Something that's been bugging me

[Jingus 0]

In a lot of posts and show reviews, I've noticed recently that the stiffer a match is, the more it tends to be praised.

 

Why is that? Wrestling is fake, it's a work; we've all known that for years. What makes a match better when the wrestlers are legitimately beating the shit out of each other? I've seen guys like Samoa Joe, Super Dragon, Low-Ki, and so on be praised ridiculously by fans for how hard they hit other people. And I've known plenty of workers who actually pride themselves on stiffing the hell out of their opponents. To them, I say: try that on Tracey Smothers, and good luck surviving the night.

 

To me, this is stupid. Hitting another guy REALLY hard may pop the crowd tonight, but it tends to cause injuries and shorten careers in the long term. To me, a lot of the stiffness marks are the modern-day equivalent of the "vampires" back in the ECW days of the 90s, guys who didn't give a shit about the show, the match, or the wrestlers; all they wanted to see was somebody bleed a lot. Lots of smart marks today seem like they'll bury a match unless it's stiff, and I think that attitude is selfish and physically unrealistic.

 

Thoughts?

[The Mandarin 0]

I'd agree, because I have more compassion for the performers than the average wrestling fan. Maybe it's the fear of taking such painful moves myself, but shit like Low Ki's kicks bother me.

[razazteca 0]

After years of watching Hulk Hogan matches the fans need something to grab hold on to say "yeah this is why I like pro wrestling" You see the stiffness in some crazy way makes them think that wrestling is a sport rather than a scripted dance of acrobatics and cliches.

[Jingus 0]

It's not just the average fans, though; its more the smart marks than anything. Like the guys who'll claim that Kawada is the greatest wrestler of his time, and simply ignore the fact that he's obviously kicking guys right in the face way too hard.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

and I think that attitude is selfish and physically unrealistic.

 

*ding ding ding*

 

A buddy of mine made a really good point about this, while specifically talking about Lo-Ki/Samoa Joe.

 

Samoa Joe has what, a hundred pounds on Lo-Ki? If you're going to go out and really hit each other, the LEAST you can do is make it look realistic. By all rights, if Samoa Joe really clocked Ki, Ki should be DEAD.

 

I think wrestling stiff is OK, but only if done right. Like, if two guys want to really slug it out, that's fine - but if one guy just decides to rough up another without his consent, well, he's a fucking dickhead.

 

And if you're going to wrestle stiff, SELL IT. Wrestling stiff and no-selling is borderline retarded.

[Guest Ray]

Like the guys who'll claim that Kawada is the greatest wrestler of his time, and simply ignore the fact that he's obviously kicking guys right in the face way too hard.

You say that as if Kawada kicking too hard somehow makes him NOT a great wrestler.

 

Stiffness can get across the intensity and hatred in a feud. What's more heated - two guys in WWE throwing horribly fake punches, or Misawa/Kawada elbowing/kicking each other to death? Stiffness can have a purpose.

[Jingus 0]

Well, that brings a story to mind. I know a guy who works for Pro Wrestling Iron, and he passed along one of the stories one of the vets told him. Apparently, one big reason why Kawada wasn't taken along in the NOAH defection was a nasty little trick he had: whenever he was pissed off for some reason, doing a job he didn't want to do or whatever, Kawada would do his damndest to actually knock out his opponent in the ring, and then "apologize" for it once he got to the back. Hell, even Dr. Death bitched about Kawada being too stiff. (That's all I'm saying on the subject, I don't want this to turn into another "Taue's chokeslam" type flamefest.)

 

Yeah, some "horribly fake punches" can bring down a match. Austin's wussy punches always bugged me during his last few years, for example. But it's completely possible to have great looking strikes in a match that never even touch the other guy. Bobby Eaton is one example; when I had the honor of working with him a few times, he hit me with some shots that looked like they were knocking my jaw off; I hardly felt a thing.

[The Niggardly King 0]

I think it is okay for a major feud of two guys that hate each other...it's alright by me, as long as they have the other person's consent.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

As Bret Hart would have told you, it's a hell of a lot harder to make it look like you're killing the guy without ever actually hurting him.

