The Bible is literally true.

[Nighthawk 0]

Very good.

[Spicy McHaggis 0]

Honestly, I think that without God, our actions are either causally determined or random... neither option is free.

 

The only thing that would somehow be able to know our future and somehow maintain our freedom is a god. After all, if you're going to believe Jesus was both fully human and fully divine, reconciling free will and omniscience shouldn't be a problem.

 

And the idea that freedom is only possible with God, makes it easier to accept the ideas about Jesus... which leads us to that oh-so-lovely philosophical circle.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Very good.

Thank you.

 

 

And for more work on the free will argument, please look up Soren Kierkegard, who may just have one of the best philosophical defenses of Christianity around (well, he is dead, but you know)

 

Augustine also talked the issue of free will. I quote.

 

"Granting that every event has a cause, he points out that human will is one of the causes of action. Hence the causal power of the will is part of the overall causal order of events foreknown by God. The paradox is effectively resolved by the distinction between the knowledge of a cause and the cause itself: God's knowing in advance that an event will necessarily occur is not the same as His causing it to occur."

 

--Great Traditions in Ethics, Peterfreund

[chaosrage 0]

Those are pretty good options to conjure up if you're a retard. In some cases, people being tortured and killed is a good thing. I'm not a christian though.

Never said it couldn't be. But is the act of killing and torturing a loving act? Specifically, the kind of killing and torture God did in the bible. Is torturing babies to punish their parents a loving act?

[chaosrage 0]

The flaw with your reasoning about the character of God, chaos, is that you're applying your somewhat sappy understanding of "love" to God.  It must be the other way around.  God defines love.  Love does not define God.  You're also failing to take into account an overall view with the sin issue, demonstrating a lack of understanding of what sin is and what it does.  But then that goes back to what I said above:  You apply a flawed, human definition to concepts that God laid out.

No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. If God existed, you're right, he would be love because that's who he is. What I am saying is he doesn't exist because what he does or what he allows isn't love. A good, loving god doesn't torture and kill his creations. A good, loving god doesn't allow his creations to torture and kill each other. If a god does this, he isn't a good loving God, so the fact that the universe has things like an eternal torture chamber, earthquakes, and murderers means the christian God can't exist.

 

If you call God love, you either A) call him that because you read it in the bible and you think the bible has to be true. In which case, you're using the same logic that people who fly planes into buildings use. "God is love, whatever he says to do must be right no matter what. After all, the book even said he was." So if you think he says to kill random people, you don't have to question it or bother thinking for yourself, just have faith and be convinced that it's love and has some greater good behind it.

 

OR B) you have arrived at this decision based on some understanding of the word. If you call a being who tortures people love, you must think torture is a good and loving act. It either is, or it isn't. If it's love for God, it has to be love for us to do it too. Especially if God defines what love is.

 

So which is it? A or B?

You must also remember Christians believe in heaven and free will. Death to a Christian isn't a punishment, it's a freedom. So yes, in an earthquake you may have 100 people dead, but that's 100 people living for all of eternity in heaven on the other side of the coin.

But not all 100 of those people are christians and go to heaven. Another thing, if I went around killing christians and setting them free, would you consider me a loving person? Serious question.

[chaosrage 0]

Is the big bang not evidence for god?

Nope, just like God, matter could have always existed.

 

Yes

 

Okay, here's the relevant part. If God knew you would pick frosted flakes and then you picked fruit loops, then God is wrong and not omniscient.

 

I know my brother so well that when given an option between two things he equally likes, he will always chose the thing closest to his right hand side. So If I set up a block of chocolate and a bowl of icecream side by side, both of which he likes equally I know he will choose the icecream because it's on the right. Does that make it any less his choice?

 

No, because you don't know for sure. He could pick the chocolate just to trick you. Are you saying he couldn't?

 

Now if you had a wizard's glass that knew the future and you looked into it and saw the future, and you saw him picking the ice cream on his right, when it came time to give him the choice, could he pick the chocolate? No, not unless the crystal ball was wrong, and never actually knew the future to begin with.

 

You seem to be staring at the point of your nose. Do our actions affect who we are, or does who we are affect our actions? Why we are here should be obvious from what we do.

