sentiments in your monologue. The founders of this country, while they had alot of policy differences, founded this country united as a group fighting for the same goal. In my opinion this hasn't changed. They, for the most part, are fighting for the same goal, the protection of our country and it's people.

 

I think it is human nature to trust those in power, even if you don't believe in certain policies of certain candidates, or leaders, the fact remains, barring 9-11, in most of our(those that post here) lifetimes we have been safe. Corruption is a fact of political life, I will vote on the policies that effect me, just as I hope you will vote on policies, and not personal feelings. I don't like George Bush, I don't like John Kerry, But the fact is that I disagree with George Bush's foreign policy. I believe a change is necessary for ME. Voting is a personal thing, and I would urge you all to study the candidates and their platforms. Not their drug use in the past,or their war record, or their lack of good vocabulary

 

I suppose that is my 2 cents, but again, Mike, I definitely gained a new respect for you.

 

Thanks

--Gabe

[Guest CronoT]

Has it gotten this bad yet?

 

I remember seeing a clip on the Daily Show a few years ago that showed a pier-six brawl during a legislative session in a Asian country; I think it was Singapore, but I'm not sure.

[Highland 0]

That was the image I was looking for, but this one popped up so I made due.

[NoCalMike 0]

Personally, I don't think Dubya is evil or anything like that. I do however think he was underqualified to be the president and is overall not a very sharp guy, and because of this he has had to surround himself with a-holes who have their own agenda and will use George W's status as President and figure-head to achieve their own personal goals(PNAC). I also don't think George W wants to see our country suffer, but I also think he doesn't have a superior general knowledge of the world and foreign policy that a President should have, he did by the way say that foreign policy wasn't important awhile back, and the latest soundbyte of him answering someone's question about defining a soveign nation was just, quite frankly embarrasing. Now don't get me wrong, hearing a man slip up does not make me generate hatred for the guy, but rather I just don't understand why people would vote for someone who just doesn't come off very bright. Hell he might be a genius, and fooling us all with an act, but there is no way in hell you can tell me he comes off like someone who graduated from an Ivy League school. A Frat brother that I'd have a beer with and shoot some billiards with, sure, but the LEADER OF THE FREE WORLD, no.

 

And quite frankly I am tired of both parties, and am pretty much done with them.

[Dr. Tyler; Captain America 0]

Truthfully, the "hatred" mantra that has been brought up recently is a bit overblown. I don't disagree that there is a supreme dislike for Bush by the left, but it seems to me that it's more the "priveledged son out of touch with the rest of America" tripe that comes up every time a person born into wealth is elected (the exception being Kennedy, because he was, y'know, that damned sexy). It may have been escalated by the fact that many of the loonies got a blog (and thus, a voice) and a chance to spout their nonsense, but nonetheless, that isn't the case with most Americans.

 

What DOES baffle me about you, Mike, is how readily willing you are to label fringe extremists as the "norm" on the left. They don't represent even 5% of real America, perhaps 10% of the broader "left", and you're making it sound like they represent the whole lot of us. I strongly believe that your post here applies in large part to that dangerous 10% (including both sides of the spectrum). Both sides have their attack dogs and their willingness to use violence to achieve their ends, and races like this polarize those radicals even more.

 

The 10%, no doubt, must be contained. But the situation isn't as dire as you think. Don't be fooled into thinking that rhetoric is anything more than that; the hatred doesn't lie as deeply with most people as it seems.

[CheesalaIsGood 0]

I think also that the time for the reality that people on either side are not going anywhere regardless of the results of the election. Both sides need to see that having an opinion and declaring it isn't going to make people of an opposing view just disappear.

 

Is it so hard to handle the idea that both sides should be asking what the other would be willing to compromise on as far as issues and laws? I mean, yes, I'm a left leaning guy but not every issue is as important to me as some others. I mean what laws, issues, or controversies would you be willing to concede to make gains elsewhere?

 

 

 

Good post Mike.

[Vern Gagne 0]

I don't think Bush is dumb. He's just not the best public speaker. Sometimes he can be very good, other times he really struggles. The man also has a BA from the Harvard School of Business. That's not something you get because your father was the Embassador to the UN at the time. You have to earn that degree.

 

I'm pretty much with Mike. I'm voting for Bush because i feel he's the better man for the job. However if Kerry wins, he wins. The President can't always be someone you like politically. A lot of ways that's probably for the best.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Fuck this shit -- I love the partisan bickering. It makes for great entertainment. Go ahead and call Bush "Hitler." I'll retort and call America's Vietnam War Hero a Baby Killing Traitor. It's all in good fun.

 

Hey, Tyler, you commie -- I'm calling your bitch-ass out...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to play Madden 2005. (NoCal and MikeSC are welcome to join, but you'd have to get my multi-tap out...

[Guest thebigjig]

I believe that this is honestly the first fair and balanced (shut up) post I've read from you in some time... and to be fair, probably the first fair and balanced post I've read from anyone, including myself...