 

I suppose you could argue, in SOME cases, stiffness is a replacement for talent. Can't do anything really good? Well, just punch him REALLY HARD.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

I think stiffness has its place in that it can help the suspension of disbelief. Things like LowKi's kicks and Benoit's chops I can understand, since it's obvious both men have solid control over what they're doing (Jerry Lynn said he would rather take a kick from LowKi than one from Tajiri, because LowKi controlled his kicks better). But stiffing for the sake of stiffing? That's bullshit and should be punished by either management or the other wrestlers.

 

Wasn't there a case of one wrestler, probably a jobber, trying to stiff a JTTS in WWF once? And then the JTTS roughed him up pretty bad, but kept the match going? I'm not thinking of the Saturn/Belle situation, but I think Regal was a part of this. He got roughed up because the jobber was trying to get himself over, so he unleashed some vicious chops and locked on his submission holds tighter.

[Guest Staravenger]

For those who don't know, the Saturn incident was the jobber messing up a spot or two, and Saturn just completely stiffing him the rest of the match. Someone thought this was unprofessional (probably Vince), and thus Saturn got paired up with a mop and left over scripts of Vince Russo's from WCW.

[DCMaximo 0]

I think it depends on who is taking the stiffness and the context of the match. For example, watching last years Ted Petty Invitational, Ian Rotten unleashing the stiffness on Mickie Knuckles isn't entertaining and takes away from the match, because Ian's clearly beating the hell out of her. However, watching B-Boy vs JC Bailey IS entertaining because we know that Bailey can take an ass-kicking and that B-Boy isn't just kicking JC to hurt him, but to make the match look better.

[Guest curry_man2002]

I agree with both points you shouldnt have wrestlers intentionally hitting each other to cause injury but the show must look real cus thats what wrestling is all about making the fan beleive that what he is seeing is real fighting.

 

what gripes me about wrestling and wwe in paticular is how toned down the violence aspect has become now i know all this shortening carrers buisness is a threat but high risk moves and blood flow is what i have become to expect since becoming a fan in 2000 so to suddenly have this taken away in the last couple of years has really bugged me because i dont believe in all this 15 minute resthold/psycology.

[Jingus 0]

I agree with both points you shouldnt have wrestlers intentionally hitting each other to cause injury but the show must look real cus thats what wrestling is all about making the fan beleive that what he is seeing is real fighting.

Wrestling isn't about looking like "a real fight", and it hasn't been about that ever since the first guy got Irish whipped into the ropes and bounced back. Everyone (with the exception of a few kids and retards) knows it's fake.

 

what gripes me about wrestling and wwe in paticular is how toned down the violence aspect has become now i know all this shortening carrers buisness is a threat but high risk moves and blood flow is what i have become to expect since becoming a fan in 2000 so to suddenly have this taken away in the last couple of years has really bugged me because i dont believe in all this 15 minute resthold/psycology.

 

Blood isn't that much of a problem to me. If a guy wants to scar up his own forehead, that's his business, and it really doesn't affect a person's quality of life that much. But high-risk moves cripple wrestlers and shorten careers. And I don't think any fan can reasonably "expect" any wrestler to put his life on the line for them. Yeah, the fans pay the bills, but unless you're going to front row Wrestlemania, you ain't paying that much for wrestling, especially considering it airs free on TV four or five times a week.

 

This leads into a side argument about another thing that bugs me: when fans complain about the matches that guys like Jeff Hardy or Sabu have these days. Lots of people bitching about how they're "broken down" and the matches suck because of it. Well, what do you think broke them? Doing the sick crap they did, murdering themselves to entertain people. Don't whine about how Sabu used to be cool but he sucks now; one caused the other.

[Promoter 0]

I agree with both points you shouldnt have wrestlers intentionally hitting each other to cause injury but the show must look real cus thats what wrestling is all about making the fan beleive that what he is seeing is real fighting.

Wrestling isn't about looking like "a real fight", and it hasn't been about that ever since the first guy got Irish whipped into the ropes and bounced back.

Tell Kevin Nash that as that is where I believe curry_man got that idea from. Nash stated this on the A and E special. Of course, what the hell does the man who booked wcw to hell know

 

Besides, I think Kayfabe would have a little disagreement with you about this. I heard she is Ric Flair's ex-girl with an attitude about internet fanboys.

[Jingus 0]

Oh, please don't talk to me about kayfabe. The indy shows I work have some of the most godawful backwoods rednecks in attendence, some of the last few remaning on earth who Still Believe, and I've had to try and explain bullshit to them without exposing the business on many occasions. You haven't lived until you've been cornered by a big semi-retarded ex-convict who's yelling about how none of the wrestlers are hitting each other hard enough.

