How will HHH be remembered?

[snuffbox 0]

Poor man's Shane Douglas.

Homeless man's Shane Douglas...

[Guest Rrrsh]

HHH was part of 2000, sure, but Rock was the real star. Plus TLC REALLY helped that year, and the gretaness of writing in the undercard. And a kick ass Jerihco/Benoit Fued.

 

HHH was givin the torch for the past three years and has drawn flies. Just like Deisel.

[Guest Loss]

Wasn't that Bret/Rock match on Raw for the IC Title?

 

Edit: I think it was on the night that the Hart Foundation started again.

Different period. Shawn and HHH wanted Bret to beat Rock clean later in the year after he turned heel during the whole Harts/NOD feud.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

If we're talking about Michaels, it should be pointed out that he was pretty much a flop as far as ratings go. Raw hit some really bad numbers during his '96 reign. We're talking Diesel levels here.

[Black Lushus 0]

yeah but couldn't that be tied into the emergence of the nWo and Hollywood Hogan? That shit was ten times more interesting then HBK...

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

yeah but couldn't that be tied into the emergence of the nWo and Hollywood Hogan? That shit was ten times more interesting then HBK...

While that is true to some extent, you would still expect someone who got the kind of push Michaels did, both in the ring and on commentary, to get still get above the 2.2 mark on a regular basis. nWo and co played a part, but so did the fact that Michaels character was a huge turn-off for males.

[Black Lushus 0]

well, let's get specific here, FACE hbk sucks, i always liked HEEL hbk...i would put heel hbk up there near the top of any Best Heels list...me, personally, I just found his matches rather boring, perhaps because he really didn't have good talent to work with during his reign other than Bulldog and Mankind...WWE shoulda pushed Owen Hart into the limelight then, they could have had stellar title matches...

[Guest Loss]

Good point, HTQ. I think the main reason HBK's face run didn't work is that the audience was composed mostly of males, and they weren't going to take their girlfriends to see someone they saw as a threat. HBK often gets credit for the big house show resurgence in the first half of 1996, but if you'll notice, that resurgence happened when the title was put on Bret and ended shortly after he dropped the belt.

[Guest M. Harry Smilac]

I'll remember him as the guy who's moves involved using his knee's and the pedigree.

 

Usually when he comes on TV I change the channel and don't return like this past Monday.

[Guest Loss]

Question -- do you think HHH would still be getting this push if WCW was around? I could just hear the announcers taking shots at them all night for having too much HHH.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Question -- do you think HHH would still be getting this push if WCW was around? I could just hear the announcers taking shots at them all night for having too much HHH.

His push might be lessened slightly, but he would still be the most pushed wrestler on the roster. He'd probably be less visible for sure, but that would be made up for with JR and Jerry talking about him all the time, like how WCW did with Hogan.

[strummer 0]

I will never forget the Raw after Survivor Series 2002 when the whole show was built around HHH despite the fact he was not at the arena. He was in the hospital in NYC after having his throat injured by RVD. The opening scene had Bischoff saying "HHH" at least a dozen times. The announcers kept saying "what will HHH do when he comes back" "What will HHH have to say about this" "will HHH make a suprise appearance here tonight". Now THAT is a push.

[Guest BillyTheStud]

 

Indeed

[Slayer 0]

Also, HHH needs to be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine.

[Promoter 0]

Some interesting comments here. As for the topic's question I can't really say, but I will take a hypothetical approach. What if Triple H went down with an injury or God forbid went the way of other wrestlers in their early 40's(which could happen if you think about it). First, I will say I don't really have anything too much against the guy and was actually a huge mark for him at one point, but the truth is the truth.

 

I think it is rather ridiculous for the wwe to actually believe the masses will ever take this guy seriously as the "greatest of all-time", but that is what the company line would be. The masses WILL NOT think of him as the greatest. To the disgust of some people HULK HOGAN will STILL have that accolade. I think the year 2002 and the rabid fans who cheered Hogan like crazy were showing their respect for the man who they feel is the greatest. HHH WILL NEVER have that kind of response. Not even Ric Flair gets it and he is more respected by the wrestling audience. Hogan is larger than life and I believe he will still be seen as the greatest. Everyone knows Hogan put the business into the mainstream like no other. He was unique and had a certain awe to him. The stuff of Muhammad Ali. HHH doesn't even come close, but he will try to weasel his way unto that level.

 

HHH has Ric Flair calling him the greatest and has a victory over the man in his last title shot to date(you think that's by accident?). He also went over Ric Flair in the first night the "world heavyweight title" returned on raw. That I'm sure will be used in revisionist history as the passing of the torch of the big gold belt. He goes over Shawn Michaels who they proclaim is the greatest all around athlete in history(Angle could try and work his way to that claim, but the wwe won't give it to him*company line goes a long way*). He not only has victories over The Rock and Steve Austin, but he won the friggin feuds. All this is carefully calculated to make him the greatest. There is a big difference though. This is not the 80's. The fans are more sharp and even the least informed fans can smell the rat with Triple H.