 

Your actions tell us who you are. If you go around killing people, then you're probably a psycho. If you go around acting snobby, then you're probably a snob. If you act nice everywhere you go, then you're probably a nice guy. It doesn't mean it's necessarily right, but that's all we have to go on. If we can't judge him, we don't have a way of being able to tell if he's good or bad. So what's left? A neutral position. And if you're neutral towards him, I have to ask why you would want to worship him.

 

I don't believe it is said and taught anywhere in christianity that if you don't follow Jesus you will go to hell.

 

Mark 16:16-18, "He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved; but he

that believeth not, shall be damned."

 

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 

I'm pretty sure I've never read anywhere in the bible that the world come into existance 6000 years ago, a timeline is little proof of that aswell.

 

It doesn't give it a date, but it's very strict on giving the ages of people when they had sons and how long it took for things to happen. You can trace it, by finding a reference to a real event, and working backwards.

 

Are you saying God couldn't make the sun stand still or move backwards if he wanted too?

 

Tell me, how exactly does one make the sun stand still?

[chaosrage 0]

Knowledge isn't dictation. Simply because God knows and participates and has a blanket, ultimate destiny for the people that HE created doesn't make you a robot. Free Will is factored in because He made it a factor and since he's God he's perfectly capable of making it all work together.

We didn't say it was dictation. God doesn't have to MAKE us choose, but he has to know the outcome. As such, we have no choice, the outcome was determined before we had a choice to make.

 

If he knows I will pick black socks tomorrow morning, then i cannot wear red socks, thus i have no choice. Not because god made me wear black socks, but because I was going to wear black socks anyways, negating any choice i felt I had.

 

Also, chaos, your perspective on the Fall and sin is wrong. He's not punishing us for what Adam and Eve did.

 

He isn't? Then explain why we have earthquakes and hurricanes and diseases.

 

You also don't take into account Christ in that equation, which further exposes your bias and narrowminded approach to this.

 

We went over Christ already. We found out that unless you think God couldn't have redeemed us without sacrificing himself, Jesus's death was totally pointless.

 

But we were created with the ability to choose, and He hasn't stripped that away. Just like in the Garden, we'll always have the choice to choose His way or not.

 

Once again, Adam and Eve didn't have a choice. First, there's predestination. Second, they had no way to tell right from wrong, so they obviously couldn't decide if it was right to obey God and wrong to obey the snake.

 

And just like before, so many act just like their first parents and choose to ignore what He's given.

 

Just like you ignore what Zeus and hundreds of other gods have given.

[chaosrage 0]

It's like watching a movie for a second time. Just because we know exactly what's going to happen doesn't make what the character does any less their choice. Just because I've watched "The Becoming Pt2" multiple times and know the story well doesn't make it any less of Buffy's choice to kill Angel.

Excellent example. Buffy doesn't have a real choice (even though it seems like she does) because she's only a character moving along on a script. Which is what we would be if the future could be known before it happened. Just characters moving along on a script.

[chaosrage 0]

It was chosen by us. God is outside of time.

Doesn't matter. If he knew you were going to pick frosted flakes before you did it, then you couldn't pick fruit loops.

 

Yeah, show me the word omnipotence in the Bible.

 

The Greek word translated impossible could be rendered "too difficult", the implication being that there is nothing God tries to do and can't.

 

Unless he tries to make 2+2 = 5 and tries to make that rock that he can't lift, then it becomes pretty difficult.

 

Taking the word impossible out and putting "too difficult" in doesn't change anything. It still means he can do everything!

 

Rev. 19:6, "...for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

 

For the sake of argument. I don't really believe in that interpretation of Hell, and if you'd like to challenge my literal interpretation based on that, we can flip the script and you quote the verses while I counter.

 

No, I meant why by God's nature must he send someone there?

 

That interpretation of hell... Let's see. The lake of fire in revelations, furnace of fire and wailing and gnashing of teeth in Matthew, Jesus's parable of Lazarus being tormented in flame, etc..

 

No, it's just been done to death.

 

Me: "God said let there be light first thing, the light existed of it's own accord."

 

You: "Duuhr, light without sun? That's unpossible!"

 

Me: "Luke 1:37."

 

But according to you, that verse is wrong and God can't do the unpossible.

 

 

You: It took 50 zillion years.

 

Me: No it didn't.

 

The important part was that it didn't take just 6 days. Do you honestly think the universe and Earth were both 6 days old when the first people appeared? If so, how? If not, how long did you think it took?

 

I'm sorry, but this is just straight up stupid. Look up light in the dictionary.