[Guest Dynamite Kido]

This leads into a side argument about another thing that bugs me: when fans complain about the matches that guys like Jeff Hardy or Sabu have these days. Lots of people bitching about how they're "broken down" and the matches suck because of it. Well, what do you think broke them? Doing the sick crap they did, murdering themselves to entertain people. Don't whine about how Sabu used to be cool but he sucks now; one caused the other.

I think more people are complaining because Hardy/Sabu don't wrestle anything that is remotely close to a match that makes sense. When those two are in the ring it comes off as I'm lazy, I don't care, type thing. Otherwise, if people are bitching about them being "broken down".......then they honestly have no clue what they are talking about.....

[Jingus 0]

I've not seen them in what I'd call a "lazy" performance, though. Yeah, they're both a LOT slower than they used to be and take fewer risks, but massive permanent injuries tend to do that to ya.

[Guest Contentious C]

Like the guys who'll claim that Kawada is the greatest wrestler of his time, and simply ignore the fact that he's obviously kicking guys right in the face way too hard.

I'll take the word of "those guys" over the words of those who'd rather devalue the rest of his accomplishments just for working stiff.

 

whenever he was pissed off for some reason, doing a job he didn't want to do or whatever, Kawada would do his damndest to actually knock out his opponent in the ring, and then "apologize" for it once he got to the back. Hell, even Dr. Death bitched about Kawada being too stiff.

Oh, yeah, because Morgan and Modest are the most honest and trustworthy people the world has ever known. Yeah. And Terry Funk was dead-on when he said Masato Tanaka was a better worker than Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi in 1996.

 

Something tells me the phrase "smart mark" is being applied to the wrong person or persons in this thread.

[Jingus 0]

Hi Chris. I wondered if you were gonna show up for this one.

 

About Kawada: yes, he is a damn good wrestler. I've never claimed otherwise. My only point here: in a worked pro wrestling match, it's a far, far better thing to be able to look like you're really kicking someone in the face than to actually do it.

 

Oh, yeah, because Morgan and Modest are the most honest and trustworthy people the world has ever known. Yeah. And Terry Funk was dead-on when he said Masato Tanaka was a better worker than Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi in 1996.

 

So you're saying I should take your word over that of the guys who've actually wrestled in Japan?

[Guest Contentious C]

About Kawada: yes, he is a damn good wrestler.  I've never claimed otherwise.  My only point here: in a worked pro wrestling match, it's a far, far better thing to be able to look like you're really kicking someone in the face than to actually do it.

Because it's so bad, awful, evil, and naughty. It's wrestling. There is contact.

 

And out of all those kicks to the head & face, how many times did he actually injure someone? What, twice? And how many dates did Misawa miss due to his broken orbital?

 

And by the way, where's the hate for Manabu Nakanishi's stiffness? You saw what he did to Takayama's chest in 02, didn't you? Or Tenryu, for that matter? Or Hashimoto? Oh, but wait - you don't have the boys in the back telling stories for you, do ya?

 

Oh, yeah, because Morgan and Modest are the most honest and trustworthy people the world has ever known. Yeah. And Terry Funk was dead-on when he said Masato Tanaka was a better worker than Misawa/Kawada/Kobashi in 1996.

 

So you're saying I should take your word over that of the guys who've actually wrestled in Japan?

What "word" of mine are you taking? Am I telling you that I've talked to wrestlers over there and they've told me different stories?? Nice reading comprehension skills, bucko. I can see why you're a hanger-on in this business rather than doing something real in some other area of life. If you want to swallow somebody's story as the gospel, go right ahead - it's a business full of people who are full of shit, and you've always been just the kind of mark they're looking for. You should read that column of Bret Hart's - maybe for your next act, you can tear down Flair. Especially for all those matches against Steamboat that were too stiff.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'm interested in the fact that Williams! said he was too stiff. Was that from an interview on the internet? If so, I'd like to see it because I'm a fan of Williams. Didn't Storm say he knew guys that got busted up by Kawada too?

[Jingus 0]

Because it's so bad, awful, evil, and naughty. It's wrestling. There is contact.

No shit there's contact. Unlike you, I've actually felt that contact in the ring. I've been hit by everyone from the Harris twins to Gypsy Joe, so I feel pretty confident that I know more about the difference between worked and stiff than you do.

