Angels/Red Sox ALDS Thread

[the max 0]

He (K-Rod) gave his team a fighting chance. After 2.2 innings of work, Scoscia believed that K-Rod was tired. If it wasn't for K-Rod, the game ends earlier. He gave them what they needed.

[Guest Anglesault]

He (K-Rod) gave his team a fighting chance. After 2.2 innings of work, Scoscia believed that K-Rod was tired.

based on what, exactly? Making Manny look silly?

 

Be serious. He went from one of the best relievers in baseball to the mediocre Washburn because he wanted lefty vs. lefty.

 

If Shrek kills a K-Rod pitch, there's not much you can say.

 

When you take Rodriguez out and the other guy gets killed right away, there's an issue.

[Slayer 0]

Dammit, thanks to work I apparently missed some amazing baseball, but the Red Sox won and that's all I ask

 

Also I see Anglesault is bitching, being antagonistic and no-selling people calling him out

 

So in other words, nothing's new

[Guest Anglesault]

Dammit, thanks to work I apparently missed some amazing baseball, but the Red Sox won and that's all I ask

 

Also I see Anglesault is bitching, being contrary and no-selling people calling him out

 

So in other words, nothing's new

You forgot to note how Max refuses to say how Jarrod Washburn gave the Angels a better shot at winning than K-Rod

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Dammit, thanks to work I apparently missed some amazing baseball, but the Red Sox won and that's all I ask

 

Also I see Anglesault is bitching, being contrary and no-selling people calling him out

 

So in other words, nothing's new

You forgot to note how Max refuses to say how Jarrod Washburn gave the Angels a better shot at winning than K-Rod

This season, Francisco Rodriguez allowed a .212 batting average against lefties, while Jarrod Washburn allowed a .225 average against lefties. The situational split there cuts the difference to twelve points. But there is more. Ortiz is an EXTREME platoon player. He hit 326/411/671 against righties, and 250/315/469 against lefties. That's a difference of over 200 points of OPS. Ortiz is a completely different pitcher against lefties. Then we consider that Rodriguez had pitched over two innings, while Washburn was fresh. And finally, Ortiz is just 2-7 lifetime against Washburn.

[Guest Anglesault]

This season, Francisco Rodriguez allowed a .212 batting average against lefties, while Jarrod Washburn allowed a .225 average against lefties. The situational split there cuts the difference to twelve points. But there is more. Ortiz is an EXTREME platoon player. He hit 326/411/671 against righties, and 250/315/469 against lefties. That's a difference of over 200 points of OPS. Ortiz is a completely different pitcher against lefties.

I don't care if David Ortiz is the leftiest lefty that ever leftied. You do NOT go to an inferior pitcher when your season is on the line. You have one of the best relievers in baseball in the game. If he can't get the man out, chances are Washburn isn't either. You act as if Rodriguez was so incapable of getting Ortiz out that this move was necessary.

 

The guy saw a lefty coming up, spasmed, went into "Only a lefthander can get this man out" mode and fucked the Angels all to hell.

 

Then we consider that Rodriguez had pitched over two innings

 

And still looked damn good.

[Guest Anglesault]

 

I don't get it.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Al, showing AS stats is useless. He doesn't get that in baseball, nothing's for sure and that even when the numbers suggest one thing, the opposite may happen. Ortiz typically doesn't hit lefties at all. Thus, it was a good idea to go to a lefty. It didn't pan out, but had he brought in the lefty and he'd gotten Ortiz out, people would've praised the great managerial move.

[Guest Anglesault]

Al, showing AS stats is useless.  He doesn't get that in baseball, nothing's for sure and that even when the numbers suggest one thing, the opposite may happen.  Ortiz typically doesn't hit lefties at all.

So you would have been happy taking K-Rod out and sending me out there. I throw with my left hand. Am I more likely to get David Ortiz out?

 

The quality of the two pitchers has to be taken into account as well.

 

I assume Bruiser and al feel that in an ALCS, should the Yankees make it, and Ortiz comes up in the late innings, the prudent thing would be to take Tom Gordon or Mariano Rivera out and throw in Felix Heredia.