 

Light

n

3.a. A source of light, especially a lamp, a lantern, or an electric lighting fixture: Turn out the lights when you leave.

b. The illumination derived from a source of light: by the light of the moon.

c. The particular quantity or quality of such illumination: moved the lamp closer to get better light.

d. The pathway or route of such illumination to a person: You're standing in his light.

 

Is the moon a source of light? Is it illumination? Is it a quanity of quality of illumination? Is it a path of illumination? If you think it's A, then you're wrong, the moon isn't a source of light, it's only a reflection of light. The sun is the source. If you think it's B, that's like saying if I shine a light on you that you are a light. No, you just have a light on you. You aren't a light. And C is just the quality of B and D is just the path of B.

 

So ø÷éò (raqiya) doesn't mean expanse, sky or heaven? You've cracked the Genesis code! I'd better alert The Jews.

 

In regard to the sky, raqiya only meant solid. Why? Because all of the hebrews thought that the sky was solid.

 

I'm just honestly bored talking about it. Ok, so those species didn't exist before, and are the result of a rapid evolution immediately following.

 

Wow, that's some pretty fast evolution for all those new species to come about in 4000 years.

 

Nevermind the impossibility of reproducing every population using 2 animals.

 

And God protected at least two of every kind of fish miraculously. There were miracles involved, God's been known to do that, you know.

 

If God wanted to use miracles, why wouldn't he just make a plague and have it kill everyone except for two of each species? What the hell is the point of making a flood and having Noah build an ark? Besides, if you go the "A wizard did it" route, why stop there? Might as well say that God planted fossils in the ground to trick us, or the moon used to be a light but God turned it into a rock 1000 years later to test our faith, or God put contradictions in the bible just to amuse himself, maybe there used to be a solid platform in the sky but God dissolved it. Maybe aliens came down and wrote the bible as a test to see how gullible people are. Strange way to show how the bible is true.

 

Is the idea of a flood covering the entire earth not miraculous enough that it becomes implausible based on this?

 

It's silly enough that all of the other stuff isn't necessary, but that doesn't make it any less fun. Where did all the water go? Why is there no geological record of it?

 

Actually, it doesn't. For one, there are gaps in the genaeologies which that number is based on. Before you whine, quote me a verse which says "These familial records are complete and unabridged."

 

I don't have to. I can just say read Genesis for yourself and you can see that there aren't any gaps. From Adam to Abraham, it tells you the name of each son and how old the father was when each one was born. That's 2000 years. Then 430 more years from the covenant with Abraham to the exodus. And from 1 Kings, 480 years from the exodus to King Solomon. If Solomon ever existed for real, that would be about 1000 BC.

 

For another, the 6000 years was not even supposed to be the date of creation. It was determined by Archbishop Ussher by tracing recorded history, the very thing you attempt to discredit it with.

 

So?

 

Perhps no mention of the Earth rotating or going around sun is made because they didn't know. No mention is made of the sun rotating around the Earth either. Wonder why that is.

 

Not true. Mention is made, but you don't think it's supposed to be taken literally. Same with these verses I guess, Job 9:6, Psalms 93:1, and Psalms 104:5. It would be nice if God had explained to them what the sun and earth actually did do so they wouldn't have been so confused.

 

Yes, the roman catholic chruch was very much too stupid to tell the difference.

 

Or maybe God is all the more stupider for using poetic language that they wouldn't be able to understand. I mean, did God only write the bible so people after Galileo's time would understand it?

 

I responded to them. Not all of them, because I don't want to sit here all day. There are none I can't respond to. Pick some that are important to you. One is for personal conduct, one is directed at a government. You're making this easy.

 

It would only not be a contradiction if the government didn't have people in it and they didn't kill. Plus, what about Joshua and Moses? Are they governments? I'll pick some more after we get past this one.

 

Remember what I said about literal? If I come on here and say "I reject a humanistic view of abiogenesis.", the response will be "Prince used a school word!" You know very well that I'm familiar with the word because I referenced it in the last post directed at you.

 

But abiogenesis doesn't have anything to do with evolution. You could've just said you don't believe in the theory for the origin of life.

 

I said if I presuppose the existance of Hell as we know it, we would be robots if God didn't send anybody there.

 

Yes, now WHY? where did you come up with that from? Why do people need to be sent into hell or we turn into robots?