 

And out of all those kicks to the head & face, how many times did he actually injure someone?  What, twice?  And how many dates did Misawa miss due to his broken orbital? 

And by the way, where's the hate for Manabu Nakanishi's stiffness?  You saw what he did to Takayama's chest in 02, didn't you?  Or Tenryu, for that matter?  Or Hashimoto?  Oh, but wait - you don't have the boys in the back telling stories for you, do ya?

 

I was just naming one example. Of course there are plenty of wrestlers who are plenty stiff.

 

What "word" of mine are you taking?  Am I telling you that I've talked to wrestlers over there and they've told me different stories?? Nice reading comprehension skills, bucko. 

 

Tracey Smothers told me that Kawada kicked him too damn hard. I'll believe him before I believe you.

 

I can see why you're a hanger-on in this business rather than doing something real in some other area of life.    If you want to swallow somebody's story as the gospel, go right ahead - it's a business full of people who are full of shit, and you've always been just the kind of mark they're looking for.  You should read that column of Bret Hart's - maybe for your next act, you can tear down Flair.  Especially for all those matches against Steamboat that were too stiff.

 

Ya know Chris, these condescending tirades of yours used to really piss me off. I'm sure you remember as well as I do. But now, to me, you're just another mark who thinks he knows wrestling better than the people who actually work in the business. Funny how a "hanger-on" like me has been the primary play-by-play announcer on my local wrestling TV show for almost the past three years now. And I'm damn good at it, too. If you don't believe me, just ask Scott Hudson or Joel Gertner or any of the Wildside announce team, they've all worked with me. I already have the trust and respect of the type of people I care about. Ricky Morton told me I was good at my job; with many comments like that in my memory, you calling me a mark just doesn't hurt my feelings at all, strangely enough.

[Jingus 0]

I'm interested in the fact that Williams! said he was too stiff. Was that from an interview on the internet? If so, I'd like to see it because I'm a fan of Williams. Didn't Storm say he knew guys that got busted up by Kawada too?

Yeah, it was in the shoot interview he did with RFVideo, he said that he never really liked working with Kawada, either in the ring or in a promotional sense. Never heard the Storm story.

[Guest Contentious C]

Because it's so bad, awful, evil, and naughty.  It's wrestling.  There is contact.

No shit there's contact. Unlike you, I've actually felt that contact in the ring. I've been hit by everyone from the Harris twins to Gypsy Joe, so I feel pretty confident that I know more about the difference between worked and stiff than you do.

So you only REALLY know what it's like once you get in the ring, huh? But by that argument, you'd know just as much about how stiff Kawada works as I do. Smooth one. Can you try to make this harder??

 

Tracey Smothers told me that Kawada kicked him too damn hard.  I'll believe him before I believe you.

That's hardly a surprise to hear, coming from someone whose 'karate kicks' look weaker than a cat swatting a mouse. But hey, believe what you want.

 

Awfully convenient of you to just blurt out remarks like this, too. Ever hear of a thing called "context"? If you ask someone straight-up, "What did you think of Worker X?" and they say "he worked too stiff," then that comment is probably has some validity as an opinion. But, if you get into a discussion with someone about working a kick or an elbow and you mention "Oh, Worker X is a good case - he always looked like he was hitting someone really hard," and the person responds, "Yeah, you're right," it's far less trustworthy. In the legal world - you know, one of those real jobs? - they call it 'leading the witness,' and it usually ends up being useless as testimony. You might do well to think about that once in a while.

 

Ya know Chris, these condescending tirades of yours used to really piss me off.  I'm sure you remember as well as I do.  But now, to me, you're just another mark who thinks he knows wrestling better than the people who actually work in the business.

"Think"??

 

You tell me all I need to know with your willingness to throw around the word "mark" like it means something. Now all of a sudden, you know where my money is going? You know what shows I attend? You know for a fact I've put money in your pocket before?

 

Get a clue, kid. I haven't even been to a Wildside show in well over 2 years. You don't even deserve the right to think of the word 'mark' in reference to me until I actually pay for something you're involved with.

 

Funny how a "hanger-on" like me has been the primary play-by-play announcer on my local wrestling TV show for almost the past three years now.

Tony Schiavone was the primary PBP guy for WCW for a lot longer than that. He sucked for a lot longer than three years, too. JR's been around for a lot longer than three years, and he's sucked for a lot longer than three years, too.