 

I was actually thinking about this the other day... if Kerry wins, the Republicans will not give him a chance what so ever because Bush is in a somewhat strange situation where you either love him or hate him... there's an emotional attachment there. I've seen people CRY at the thought of losing him and I've seen people cry at the thought of having him for another 4 years. That's pretty powerful... and if he loses, the Republicans will be a pissed off party, more so than they have been in the past.

 

Same goes with Kerry. The Democrats are so passionate about getting Bush out, that if he gets another four years, the Dems will be even more pissed than they are now, and will stop at nothing to roadblock everything that Bush does...

 

The ONLY way the political climate will cool, is if Bush wins and the Republicans keep the majority, or if Kerry wins and the Democrats win the majority...

 

Because if Bush wins and the Democrats take back either the Senate or the House, or BOTH... they'll make his life a living hell, and vice versa.

 

I really don't see things getting better for a very long time

[Guest thebigjig]

Oh, and about Bush being dumb...

 

I don't think he's stupid at all... though I love to make fun of him.

 

History has proven that brilliant men can be misguided and ignorant, and ignorant, poorly educated men, can at times be entirely correct

 

I think Bush is shrewed and politically savvy but on the other hand, I think he's an ignorant fool, regardless of how likeable he appears.

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

I agree with the sentiment that ratcheted tensions are making legitimate discourse between the two major parties regrettably difficult, but like Tyler, I don’t think it’s quite the end of the world yet. Impeachment seems like a stretch; it only gains any momentum with the deepest conflations of moral and criminal fault. Nothing Bush has done yet leads me to believe that the legislators who actually could determine an impeachment would do so. He’s messed up on some things, but he hasn’t sunk to the depths of Watergate, nor has he done anything where the illicit and political have become inextricably linked, as with Clinton’s impeachment. Rhetoric or not, I don’t see the partisan spirit taking things that far.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

I've seen people CRY at the thought of losing him and I've seen people cry at the thought of having him for another 4 years.

 

Ha. You think that's bad? Peep this:

 

Back in '96 I worked at a BP while in college, and during Election Day I encountered some psychos that were so anti-Clinton. This one lady said that we are being punished for our sins. Another one went on a partial-birth abortion rant, and yet another person said that the Lord wouldn't let Bill get re-elected.

 

I of course found this all funny as hell -- my liberal co-worker didn't find that shift too amusing; especially the fact I was getting on the intercom and offering free coffee/hot chocolate/fountain drinks to any customer at the pump that had a Dole/Kemp bumper sticker.

 

Good times...

[Guest thebigjig]

You're a very evil man...

 

and I love you for it

 

 

EDIT: Oh and speaking of the religious right... I actually had an argument the other day with a woman who said that Bush being elected was part of Gods plan and that when he lost the popular vote, God stepped in with divine intervention...

 

If Kerry wins, I cant WAIT to see the reaction of the ultra religious right

[The Thread Killer 0]

I believe that this is honestly the first fair and balanced (shut up) post I've read from you in some time...

 

"Fair and balanced?"

 

As a long time lurker in this forum, and a closet fan of kkktookmybabyaway, I have ALWAYS wanted to do this...

 

OMG FAUX NEWZ LOL2004!!!

 

By the way, excellent post Mike and I agree with you.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

You're a very evil man...

Ha. Peep this, too, homz.

 

Same job: On Tuesdays and Fridays I took care of our store's truck order. Long story short -- I get in at 6 p.m., wait for the supply truck, which is supposed to be there at 6:30 but never was. Usually the truck got there at 8 p.m. and I stayed until like 2 a.m. putting shit away.

 

Anyway, since the local Subway had a deal (two footlongs for $6) every Tuesday, I began going there for dinner. Eat and good off for 2-3 hours on the clock and then work. I called it "Teamster Tuesday." Pretty soon, I began running orders for the other 4-5 workers that would be at the store with me doing register work. Man, getting those stamps for all those subs rocked.

 

And in my experiences with union people at my various dead-end jobs I have worked at, never once have I seen one of them smile. When the delivery people would arrive to deliver goods and products, they would be the most miserable beings on the face of the earth. The highlight came when I was working at BP. We had a gas delivery and the old fat guy pumping in the fuel began bitching to me about how all our bosses were on their yachts and stuff. I, not being one too sympathetic to this kind of class-envy, populist shit, shot back something like "Well would you rather not have them at the helm and you out of job?" He never spoke to me again.

 

As a long time lurker in this forum, and a closet fan of kkktookmybabyaway

 

Please. My allies just call me kkk.

 

And the kkk Nation grows by one more soldier...

[Guest thebigjig]

Can I be the lone liberal in the kkk Nation?

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Bush has a number of problems. Although he can't do anything about it there's a group (and I wish it was larger on both sides) of Americans who don't like legacies in office. The comedic scenarios of him calling up Dad for policy advice were pretty much inevitable. There's also, as the late night circuit proved, that he can make the most ridiculous slips and not recognize them, sitting there with a smile on his face like nothing happened. That is expected from Arnold, but shocking when it's a guy who graduated from Yale.