 

You've completely missed the point. Three times now I've said that I was working within the framework of Heaven and Hell already existing as we know them.

 

Why do you keep thinking I'm not following you? I know that and three times now I've been asking you, within this framework of heaven or hell, why would God be FORCED to send people there for not believing in him?

 

Yeah, unless you're stupid. If there's no God, do you have free will? Think carefully before answering.

 

Free will to do what? Believe in God? Sure, I don't believe in predestination. Although it's arguable just how much free control you have. Culture and genetics obviously play a huge role. Example: If you had born in India there would be a compltely different god you'd be sure of, and you would be defending the Hindu bible as literally true. Think about that one for a minute.

 

No. For another thing, a deity who is worthy of worship and praise has no ego problem for requiring it. That's like saying that you're selfish and greedy for expecting to get paid when you go to work.

 

If I fucked up and did a shitty job, let's say I worked for a car company and I designed a car that ran fine half the time and the other half of the time it would collapse and kill everyone inside, not only would I not expect to get paid, I would expect to get fired. Maybe even sued or put in jail.

 

Romans 1:18 through 2:16.

 

Instead of saying "the standard of salvation is proportionate to your capability", that's actually saying there's "no excuse".

 

2 Samuel 12:23. See also 2 Samuel 13:14, Hebrews 11:32.

 

2 Sam. 12:23 refers to David's eventual death, nothing is said about the baby being in heaven

 

2 Sam 13:14 where Ammon rapes his sister doesn't say David's son is in heaven.

 

Hebrews 11:32 just lists David, doesn't say anything about his son going to heaven either.

 

No. It's more like your mother telling you to hold her hand while you cross the street, you refusing, and getting run down.

 

No, it's like you finding a note signed by your mother (that may or may not have been written by her) saying not to cross the street, deciding to cross the street anyway, and then getting run down by your mother in a car to illistrate her point.

 

Why should I believe something just because it was written down and handed to me by some strangers? Do you (or would you) tell your children to obey strangers? Show me the parent and maybe I won't cross the street.

 

I changed my mind. I'll only do it if it matters, and then only if I feel like it. Please don't play dumb.

 

The Invisible Magic Goat doesn't appreciate being brushed aside like that. He created you, the least you can do for him is prove that he doesn't exist.

[Guest SP-1]

I missed something somewhere. What exactly is the light debate about?

[Guest croweater]

Excellent example. Buffy doesn't have a real choice (even though it seems like she does) because she's only a character moving along on a script. Which is what we would be if the future could be known before it happened. Just characters moving along on a script.

 

Chaosrage, you are talking about free will and fate as if it is either one or the other. They are two mutually exclusive things, you can have both.

It's a common mistake to make, but just because things are fated to us doesn't mean we don't have a choice. God knows which decision we will make, it still doesn't make it any less our choice. I don't see how you're missing this concept. You took the Buffy example far to literally, but the point remains, He doesn't decide which breakfast cereal we choose, we decide, he just knows us so perfectly that he knows our choice. He knows OUR CHOICE. His action is to place us in an elaborate system called life where through OUR choices and decisions create the world that he wants. It's like watching Buffy but without the writters having written it. A better example would be reality television. If I watch a survivor episode for the second time does that mean I'm taking away the choice of who people will vote for? No, it's their choice. I just know their fate.

 

We didn't say it was dictation. God doesn't have to MAKE us choose, but he has to know the outcome. As such, we have no choice, the outcome was determined before we had a choice to make.

 

If he knows I will pick black socks tomorrow morning, then i cannot wear red socks, thus i have no choice. Not because god made me wear black socks, but because I was going to wear black socks anyways, negating any choice i felt I had.

Then clearly it was your choice to wear those. You're confusing free will and fate.

Okay, here's the relevant part. If God knew you would pick frosted flakes and then you picked fruit loops, then God is wrong and not omniscient.

God is not wrong, to be so would mean He's not God, you contradicted yourself.

 

Why do you keep thinking I'm not following you? I know that and three times now I've been asking you, within this framework of heaven or hell, why would God be FORCED to send people there for not believing in him?

Because to go to heaven you have to believe in God.

I mean..... can you believe in heaven without believing in God? No, you can't.

So therefore if you are in heaven surely you'd believe in God, and if you're not in heaven than you wouldn't believe in God.