 

Holding on to the same job for an extended period of time is rarely a sign of competence. Try again.

 

And I'm damn good at it, too.  If you don't believe me, just ask Scott Hudson or Joel Gertner or any of the Wildside announce team, they've all worked with me.

Pfffffffffftahahahahaha! Yeah. Don Wilson - there's another one who wouldn't try to bullshit anyone, too. HAR!

 

you calling me a mark just doesn't hurt my feelings at all, strangely enough

Yet you are a mark, nonetheless. Just a very different kind from the one who buys a ticket and plays along with all the faces & heels.

[Guest wildpegasus]

I'm interested in the fact that Williams! said he was too stiff. Was that from an interview on the internet? If so, I'd like to see it because I'm a fan of Williams. Didn't Storm say he knew guys that got busted up by Kawada too?

Yeah, it was in the shoot interview he did with RFVideo, he said that he never really liked working with Kawada, either in the ring or in a promotional sense. Never heard the Storm story.

Well, I despise RF Video with a passion for multiple reasons so I won't be picking that up from there. Have to go somewhere's else if I do indeed decide to pick it up.

 

 

Jingus, so you've wrestled before or are you currently wrestling?

[The Thread Killer 0]

Oh for gawd's sake...please don't ENCOURAGE Dingus in his namedropping.

[Coffin Surfer 0]

My only point here: in a worked pro wrestling match, it's a far, far better thing to be able to look like you're really kicking someone in the face than to actually do it.

 

Because the Gamengiri is a legit kick to the face. Whatever.

 

Didn't Storm say he knew guys that got busted up by Kawada too?

 

Storm made some horseshit comments about Kawada not being able to work with someone with a bad neck. Nevermind that Misawa had a bad neck in 94 and Kawada still had a certain classic with him. (rollseyes).

 

So you're saying I should take your word over that of the guys who've actually wrestled in Japan?

 

If Funk said something stupid like that, I don't give fuck who or where he wrestled.

 

As far Dr. Death goes, he also said that when people think of wrestling they think of Hulk Hogan and Steven Williams in that same interview. My how credible he his. Give me a fucking break.

[Jingus 0]

Hmmm, Dymond and Coffin? Guess I must've made the Idiots thread over at Spidertwist. Gee Chris, thanks for the notoriety.

 

So you only REALLY know what it's like once you get in the ring, huh? But by that argument, you'd know just as much about how stiff Kawada works as I do. Smooth one. Can you try to make this harder??

 

I hate trotting out the old "You can't say SHIT unless you're a WORKER" argument, cuz I've had it used on me by plenty of wannabes myself. But, the fact remains: there are certain things about wrestling that you'll only learn by actually doing it, that cannot be adequately grasped by any other means. This isn't boy's club bullshit, it's the truth. Any wrestler, no matter how modest or honest a person they happen to be, will agree with me here.

 

That's hardly a surprise to hear, coming from someone whose 'karate kicks' look weaker than a cat swatting a mouse. But hey, believe what you want.

 

Clearly you know nothing about the real Smothers, who's one of the legit toughest guys in the entire industry. I've heard plenty of stories about him almost beating various guys to death when he got pissed off. Even rough types like New Jack back off from Tracey.

 

Awfully convenient of you to just blurt out remarks like this, too. Ever hear of a thing called "context"? If you ask someone straight-up, "What did you think of Worker X?" and they say "he worked too stiff," then that comment is probably has some validity as an opinion. But, if you get into a discussion with someone about working a kick or an elbow and you mention "Oh, Worker X is a good case - he always looked like he was hitting someone really hard," and the person responds, "Yeah, you're right," it's far less trustworthy. In the legal world - you know, one of those real jobs? - they call it 'leading the witness,' and it usually ends up being useless as testimony. You might do well to think about that once in a while.

 

That's the thing, I DID ask him straight-up, and he answered me the same way.

 

You tell me all I need to know with your willingness to throw around the word "mark" like it means something.

 

You threw the word out first.

 

Now all of a sudden, you know where my money is going? You know what shows I attend? You know for a fact I've put money in your pocket before?

 

Get a clue, kid. I haven't even been to a Wildside show in well over 2 years. You don't even deserve the right to think of the word 'mark' in reference to me until I actually pay for something you're involved with.