Hogan could get away with going over guys like Savage(Triple H is not even at his level during his heel days of 86 and face pops of 88 imo), Dibase, Perfect, and so on because he legitimately seemed to match his booking. Triple H for the most part does not.

 

Now, as Loss said earlier this may seem contradicting, but Triple H right now is the top guy. However, he is so because the real stars are gone and the masses know this. All the woes of the wwe can't be blamed on him, but a majority of it can. In the 80's the wwe had the bigger stars, but Flair still kept his company afloat against the monster til perhaps the middle of '89 and early 90. Flair helped elevate guys like Steamboat and Sting. Yes, I know Steamboat was really big, but he was never world champion in the wwf. I think it should really be examined that Triple H HAS been overpushed and it doesn't justify the booking. As someone said he is average, but he will be remembered as a good champion and rightfully so. However, take a close look at this and then decide how this man can really ever get anywhere close to Rock, Flair, Hogan and Austin.

 

In 1995-6, HHH enters the wwf in a gimmick that is a rip off of Ric Flair's. Why didn't this get over? Because it was a poor man version of Ric Flair. As stated if Triple H came in the wwe today he would have probably been sent back to OVW like Mordecai. The wwe saddles him Mr. Perfect during his program run for the IC title because Perfect was a popular IC champion in the early 90's. He gets punished for the Kliq incident at MSG which is used as a gimmick in 1999 for My Time. He gets tha amazon lady Chyna in his corner. He is then put with Shawn Michaels who was pushed as the "new generation leader".

 

A little off topic here to counterpoint the claims that HBK sucked as champion in the drawing department in 1996. I think the biggest mistake the wwe did with Shawn Michaels is what they are doing now with Randy Orton and even John Cena. In 1995, Shawn Michaels was the top heel, but it could have been argued he was the top face. They turned him after WM 11 and he still kept some of his heel edge all the way up to SummerSlam '95 with the ladder match with Razor(two faces and HBK didn't suck up to people). They ran a nice little angle in the fall that Cena might be ripping off now. He came back and was crowned the champion at Mania with Jose Lothario. The wwe was winning the ratings and so on. HBK was still "cool", but guess what? What does the wwe always do? They turned the guy into what they turned Diesel in 1995. A kissing babies, grandma crossing, sissy. They had just ran an angle a few months prior with Nash turning tweener about this and they go and do the same damn thing with HBK. I'm sorry, they BOTHCED HBK's championship reign before the nWo had a chance to even start.

 

It didn't help matters either that Bret was running down HBK as not really being worthy of the title because of the cheap over-time victory. It's revisionist history now, but there WAS no time limit in the program. I have the HBK DVD where if you watch the extras with Piper doing the promo the wwe edits out the part that there must be a winner win, lose, or draw within the hour. This may be nitpicking, but I can bet that if this happened today under the same circumstances a lot of people would pick up these things as botching HBK's chances at the top. It didn't help matters either that he never really had that great a roster to work with either. You have Warrior showing up(they missed that chance of a match) and leave. You have Vader being mishandled. Sid showing up. Then in one fell swoop Eiric Bischoff gets with the times and has Hall, Nash, and Hogan remain "risque" and not turn goody two shoes(how much people wanna bet if Vince got that in his hands he would have turned them into goody two shoes because they were popping crowds and ratings?). The wwe tried to do damage control on HBK's character in the fall with "I lost my edge", but it was too little too late as he seemed like he was copying Hogan and company. I always saw people coming down on HBK's failure to draw and wanted to say this and I guess I've sidetracked here, but it goes to show how time changes perception which it might with HHH. Notice the booking of HBK here and how it hurt the company compared to what I illustrate with HHH's booking to the top and on top.

 

Yeah, that HHH guy. He is lucky enough to be embroiled in two big stories in the fall of 97 with HBK. The first was the Montreal Screwjob and the other was the night Rude showed up on raw and nitro. DX was gaining steam under the HBK that should have been pushed as champion in 1996. Vince GOT IT! Too bad HBK got hurt. HHH was also on the coattails of the Mike Tyson/DX storyline. He takes over DX from HBK and is put into situations where the group is out on a mission to "Free Hall and Nash". Take note that HHH is surrounded by a lot of big stories of the day and not really doing anything big to warrant this push, but be the friend of HBK.