 

Francisco Rodriguez is a great pitcher. Probably the best one on that team. He's also quite capable of getting a lefty out. He's your go to guy when the season is on the line.

Edited October 9, 2004 by Anglesault

[Guest GreatOne]

But you see Al doesn't believe in that stuff........too 'clutch' related

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Are you a major league pitcher, AS? If so, I'll concede defeat, but if you aren't, then pipe down. Is Washburn as good a pitcher as K-Rod? No, but he's certainly no slouch, regardless of what Game 1 may have illustrated.

 

If you're not going to go by stats, then what about the fact that K-Rod had thrown 38 pitches in his 2.2 innings of work. This is for a guy who's used to working one inning or maybe 1.1 innings, tops. Had he left K-Rod in there and given up the game-winning shot to Ortiz, we'd have a clone of fallout to Wednesday night in New York, where Gardenhire took heat for leaving Nathan, a guy accustomed to working one inning, in there for three innings.

 

On top of that, K-Rod was clearly tiring, which only made it look more like a carbon copy of the Nathan situation. But I guess he should've left him there, just because he was their best pitcher, right? We'll just ignore the fact that he had already gone much further than he ever did during the rest of the season and that he was just about out of gas when he did get the hook.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

I'll add that I think it's funny how some people (not necessarily around here) are calling for Scoscia's job over this. This is one of the smartest managers in the game and just because one of his moves didn't go the way he wanted it do doesn't mean he should be out of a job.

 

Some are comparing it to the Grady Little thing. Please. In both cases, the pitchers were tiring and clearly at the end of their rope. Thus, bringing in a new pitcher wasn't as insane as others have made it out to be.

[Guest Anglesault]

Is Washburn as good a pitcher as K-Rod? No, but he's certainly no slouch, regardless of what Game 1 may have illustrated.

Yes, he's the very definition of mediocre. He's who I want MY season resting on.

 

If you're not going to go by stats, then what about the fact that K-Rod had thrown 38 pitches in his 2.2 innings of work. This is for a guy who's used to working one inning or maybe 1.1 innings, tops.

 

And he still looked good. He had just made one of (if not the best) hitter in the AL look foolish.

 

Had he left K-Rod in there and given up the game-winning shot to Ortiz, we'd have a clone of fallout to Wednesday night in New York, where Gardenhire took heat for leaving Nathan, a guy accustomed to working one inning, in there for three innings.

 

Gardenhire wasn't facing elimination either. Gardenhire had the option to go to the BP scrubs and risk losing the game.

 

On top of that, K-Rod was clearly tiring, which only made it look more like a carbon copy of the Nathan situation. But I guess he should've left him there, just because he was their best pitcher, right?

He was still their best option. If Washburn was a very good pitcher, there wouldn't be a problem.

 

But in the bottom of the 10th, with the season on the line, he went to a career middle of the road pitcher who looked like shit only three days prior.

 

Because he happened to pitch with his left hand.

[UZI Suicide 0]

Scioscia is a great manager and his subbing in pinch hitters and management of the game when the Angels were down to set up Vlad with bases loaded is the only reason they were even in the fucking game.

 

Anglesault, did you think Grady Little was smart for keeping in Pedro last year? And was Ron Gardenhire smart for keeping in Joe Nathan last week?

 

K-Rod never went 3 innings this season, and Ortiz crushes righties. Now if you know anything about baseball, you know managers love the righty-righty, lefty-lefty matchups. Every manager does it, they do it all the time. In that situation, any other manager in the game would have done it, even the almighty Joe Torre.

 

If Washbur gets Ortiz out, Scioscia is a genius. If Lowe had gotten beaten all over the park like he usually did this season when Francona put him in, everyone would want Francona's head on a stick. Contrary to popular demand, managers can't predict the future, they put their team in the best job to win a game. 95% of the time, that lefty-lefty matchup on Ortiz will win you the game.