 

So, in order to be a mark, you have to attend live shows which are staffed by people who referred to you as such? That's fairly complicated.

 

Tony Schiavone was the primary PBP guy for WCW for a lot longer than that. He sucked for a lot longer than three years, too. JR's been around for a lot longer than three years, and he's sucked for a lot longer than three years, too.

Holding on to the same job for an extended period of time is rarely a sign of competence. Try again.

 

I bring up a specific example of how I really am employed and working in professional wrestling and are not just hanging around like you claimed... so you change the subject to deriding my ability (which you've never seen or heard) by making fun of other completely different people? Heh. Nice trick.

 

Pfffffffffftahahahahaha! Yeah. Don Wilson - there's another one who wouldn't try to bullshit anyone, too. HAR!

 

Firstly, his name's Dan. Secondly, I know him pretty well, so I doubt that he'd bullshit me over stuff that makes no difference. Thirdly: if you were gonna make fun of anybody in that list for being flakey, you could've at least gone with the obvious choice and picked Gertner.

 

Yet you are a mark, nonetheless. Just a very different kind from the one who buys a ticket and plays along with all the faces & heels.

 

Marks never get paid. I always do.

 

Jingus, so you've wrestled before or are you currently wrestling?

 

Like I said before, I'm mostly an announcer and manager, but I've had a few matches. Admittedly, most of them were less-than-great and rarely went over 10 minutes, but I had fun.

 

Oh for gawd's sake...please don't ENCOURAGE Dingus in his namedropping.

 

Oh, that wasn't even a tenth of the namedropping I'm capable of. I can produce more random namedrops than a recent Misawa/Kobashi match can throw out headdrops.

 

Because the Gamengiri is a legit kick to the face. Whatever.

 

No, but his running big boot sure as hell tends to be.

 

Storm made some horseshit comments about Kawada not being able to work with someone with a bad neck. Nevermind that Misawa had a bad neck in 94 and Kawada still had a certain classic with him. (rollseyes).

 

Once again: Storm has actually been there and done that, while we're just talking about it. I'd rather trust Storm's opinion on the matter than yours.

 

If Funk said something stupid like that, I don't give fuck who or where he wrestled.

 

Despite damn near everyone who ever knew him's testimony that Funk is one of the smartest guys in wrestling?

 

As far Dr. Death goes, he also said that when people think of wrestling they think of Hulk Hogan and Steven Williams in that same interview. My how credible he his. Give me a fucking break.

 

Yes, Steve was full of shit when it came to his delusions of grandeur about his place in the business. Lots of guys are. Still doesn't change his ability to tell if someone's hitting him really hard in the face.

[Guest wildpegasus]

My only point here: in a worked pro wrestling match, it's a far, far better thing to be able to look like you're really kicking someone in the face than to actually do it.

 

Because the Gamengiri is a legit kick to the face. Whatever.

 

Didn't Storm say he knew guys that got busted up by Kawada too?

 

Storm made some horseshit comments about Kawada not being able to work with someone with a bad neck. Nevermind that Misawa had a bad neck in 94 and Kawada still had a certain classic with him. (rollseyes).

 

So you're saying I should take your word over that of the guys who've actually wrestled in Japan?

 

If Funk said something stupid like that, I don't give fuck who or where he wrestled.

 

As far Dr. Death goes, he also said that when people think of wrestling they think of Hulk Hogan and Steven Williams in that same interview. My how credible he his. Give me a fucking break.

All right we do know Kawada works stiff. I mean, everyone in All Japan did. The question is was he stiffer than all the others? Dynamite too said Kawada worked stiff but ("sometimes a little too stiff"} he didn't elude to who was stiffer because he made that comment about both Misawa and Kawada. Seemed to imply those were the stiffest matches he had in ALL Japan where he taped up his fist just in case stuff got out of hand because the matches were just like a shootout at the OK Carrel (forgive my spelling on that) Especially at the end of a tour.

 

Willams comments or anyone else's for that matter should not be immediatly discredited because of credibility they say over a "completely" different matter. You can discredit pratically anyone anyway. Williams would know as well as anyone.The question is would he have a reason to lie about Kawada's stiffness? I mean making comments like that would hurt his tough guy reputation. It wouldn't make sense for him to say something like that.

 

Storm is not known to be a liar and I believe he did make comments on his site that people he knew told him that Kawada was too stiff and indeed did bang them up some.