 

Your actions tell us who you are. If you go around killing people, then you're probably a psycho. If you go around acting snobby, then you're probably a snob. If you act nice everywhere you go, then you're probably a nice guy. It doesn't mean it's necessarily right, but that's all we have to go on. If we can't judge him, we don't have a way of being able to tell if he's good or bad. So what's left? A neutral position. And if you're neutral towards him, I have to ask why you would want to worship him.

You completely missed my point again. You tried to negate my point by agreeing with it .... twice now...... so I'll spell it out for you.

I said

Secondly, I find the whole "if there is a God thenwhy am I here?/ Why is there suffering in the world?" thing to be quite pointless. To get the answers to these questions would be like reading the final page of an amazing book before reading the start. We are at the start of our own long story, why should we need to know what happens in the end when we haven't got the whole picture of information to make sense of it?

You should be able to slowly figure it out and make assesments about it such as in a book. Why am I here? and questions of the like is the same asking "Who is the Killer?" after reading the first page of a crime novel. Different aspects of life, ideas, with no detail being too small, need to be thought about to figure out the question. My point was it's extremely vague and it's all well and good to say "Why is there so much suffering in the world? If there is a God there wouldn't be any suffering?" but that's making a judgement on the whole world based on a sweeping generalisation without discussion of motives ect.

[Guest croweater]

I have no idea where the light debate came from. I think it had something to do with the sun "Dancing in the sky"

[Nighthawk 0]

It was chosen by us. God is outside of time.

Doesn't matter. If he knew you were going to pick frosted flakes before you did it, then you couldn't pick fruit loops.

 

He knew I was going to pick frosted flakes after I picked them, or while I was currently picking them, or before. The point is that there is no before, unless you're bound by time, which God is not.

 

 

Yeah, show me the word omnipotence in the Bible.

 

The Greek word translated impossible could be rendered "too difficult", the implication being that there is nothing God tries to do and can't.

 

Unless he tries to make 2+2 = 5 and tries to make that rock that he can't lift, then it becomes pretty difficult.

 

Taking the word impossible out and putting "too difficult" in doesn't change anything. It still means he can do everything!

 

No, there is a difference. He can't do anything. Impossible means he can do anything. Too difficult means, if he tries to do something, he does it.

 

Rev. 19:6,  "...for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth."

 

Now tell me what the Greek is...

 

No, I meant why by God's nature must he send someone there?

 

Because he created Hell for Satan (supposedly), who is ultimately deserving of Hell because he knew te full extent of God's glory and rejected him. That same passage in Romans I refered means that we are in the same position.

 

But according to you, that verse is wrong and God can't do the unpossible.

 

Ha ha. You're Ralph Wiggum. No, the verse doesn't say God can do the impossible. Genesis does say that God made light without the sun, therefore, it is not impossible.

 

The important part was that it didn't take just 6 days.  Do you honestly think the universe and Earth were both 6 days old when the first people appeared?  If so, how?  If not, how long did you think it took?

 

Sure, why not?

 

*thing about light*

 

You're wrong and you're not fooling anyone with this attempt to cover it up. Being wrong about one thing doesn't negate your entire argument, don't worry.

 

In regard to the sky, raqiya only meant solid.  Why?  Because all of the hebrews thought that the sky was solid.

 

No it didn't. By your wooden interpretation, Genesis says that the firmament was a solid wall beginning at sealevel. They didn't believe that.

 

Wow, that's some pretty fast evolution for all those new species to come about in 4000 years.

 

Yep, sure is.

 

Nevermind the impossibility of reproducing every population using 2 animals.

 

Ok.

 

If God wanted to use miracles, why wouldn't he just make a plague and have it kill everyone except for two of each species?  What the hell is the point of making a flood and having Noah build an ark?  Besides, if you go the "A wizard did it" route, why stop there?  Might as well say that God planted fossils in the ground to trick us, or the moon used to be a light but God turned it into a rock 1000 years later to test our faith, or God put contradictions in the bible just to amuse himself, maybe there used to be a solid platform in the sky but God dissolved it.  Maybe aliens came down and wrote the bible as a test to see how gullible people are.  Strange way to show how the bible is true.

 

He used a flood as a thematic counterbalance to the fire he would use later. That's not the wizard did it route either, by the way. That's me being bored.

 

It's silly enough that all of the other stuff isn't necessary, but that doesn't make it any less fun.  Where did all the water go?  Why is there no geological record of it?

