The Ichiro hits chase is on

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ichiro Suzuki went 5 for 5 yeaterday, increasing his hits total to 223. He's 34 hits short of the record, with 27 games to play. He is on pace for 268 hits. While less spectacular, he's also on pace to break the single season at bats total. The record is 705 (Willie Wilson, 1980). Ichiro is on pace for 707.

 

In order to hit .400, Ichiro would need to hit about .508 the rest of the season.

[Mik 0]

I have a question for everyone:

 

Do you think there is a remote possibility that Ichiro could take home his second MVP award for this year? Granted, the Mariners are in last place, but A-Rod still won last year. These are certainly once in a lifetime numbers.

 

I still think Sheffield, Manny, and Vlad have a better chance, but if Ichiro somehow ends up hitting .400, that would probably change my mind.

[Slayer 0]

No way MVP should go to a player on a last-place team. EVER.

 

I said that about Rodriguez last year and I'll say it now.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

I won't say that, but I will say Ichiro! isn't the best player (or hitter) in the AL.

 

but he still rulez

[lomasmoney 0]

why isn't he the best hitter in the AL

[Guest Brian]

Mainly OBP and Slugging, I'm guessing. He'll finish with an abysmal number of walks for a leadoff hitter and probably single digits in homeruns. And do the infield hits count against him and for his speed.

[UZI Suicide 0]

Mainly OBP and Slugging, I'm guessing. He'll finish with an abysmal number of walks for a leadoff hitter and probably single digits in homeruns. And do the infield hits count against him and for his speed.

you do realize he has the 2nd highest OBP in the AL right?

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

look, we all love Ichiro, but if you think he's better than Vlad or Sheffield or Manny than you're smoking rocks.

[Krankor 0]

I won't say that, but I will say Ichiro! isn't the best player (or hitter) in the AL.

The guy who is going to break the season hit record isn't the best hitter???

 

Oh that's right, you don't need to get hits to be a good hitter. Sorry, I forgot that you have to hit 50+ HR's in a season to be considered a good hitter.

[Guest Brian]

Mainly OBP and Slugging, I'm guessing. He'll finish with an abysmal number of walks for a leadoff hitter and probably single digits in homeruns. And do the infield hits count against him and for his speed.

you do realize he has the 2nd highest OBP in the AL right?

Well, he's really crept up as of late. I tuned out of the Mariners in August, when he was at .390.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I won't say that, but I will say Ichiro! isn't the best player (or hitter) in the AL.

The guy who is going to break the season hit record isn't the best hitter???

 

Oh that's right, you don't need to get hits to be a good hitter. Sorry, I forgot that you have to hit 50+ HR's in a season to be considered a good hitter.

There is more to hitting than simply collecting hits. Home runs are more valuable than singles. Walks are a hitting skill, and a batter who controls the strike zone adds value as a hitter. Who led the American League in hits last season? Props if you can answer Vernon Wells without looking it up (or being a Blue Jays fan). Manny Ramirez and Gary Sheffield are better hitters because they hit for power, and their doubles and home runs are more devestating on the opposing team. Now if I ranked hitters ONLY on home runs, that would be just as shortsighted. We look at the complete picture.

 

That said, if the season ended today, I would place Ichiro on my hypothetical MVP ballot, and probably in the top 5. And hell, I would even give him consideration for the big prize.

[Fökai 0]

If everyone could offer their opinion on the following question, it'd spark an additional group of discussion:

 

If Ichiro gets thisclose to breaking or surpassing the .400 barrier (let's say .395 or better), in addition to claiming the hits record, does he deserve the MVP award?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

If Ichiro gets thisclose to breaking or surpassing the .400 barrier (let's say .395 or better), in addition to claiming the hits record, does he deserve the MVP award?

 

It depends on what his competitors do. But in order to hit .400, he needs to hit around .500 this month. And if he does that, I think he is the player to beat.

[Downhome 0]

Why would someone on a last place team get an MVP award? I'll never understand that as long as I live.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Why would someone on a last place team get an MVP award? I'll never understand that as long as I live.

Because they create more runs than any other player in the league.

[Krankor 0]

Lets play compare stats lines

From espn.com

 

Ichrio

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS

2004 134 593 89 224 22 5 8 54 38 52 32 10 .378 .417 .472 .889

 

Manny

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS

2004 126 478 92 151 36 0 37 110 71 109 1 4 .316 .406 .623 1.030

 

Vlad

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS

2004 130 518 102 170 34 1 28 102 41 70 12 3 .328 .380 .560 .940

 

Gary Sheffield

YEAR G AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB CS BA OBP SLG OPS

2004 130 485 102 145 27 0 33 102 82 66 5 6 .299 .408 .559 .966

 

Ichiro up against the other three.

First in AB's

Last in Runs

First in Hits

Last in 2B's

First in 3B's

Last in HR's

Last in RBI's, but he is a lead off hitter, not surprising.