 

But hell, we had a President who fell down a lot, and a President who threw up on another head of state, as long as the guy doesn't mess up and promise to attack some nation, we'll do fine, right?

 

And then the terror attacks happened, and then came the rhetoric and the bullhorn to the crowd in downtown New York and the western movie references and "we'll smoke 'em out of their holes" and so on. In that was the jazz about going around the world getting rid of terrorism, but nobody believed that. It was rhetoric, right? Even the most powerful nation can't get rid of all terrorism. If you try, you create a state so restrictive that revolutionaries commit terrorism to rebel against it, and you've created even more terrorism. But let's not think about that right now, let's go stick a pike through the head of the guy that organized this.

 

And so we went, and things didn't go so well, and it became kind of humiliating when the Pentagon was asking around for ideas, and eventually the most advanced space-age military had to ride in the backseat to a bunch of foreign fighters on horseback. But a lot of Taliban were killed and unfortunately the guy we were really looking forward to hauling in managed to take off from his hidden base like Dr. Claw.

 

And then after all that we found out that it wasn't really rhetoric, and he really was serious about going around the world cleaning up their civilization and wiping out terror, and those of us who realized that the Middle East has been an untameable beast since the Dark Ages got kind of worried.

 

And it was somewhere around there where all the "Well, we'll live" turned into "Get that guy out NOW!" I hope the next Republican President at least gets a chance, because I don't want to see this begin again either, it ought to be deserved. If it's a permenent attitude, then we'll just be fighting and arguing forever.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

The ONLY way the political climate will cool, is if Bush wins and the Republicans keep the majority, or if Kerry wins and the Democrats win the majority...

 

Because if Bush wins and the Democrats take back either the Senate or the House, or BOTH... they'll make his life a living hell, and vice versa.

I still maintain that this would make everyone better off as less would get done and so we'd see Bush signing less Democratic pork, Democrats not passing Republican pork, stupid wedge issues such as gay marriage getting no steam without being shot down by the other side, and so on.

 

Right now we have neoconservatives in almost every corner and that's as bad as liberals running the whole government.

 

I don't think the guy is HITLERSATAN~! but I think the whole unity message of his campaign was a pretty big lie. This is a guy who clearly believes in the neocon message you can hear from Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. This a guy who crossed the White House lawn waving to the press while holding Bernard Goldberg's Bias. I wouldn't be suprised if prior to living such a public life if he was listening to those radio blowhards, or reading Ann Coulter, or having a subscription to the Weekly Standard.

 

And while we all know that these entertainers, political wonks, and partisan hacks are out there, it's nice to think your President keeps himself in a bubble from it. Or at least that he does if he's going to talk about uniting parties and raising the level of discourse.

[AndrewTS 0]

Good post, although I think that Mike's believe in just what will happen after the elections is really overestimating. I don't expect violence either way, although there will be a lot of bitter political infighting for certain.

 

I don't think as many of the left are as insanely anti-Bush as Mike thinks, however, rarely have I heard of a president that public figures, people on the street, etc are as vocal against. Yet it seems to be very rare when they'll calmly lay out certain policies they disagree with--they take it to a personal attack right away. Very sad, and it's part of why I've become disinterested in politics so quickly when I was very much into them 5-6 years ago.

 

I still maintain that this would make everyone better off as less would get done and so we'd see Bush signing less Democratic pork, Democrats not passing Republican pork, stupid wedge issues such as gay marriage getting no steam without being shot down by the other side, and so on.

 

Jobber--while normally that's a situation that's just peachy, I think Mike fears routine, necessary things that should be passed will be shot down merely from where they originate, and if the Democrats win control of Congress, they'll attempt to impeach Bush on whatever grounds they could come up with. That's a little different than having one party control Congress and the other control the Presidency...

 

Also, yes--the gay marriage amendment has to be one the stupidest and most flat-out wrong bills I've ever heard of. Worst of all, it was a colossal waste of time since there was no way in hell it would ever get passed. It was passing out free ammo to Bush opponents that he deserved to get shot back at him.

[Slayer 0]

And the kkk Nation grows by one more soldier...

Anything I can do for you, boss?

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Can I be the lone liberal in the kkk Nation?

You assume you're the only liberal that wants to be a member.

 

Anything I can do for you, boss?

 

Yeah, get the chips for our group's weekly meeting. It was Rant's turn to get it, but I think he's getting his toes sucked at the public laundromat or something...

[Slayer 0]

Anything I can do for you, boss?

 

Yeah, get the chips for our group's weekly meeting.

Cheetos or Fritos?

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Both...

[Slayer 0]

What about Doritos and Tostitos?

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Them too. And for the sake of post whoring accusations, just empty our your pantry...

[Slayer 0]

I don't post whore

[Slayer 0]

Honest...