 

The water was magicked away. This doesn't present a problem until you find a verse that says the water went away by natural means. Or, there were no oceans before then. Or Noah drank it. This is flawed reasoning again. It doesn't say how the water went away, something you could theoretically prove wrong, you are saying that because you don't know how it could, it didn't happen. There is a geological record of it.

 

I don't have to.  I can just say read Genesis for yourself and you can see that there aren't any gaps.  From Adam to Abraham, it tells you the name of each son and how old the father was when each one was born.  That's 2000 years.  Then 430 more years from the covenant with Abraham to the exodus.  And from 1 Kings, 480 years from the exodus to King Solomon.  If Solomon ever existed for real, that would be about 1000 BC.

 

You betray that you are a parrot and have done no research for yourself. This is flatly false and you are ignorant. Study further.

 

For another, the 6000 years was not even supposed to be the date of creation. It was determined by Archbishop Ussher by tracing recorded history, the very thing you attempt to discredit it with.

 

So?

 

So you have no point.

 

Not true.  Mention is made, but you don't think it's supposed to be taken literally.  Same with these verses I guess, Job 9:6, Psalms 93:1, and Psalms 104:5.  It would be nice if God had explained to them what the sun and earth actually did do so they wouldn't have been so confused.

 

I've explained to you what literal is not. You know Martin Luther King believed that freedom produced an audible ringing tone? What an idiot. And JFK thought he was from Berlin? Now that guy was deluded. You don't know anything about the books of Job, or Psalms. Do you even own a Bible or are you just getting this online?

 

Or maybe God is all the more stupider for using poetic language that they wouldn't be able to understand.  I mean, did God only write the bible so people after Galileo's time would understand it?

 

The Bible's been used for lots of evil things. Does Charlie Manson prove the White Album wrong? Should the Beatles be put on trial?

 

It would only not be a contradiction if the government didn't have people in it and they didn't kill.  Plus, what about Joshua and Moses?  Are they governments?  I'll pick some more after we get past this one.

 

It's still against the law to kill today, and we still do it as a government. If you can't distinguish between an individual acting as an agent of government and a civillian, go back to third grade. God can make individual commands, pertinent to a specific situation which supercede his general law. Also, he doesn't endorse every action made by someone in the Bible.

 

But abiogenesis doesn't have anything to do with evolution.  You could've just said you don't believe in the theory for the origin of life.

 

Ok, maybe I should have.

 

Free will to do what?  Believe in God?  Sure, I don't believe in predestination.  Although it's arguable just how much free control you have.  Culture and genetics obviously play a huge role.  Example: If you had born in India there would be a compltely different god you'd be sure of, and you would be defending the Hindu bible as literally true.  Think about that one for a minute.

 

You know, I think we've said enough about free will for the moment. Yeah, I might be defending it, but I'd be wrong. I'm defending the fulfillment of the Israelites Bible now, as an American. Think about that one for a minute.

 

If I fucked up and did a shitty job, let's say I worked for a car company and I designed a car that ran fine half the time and the other half of the time it would collapse and kill everyone inside, not only would I not expect to get paid, I would expect to get fired.  Maybe even sued or put in jail.

 

God didn't do a shitty job, and you've shifted the focus. God doesn't have to earn your praise.

 

I have to go for now, I'll finish this response later.

[Nighthawk 0]

Romans 1:18 through 2:16.

 

Instead of saying "the standard of salvation is proportionate to your capability", that's actually saying there's "no excuse".

 

Right. If you had never heard of Christ and salvation required a belief in him, that would be an excuse. It's not because the standard is different.

 

2 Sam. 12:23 refers to David's eventual death, nothing is said about the baby being in heaven

 

2 Sam 13:14 where Ammon rapes his sister doesn't say David's son is in heaven.

 

Hebrews 11:32 just lists David, doesn't say anything about his son going to heaven either.

 

If David goes to the baby when he dies, that means he and the baby went to the same place after death. The other two verses establish that David himself went to heaven. I meant 1 Samuel 13:14, sorry.

 

Show me the parent and maybe I won't cross the street.

 

I am.

 

The Invisible Magic Goat doesn't appreciate being brushed aside like that.  He created you, the least you can do for him is prove that he doesn't exist.

 

He doesn't exist because Jesus said he doesn't.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Did God know the future of what he was creating before he created it?

[Guest croweater]

God is outside of time.

So when the beginings were created so were the ends.