Last in Walks, basically tied with Vlad

First in Strikeouts

First in Steals

Last in Caught Stealing

First in Batting Average

First in On Base Percentage

Last in Slugging

Last in OPS

 

So he's first in 7 categories and last in 8. He is last in Walks. I'll give you that, but he has the least amount of strikeouts in the most amount of at bats. That shows that he is good at the plate in pitch selection. You don't have to just have a huge amount of walks to have good control over the plate. Getting some type of hit works too.

 

Ichiro has never been a huge home run power hitter. He shouldn't be looked down on as a hitter or as an mvp candidate just because he hasn't put up top 5 power hitter numbers.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Ichiro has never been a huge home run power hitter. He shouldn't be looked down on as a hitter or as an mvp candidate just because he hasn't put up top 5 power hitter numbers.

 

Of course not. But those things do create runs, which we can't ignore. And it is not impossible for leadoff hitters to be the best hitters in their league. Tim Raines and Rickey Henderson had years where they were the best hitters.

[Krankor 0]

I'm trying to make the point that Ichiro is a lead off hitter and is the best hitter. I'm definitely not saying a leadoff hitter can't be the best hitter.

 

I said that him being last in RBI's wasn't surprising because he is a lead off hitter, and unless that player is on a team that has a stacked lineup he won't be getting as many RBI's as a guy in say the 3, 4, or 5 spot.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I will say in your defense that Ichiro leads the league in runs created.

[Slayer 0]

Why would someone on a last place team get an MVP award? I'll never understand that as long as I live.

Because they create more runs than any other player in the league.

 

Well, that depends on which MVP school of thought you believe in

 

1. The #1 player in the league, period, regardless of his effect on his team (how Al sees it)

 

2. The player who actually is the most valuable to his team (how I see it)

 

Hence why I can't support a player, no matter how good, on a last place team getting MVP. An MVP, to me, takes a basement/average team and lifts them to playoff contender level. How much value can an MVP (in the true sense) have on a last place team? Does he take them from sub-basement level to basement/average level? Look at Alex Rodriguez. If he wasn't on the Rangers last year, would they have been saying "what's up?" to the Tigers in the contender-for-worst-record-of-all-time competition? Well, I can say one thing: He's not there anymore, and look where the Rangers are.

 

That's value, I tell you what.

[Fökai 0]

An MVP, to me, takes a basement/average team and lifts them to playoff contender level.

 

So that's why you're voting for Gary Sheffield, who's taking the lovable loser Yankees to the postseason for the first time in 11 months? Or Manny Ramirez, who's playing for those lowly Red Sox?

 

I think we need to see that Win Shares statistic posted again, Al. I honestly don't remember any specifics for the MVP contenders.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Why would someone on a last place team get an MVP award? I'll never understand that as long as I live.

Because they create more runs than any other player in the league.

 

Well, that depends on which MVP school of thought you believe in

 

1. The #1 player in the league, period, regardless of his effect on his team (how Al sees it)

 

2. The player who actually is the most valuable to his team (how I see it)

 

Hence why I can't support a player, no matter how good, on a last place team getting MVP. An MVP, to me, takes a basement/average team and lifts them to playoff contender level. How much value can an MVP (in the true sense) have on a last place team? Does he take them from sub-basement level to basement/average level? Look at Alex Rodriguez. If he wasn't on the Rangers last year, would they have been saying "what's up?" to the Tigers in the contender-for-worst-record-of-all-time competition? Well, I can say one thing: He's not there anymore, and look where the Rangers are.

 

That's value, I tell you what.

I maintain a player can add value to a losing team, for this reason. The baseline for wins is not 81 games. It is zero. And rest assured any business expert will tell you the difference between the attendance of a team which won 81 games, and won that won 39 games.

 

My second argument, in the A-Rod case, is that the Rangers had good hitting, but almost historically bad pitching. Is it A-Rod's fault that no one could pitch? It was evident that the only reason you could not give Rodriguez the award was because he had bad teammates. That's a silly reason to give out an award. They have similar awards already. They are called pennants. I am not looking for a team's performance. I am looking for an individual's performance. The written MVP instructions support this:

 

Dear Voter:

 

There is no clear-cut definition of what Most Valuable means. It is up to the individual voter to decide who was the Most Valuable Player in each league to his team. The MVP need not come from a division winner or other playoff qualifier.

 

The rules of the voting remain the same as they were written on the first ballot in 1931:

 

1. Actual value of a player to his team, that is, strength of offense and defense.

2. Number of games played.

3. General character, disposition, loyalty and effort.

4. Former winners are eligible.

5. Members of the committee may vote for more than one member of a team.

 

You are also urged to give serious consideration to all your selections, from 1 to 10. A 10th-place vote can influence the outcome of an election. You must fill in all 10 places on your ballot.

 

Keep in mind that all players are eligible for MVP, and that includes pitchers and designated hitters.

 

Only regular-season performances are to be taken into consideration.

 

Third, the MVP usually does not come from a last place team. A-Rod was the exception to the rule.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

An MVP, to me, takes a basement/average team and lifts them to playoff contender level.