[Guest Anglesault]

Scioscia is a great manager and his subbing in pinch hitters and management of the game when the Angels were down to set up Vlad with bases loaded is the only reason they were even in the fucking game.

Okay. And?

 

It ultimately got them nowhere.

 

Anglesault, did you think Grady Little was smart for keeping in Pedro last year?

 

Pedro fell apart and Little just watched. Nothing of the sort happened last night.

 

And was Ron Gardenhire smart for keeping in Joe Nathan last week?

 

Ron Gardenhire did what he had to do to. He wanted a 2-0 lead, so he had to run the risk with Nathan. The other two relievers weren't very good.

 

It should be noted that Gardenhire didn't have to manage as if any mistake could end the season.

 

K-Rod never went 3 innings this season, and Ortiz crushes righties.

 

And K-Rod gets lefties out.

 

Something would have had to give, and the old adadge is that pitching beats hitting.

 

Now if you know anything about baseball, you know managers love the righty-righty, lefty-lefty matchups. Every manager does it

 

And it's ridiculous when you're so obsessed with those matchups that you remove a pitcher for a clearly inferior one because he happens to pitch with the required hand.

 

95% of the time, that lefty-lefty matchup on Ortiz will win you the game.

 

And 95% of the time, the better pitcher will win the game as well.

 

People have somehow convinced themselves that he took out a guy that was getting rocked and replaced him with Jesse Orosco. That just simply didn't happen.

 

You leave Rodriguez in the game, he gives up the homerun, you just went out in a blaze of glory with their best beating yours. Very few people are going to scream "But you had Jarrod Washburn!" especially after his stinkeroo three days earlier.

 

Instead, you replace your best (a guy who's just as, if not more capable of getting a lefty out) and replace him with probably five or six on your pitching depth chart.

 

It's just like the old cliche, If a pitcher's going to get beat, he wants to you to beat him on his best pitch, not his third best.

 

If a team is going to get beat, you want to get beat with your best, not your fifth or sixth.

[UZI Suicide 0]

Okay. And?

 

It ultimately got them nowhere.

 

And.. that's the life of a manger. They aren't going to get everything right, they aren't perfect. He's been consistantly one of the best managers in the game and shouldn't be fired for one mistake.

 

And K-Rod gets lefties out.

 

Something would have had to give, and the old adadge is that pitching beats hitting.

 

K-Rod does get lefty's out, but it's playing the percentages. Any other manager would have done the same thing, it's not like Scoiscia did some out of his mind thing that he should be canned for. If K-Rod gives up the Homerun there, Scioscia is an idiot for not doing the lefty-lefty matchup. I don't care what you say about a "blaze of glory". In a situation like that, the manager ALWAYS gets blamed. Everyone would have pointed to the fact that K-Rod hadn't pitched 3 innings in a game the whole season, and Scioscia overused him. Don't forget, K-Rod got the loss in game 2 by giving up the go-ahead run to spark the Sox past Anaheim.

 

 

And it's ridiculous when you're so obsessed with those matchups that you remove a pitcher for a clearly inferior one because he happens to pitch with the required hand.

 

I'm not arguing that, I think in some cases it is stupid. However, Scioscia did what any manager in baseball would have done. So if you want to fire him, might as well fight 'em all.

[Mole 0]

I don't want to go through the whole thread trying to find what AS is bitching about this time, but what is it?

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

So you would have been happy taking K-Rod out and sending me out there. I throw with my left hand. Am I more likely to get David Ortiz out?

 

I don't have your platoon splits, but I assume not. This is not a simple matter of left vs. right, with no other variable involves. I presented some numbers earlier, but they failed to penetrate the brick wall.

 

The quality of the two pitchers has to be taken into account as well.

 

Of course. Jarrod Washburn had a lower OBP against lefties than did Francisco Rodriguez. LOWER. K-Rod's opponents' OPS jumps 178 points when Rodriguez faces a left handed batter. Platoon splits do matter.

 

I assume Bruiser and al feel that in an ALCS, should the Yankees make it, and Ortiz comes up in the late innings, the prudent thing would be to take Tom Gordon or Mariano Rivera out and throw in Felix Heredia.