I don't believe God sees things in a linear fashion such as we do.

[Use Your Illusion 0]

Comprehending God, what a concept.

[Guest croweater]

Could any christians here please explain to me the purpose of going to church every Sunday (or whenever)?

[Stephen Joseph 0]

It's a time of reflection, of prayer, of being with God, what we are called to do.

 

Church though, really, is everywhere and not confined to a building. We're called to be reflective, honor God, and act in His ways both in and out of Church. In reality, Church is not a place, we just made one and called it that.

 

It's like practicing football for your team, or whatever. You have to keep sharp to be at your best. Sunday was chosen because it is the Sabbath day, and by God's will, we are not to work on the Sabbath, but reflect and spend time in worship and glorification of him.

 

Economically speaking, we go to church to retain our religious human capital, to derive the benefits of our investment into it, and to further develop it. It also provides time for other things, like being with family etc..

 

Some people go to church every day (Catholics tend to have a late day quickie mass around 5:30) Others go Wednesday and Sunday.

 

I hope that helps

[Guest croweater]

Reflection and prayer yes..... well, kind of. Church to me seems completely deprived of any form of discussion (I'm talking about the actual service here by the way, not just going and praying). Lessons and beliefs are being dictated to you from a priest. Although not to the extent of mind washing don't you fell that it must corrupt some into doing nothing but follow what the church says? I went every week for about 10 years. The more often I went the more repetative and bland it became. It's all: you will follow this and do this and you will be saved. In some instances it is okay, there is a lesson to be learn in most readings and most events, but the question is does it help people think for themselves, or does it prevent it?

 

I also don't really consider standing in silence to be "quality family time" quite the opposite infact.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

God is outside of time.

So when the beginings were created so were the ends.

 

Don't you see how this effects free will?

 

Think of it like dominoes. God set it all up, knew where it was heading to, and when he created life, he knocked over the first one.

[Nighthawk 0]

Sunday was chosen because it is the Sabbath day, and by God's will, we are not to work on the Sabbath, but reflect and spend time in worship and glorification of him.

Wrong. The Sabbath was Saturday, and it was Jewish. The New Testament says that we are no longer bound by the Sabbath. Christians gather on Sunday because it's the day Jesus rose. Forgive me for not quoting exactly, but there's a verse in Colossians which says one man honors one day above another, and another man doesn't, each according to their conviction, and it's fine either way.

[Guest SP-1]

The Church is the body of believers. Not a building. Not a certain day. We go to church to receive further teaching and instruction. While I'm not against evangelism in the pulpit, that isn't the Pastor's main purpose. Not biblically. Evangelism is the church's task as a whole. It is my task as a Christian. A Pastor's job is to shepherd, to counsel and to look after those that have united under his leadership in that particular community.

 

Church also served the purpose of a time of corporate worship for a community of believerse. While, yes, worship is at its a core a way of living and honoring God in your daily life, there is a need for social, purposed worship focused on God.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

For Chaosrage:

 

I myself believe that before the flood, there was only one continent. As you know, it's called Pangaea(sp?). The flood was caused by water rising from the Earth, which could help to seperate the continents and would eventually seperate into oceans. If you read, you'll see that before the flood there was no rain. The resulting moisture from the flood creates the moisture in the air and we have rain. This, of course, is my own theory which has no scientific backing. It's just what I like to think.

 

The discussion on Church:

 

Some churches meet twice a week (as far as I can tell mostly evangelical protestants.) This tradition started in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries here in the U.S. People would ride to church from miles around, and stay in the afternoon for lunch at another churchgoers house, or at the church. Before they would leave to go home, they would meet to pray for a safe journey. This is not as necessary anymore, as most people live within fifteen minutes of their church, but since it's tradition it's maintained. Which annoys the shit out of me.

[Nighthawk 0]

Some people go to church every day. Ask Steve Harvey.

[Nighthawk 0]

That interpretation of hell... Let's see.  The lake of fire in revelations, furnace of fire and wailing and gnashing of teeth in Matthew, Jesus's parable of Lazarus being tormented in flame, etc..

Ok. So for one, your recollection of Scripture is flawed, though you have the general idea. Quote the real verses if you want specific responses, but I'll give you the gist.

 

Let me start by saying that since Revelation is a book of prophecy, I don't claim to understand it fully. It's the book I find the most difficult to interpret.