 

So that's why you're voting for Gary Sheffield, who's taking the lovable loser Yankees to the postseason for the first time in 11 months? Or Manny Ramirez, who's playing for those lowly Red Sox?

 

I think we need to see that Win Shares statistic posted again, Al. I honestly don't remember any specifics for the MVP contenders.

The top 10 in Win Shares, as of September 2. Win Shares is nice because it works backwards from wins. That gives it the advantage of giving a player's true value, relative to his team's performance, and it is also quite innovative in judging defense. It does take clutch hitting into account.

 

1. Gary Sheffield

2. Hideki Matsui (wow)

3. Carlos Guillen

4. Vladimir Guerrero

5. Miguel Tejada

6. Manny Ramirez

7. Jose Guillen

8. Hank Blalock

9. Alex Rodriguez

10. Michael Young

 

15. Ichiro Suzuki

 

I am not sure off-hand what pushes Suzuki so low. I need to look into it.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

I will say for the record that I don't think Win Shares are all that great.

 

The thing about the "big 3" is that they can also hit for a good average, like Ichiro. But they add truly ridiculous amounts of power. While Ichiro contributes Olerud Power.

 

I'm bored and I'm in a list mood, so here's a list.

 

Hitting for average - Ichiro, Manny, Vlad, Sheff

 

Hitting for power - Manny, Sheff, Vlad, Ichiro

 

Drawing/Getting walked - Sheff, Manny, Vlad, Ichiro

 

Defense/Running - Ichiro, Vlad, Sheff, -----------------------Manny

 

 

so I guess how much you think of them depends on what you think is most important.

[The Czech Republic 0]

I don't think Ichiro should be the MVP because I agree that he should not be on a last-place team. Hell, not even a third-place team. He's not as valuable as the players who brought their teams to divisional championships or wild cards, so screw him, he's not deserving of the AL MVP.

[Slayer 0]

I would vote for Manny, but I am slightly biased on the matter

 

*admires himself in his Ramirez jersey*

[Brush with Greatness 0]

An MVP, to me, takes a basement/average team and lifts them to playoff contender level.

 

So that's why you're voting for Gary Sheffield, who's taking the lovable loser Yankees to the postseason for the first time in 11 months? Or Manny Ramirez, who's playing for those lowly Red Sox?

 

I think we need to see that Win Shares statistic posted again, Al. I honestly don't remember any specifics for the MVP contenders.

The top 10 in Win Shares, as of September 2. Win Shares is nice because it works backwards from wins. That gives it the advantage of giving a player's true value, relative to his team's performance, and it is also quite innovative in judging defense. It does take clutch hitting into account.

 

1. Gary Sheffield

2. Hideki Matsui (wow)

3. Carlos Guillen

4. Vladimir Guerrero

5. Miguel Tejada

6. Manny Ramirez

7. Jose Guillen

8. Hank Blalock

9. Alex Rodriguez

10. Michael Young

 

15. Ichiro Suzuki

 

I am not sure off-hand what pushes Suzuki so low. I need to look into it.

Now really though, does clutch hitting exist?

[Hogan Made Wrestling 0]

I would have more of a problem with Ichiro as the MVP this year than A-Rod last year, simply because this year there are actually some strong candidates on winning teams. Last year Rodriguez got it mainly because no one else presented a very strong case, and because there were some lingering feelings that he should have won the previous year.

[iggymcfly 0]

I don't see what's so impressive about Ichiro. He's hitting five points higher than Barry Bonds (who some ludicrous people are actually suggesting should not win the NL MVP award). The only thing that's really special about him is that he gets a ridiculous amount of at-bats, due at least in part to lack of plate discipline, which allows him to threaten the hits record.

 

And as for runs created, the man's on pace to break the at-bats record, he's batting leadoff, and he's still scored less runs than any of the other candidates. Give me a break. And I still haven't mentioned the fact that he's on a last-place squad, and didn't really start compiling his numbers until his team was well out of contention.

 

If he actually does hit .400, that would be a worthwhile, historic accomplishment that would be worthy of winning the MVP award, but otherwise, no way. I'd take Vlad, Manny, and Sheffield in that order before I even considered Ichiro.

 

In fact, if I actually had a ballot, I'd put Melvin Mora ahead of Ichiro too. I mean, as a leadoff hitter, you're whole goal is to get on base. If someone's doing that better than you, and at the same time bringing power to the table, and driving in runs, why shouldn't they be higher?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

And as for runs created, the man's on pace to break the at-bats record, he's batting leadoff, and he's still scored less runs than any of the other candidates. Give me a break. And I still haven't mentioned the fact that he's on a last-place squad, and didn't really start compiling his numbers until his team was well out of contention.

 

Runs created is dependant on plate appearances, not at bats. Players who draw walks are certainly credited with Runs Created.

 

Now really though, does clutch hitting exist?

 

Yes. The ability to hit in the clutch does not exist. There is no special skill that allows a player to add extra hitting ability just because it is a "clutch" situation. But clutch hits themselves do exist, and players deserve credit for them.

 

To put it another way, we can measure clutch hitting in the past, but we can predict clutch hitting in the future.