 

No, because he is not as good against lefties as are Gordon or Rivera. We are NOT talking about a simple matter of any generic lefty instead of K-Rod.

[Slayer 0]

I guess the "kinder, gentler Anglesault" went out the window

[mike546 0]

I'm not arguing that, I think in some cases it is stupid. However, Scioscia did what any manager in baseball would have done. So if you want to fire him, might as well fight 'em all.

Wait, so your saying, if the Yankees had Gordon in, a righty to face Ortiz, you take him out and let Heredia pitch to him?

[Cartman 0]

No, because Washburn is many times better than Heredia.

 

Ortiz always struggles against Lefties, Scioscia played by the numbers and lost.

[Guest Anglesault]

Okay. And?

 

It ultimately got them nowhere.

 

And.. that's the life of a manger. They aren't going to get everything right, they aren't perfect. He's been consistantly one of the best managers in the game and shouldn't be fired for one mistake.

 

I agree there. I went overboard saying he should be fired.

 

I don't have your platoon splits, but I assume not. This is not a simple matter of left vs. right, with no other variable involves. I presented some numbers earlier, but they failed to penetrate the brick wall.

 

You also neglected to mention what he did against Ortiz on Tuesday. A single, an RBI and a four pitch walk. Yep, he had the big man's NUMBAH! lately, huh? You mention that he's 2-7 against him, but don't mention that he couldn't get the damn guy out the last time he saw him.

 

K-Rod's opponents' OPS jumps 178 points when Rodriguez faces a left handed batter.

 

Does it get so bad that he has no shot at getting a lefthander out?

 

*looks up*

 

.564

 

Well, better not let THAT shmuck give it a go.

 

Okay, I'm reading this wrong. Because what I'm reading says Washburn has a higher OPS against lefties than K-Rod. And that just can't be true.

[Brett Favre 0]

How is this comparable to the Nathan situation? Nathan walked 2 straight batters while K-Rod struck out one of the better hitters in the league? Are you kidding me?

 

Taking out K-Rod was idiotic. Had he walked Ramirez, or any other batter for that matter and looked like he couldn't find the plate, then yes it was a great move. But it wasn't, and the result should point that out.

[JangoFett4Hire 0]

Looking ahead, who do you have pitch game one?

 

Keep the rotation and have Wakefield go one and Schilling two?

Have Schilling one and Pedro two?

OR Have Wakes go on game #2 after Curt, so that Pedro misses pitching in hostile territory? His track record in Yankee Stadium and the Dome isn't good...

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

To close the K-Rod/Washburn argument, I personally would not have made the move. My position is simply that it is not such a bad move that it is indefensible. There are legitimate reasons for the move, and it simply turned out badly.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Looking ahead, who do you have pitch game one?

 

Keep the rotation and have Wakefield go one and Schilling two?

Have Schilling one and Pedro two?

OR Have Wakes go on game #2 after Curt, so that Pedro misses pitching in hostile territory? His track record in Yankee Stadium and the Dome isn't good...

You absolutely pitch Curt Schilling in game one. You also have to pitch Pedro in game two, to assure he gets two starts in. Pedro might have been shaky lately in Yankee Stadium, but not to the extent that I'd trust Arroyo over him.

[Brett Favre 0]

To close the K-Rod/Washburn argument, I personally would not have made the move. My position is simply that it is such a bad move that it is indefensible. There are legitimate reasons for the move, and it simply turned out badly.

Agreed 100%. It's not like K-Rod couldn't find the strike zone.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

That should have read "NOT such an indefensible move." I edited my earlier post.

[UZI Suicide 0]

 

I'm not arguing that, I think in some cases it is stupid. However, Scioscia did what any manager in baseball would have done. So if you want to fire him, might as well fight 'em all.

Wait, so your saying, if the Yankees had Gordon in, a righty to face Ortiz, you take him out and let Heredia pitch to him?

If he was in his 3rd inning? yes

[mike546 0]

 

Are you serious?