 

So anyway, there really isn't a Hell in the old testament. They had Sheol, which was where everybody went when they died, good or bad, basically the eqivalent of the Greek Hades, which it was in fact translated as in the Septuagint. In the new testament, they did mention Hades, and they also had Gehenna, which was the ultimate Hell, where the damned would end up after Hades. Gehenna was the name of Jerusalem's city dump, which was constantly burning. Now if someone is spoken of as being thrown into Gehenna, which was the Judeans knew as a dump, it's not hard to see the connotation as being that they were thrown away, or discarded. The fact that Gehenna was on fire allows for much of the flame talk. Now, there would indeed be great sorrow and suffering in Hell, although you could say it comes from the absence of God. You might even say that God is saying "You don't want me? Ok, I will leave you to yourself." This is a choice a person made, a choice you've implied God should let us have, in fact, but it still results in a sorrowful and regretable state, that being, separation from God. Jesus parable about the rich man and Lazarus was just that. A parable. He told many which weren't to be believed literally.

[Guest croweater]

God is outside of time.

So when the beginings were created so were the ends.

 

Don't you see how this effects free will?

 

Think of it like dominoes. God set it all up, knew where it was heading to, and when he created life, he knocked over the first one.

Free will and fate are independant of each other.

 

The Church is the body of believers. Not a building. Not a certain day. We go to church to receive further teaching and instruction. While I'm not against evangelism in the pulpit, that isn't the Pastor's main purpose. Not biblically. Evangelism is the church's task as a whole. It is my task as a Christian. A Pastor's job is to shepherd, to counsel and to look after those that have united under his leadership in that particular community.

You need someone to tell you how to live your life? That's what you are saying. You go to church to get instructions on how you should live. Is a shepherd's job not just to get the sheep to follow him?

 

Church also served the purpose of a time of corporate worship for a community of believerse. While, yes, worship is at its a core a way of living and honoring God in your daily life, there is a need for social, purposed worship focused on God.

Could you explain this further. Why is it neccessary to worship God in these ways, and how does going to mass accomplish this?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Free will and fate are independant of each other.

 

Free Will is dictated to us by our present and our past, aka our circumstances. God created our circumstances.

 

And for Prayer and Church, I'll throw out Mathew 6:5 for discussion.

[Guest SP-1]

The Church is the body of believers. Not a building. Not a certain day. We go to church to receive further teaching and instruction. While I'm not against evangelism in the pulpit, that isn't the Pastor's main purpose. Not biblically. Evangelism is the church's task as a whole. It is my task as a Christian. A Pastor's job is to shepherd, to counsel and to look after those that have united under his leadership in that particular community.

You need someone to tell you how to live your life? That's what you are saying. You go to church to get instructions on how you should live. Is a shepherd's job not just to get the sheep to follow him?

 

Church also served the purpose of a time of corporate worship for a community of believerse. While, yes, worship is at its a core a way of living and honoring God in your daily life, there is a need for social, purposed worship focused on God.

Could you explain this further. Why is it neccessary to worship God in these ways, and how does going to mass accomplish this?

I go to church to recieve teaching from the Bible, which is a pretty big book with multiple levels of investigation required to be properly understood. God gave us His Word to reveal Himself to us and what He deems as the right way to live. A pastor's job is to teach those that are a part of his community what the Bible says properly. The Bible is not a book that is open to individual, mass interpretation. It's purpose is to understand what God is saying. For the general community of believers, it is a pastor's job to teach this information and guide them based on what God has set down as right.

 

Do I need God to tell me what's right? You bet. In and of myself, I'll usually make a selfish or sinful decision on some level. I may not always choose what's wrong on the outside, but inside my motivations and reasons might still be sinful. If not for God, I wouldn't know right from wrong. No one would. I need God to tell me what He has said is right. Thankfully, He's given me a Bible to learn from and has called pastors to teach it accurately. I also study the Bible on a scholarly level to properly interpret it on my own.

 

 

For your second question:

 

Human beings are created to be social. Individual worship is great and we are called to do it. But God has always called the individuals He is involved with to be a distinct people as well. The act of worship is a part of that aspect of humanity as well. Worshipping together as a united people, focused on God is not only something that binds us closer together as a people, but is, frankly, something that God deserves. He is God, after all.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Isn't there also a verse in the New Testament that says not to forsake the gathering of believers? If not, I'm going to have to kill my mom for quoting it to me so much.