 

In 1999, the Vince Mcmahon/Austin saga is winding down and the wwf needs a new poer heel to replace him for Austin. The Rock was turned face because he was forced to by the fans. HHH fell into a position that was required and not because of some massive appeal to be put into the spot. The Big Show probably would have got it, but we know the story there just coming from the rival wcw. So, Triple H gets the Randy Orton super push circa 1999 and was suppose to go over Austin. Austin felt he wasn't ready. Whether or not true at the time we'll leave up in the air. HHH doesn't get pinned at SummerSlam and his heat is saved by going over Foley on raw the next night. He is forced down everybody's throat with it being "My Time". Sounds something similar to "Destiny" doesn't it? Okay, I think he was screwed with Mcmahob beating him for the belt. That couldn't have helped any, but he ended up getting victories over Austin at house shows and the No Mercy ppv anyways as champion. Okay, the Big Show nonsense came into play here, but Trips was still protected with the loss and he hooks up with the Stephanie Mcmahon. Notice he is always being pitted with a backdrop. It could be argued Stephanie Mcmahon was more over than Triple H at the time. He gets the title back as the wwe is DETERMINED to get this guy over as a main eventer as we enter the year he gets praised for all the time(and rightfully so, but how could he NOT get over). He gets a victory over Foley at MSG in his kind of match.

 

To illustrate the issue even more he retires him the following month. Was this enough to make him headline WrestleMania as a real draw? NOPE! He retires one of the most beloved characters of all-time and the wwf still didn't trust him to headline WM in a traditional sense. The wwe has him defend the title against Foley and Rock where everyone and their mother had to predict a victory for one of the faces. Triple H went over The Rock(his peak of popularity) and Foley(sentimental coming out of "retirement" match). THIS IS WHAT GOT TRIPLE H OVER as a main eventer. Look how they made sure to force this guy to become a major player. Did this happen with Rock, Hogan, Austin, Flair or heck even Ultimate Warrior(his push matched his popularity). I dare say even guys like Savage and Hart didn't get anything close to this kind of booking. Sure you can't give anyone this kind of booking and expect them to get over, but as someone said there are other guys who would get just as over and perhaps even more with this kind of booking. Trips goes on as the "Flair/HBK 2000" with matches Jericho, Benoit, Taka, and Rock. Now, can we honestly say that Bret Hart and HBK even came close to this roster in terms of challengers and had anywhere this kind of booking? Hey, bring back Kreski to make Trips interesting again I say!

 

Anyways, he enters another storyline after NOT jobbing the title to Rock with the hot newcomer Kurt Angle(Eugene 2004 anyone in the summer?). Who knows how the politics went with that, so we'll leave it up in the air. However, I say this. If Kurt Angle had got Trips' wife and then went on to take the title off Rock at No Mercy who thinks someone's position as the number one heel would be greatly threatened? Who would be able to play face, but would also battle for the #1 face spot with the red hot Rock and the returning Steve Austin? Yep HHH. So, who ends up taking the number one heel spot with the Austin angle? Triple H. Why they couldn't let ol' Rikishi be another heel threat to Triple H along with Kurt Angle could they? Why of course not. Triple H is the greatest heel of all-time .

 

Why now head into Austin/Trips and booking that would make sense says Austin goes over, but he doesn't. Now, I know some won't believe, but at the time I felt Austin losing triggered my belief he would really turn heel. There were signs even from the murder of HHH(again, he shows superpowers to return from that, while Austin got much less damage a year prior and he couldn't return for a full year*keep that in mind). The reason I felt this way was that Austin showed a frustration with trying to defeat HHH and if he showed a frustration with defeating The Rock he would have to use the chair multiple of times on Rock to win. Watch the HHH match again and see Austin used the multiple chair shots spot on HHH which sclued me that Austin was "going over the edge". Anyways, we know HHH went on to face UT at WM 17 and did a political job where losing to Taker doesn't hurt because everyone loses to him at WM 17. I would just like to wonder what the backstage stuff was about with HBK and HHH at the time. Remember HBK was going to return at the event? Who knows, maybe HBK/HHH was suppose to happen there and the two guys who have a case of jobbitis couldn't agree on who should win. Anyways, that is pure conspiracy stuff on my part.

 

Anyways, Austin turns heel and instead of HHH going face he stays heel again. As I side note I think the two chances for HHH to go face in 2000 and 2001 might have ruined his chances of fans trusting this guy to ever be a face again. Okay, we know he gets injured and is gone and the wwe screws up Austin's heel turn and the Invasion. However, we see videos of HHH on the shows in recuperation to make sure he gets a face pop when he returns. Austin in the meantime becomes the exact opposite of what made him popular. Now, not to start any conspiracies or anything, but I could see the wwe banking on Triple H the superface to carry the company upon his return and damaging Austin's character. Regardless, the opening was there for Triple H to take the spot of top face because Rock for the most part started to become a part-time movie star. HHH returns and is pushed as the top face and we know the rest of the story from there. There are a few bumps in the road like the surprise face reaction for Hogan and the ridiculous out of the blue face turn of Austin which kept him lukewarm. The wwe wanted Trips to take over as the top face and we know what happened there. The guys like Benoit and whatnot were not completely disenfranchised at the moment in terms of stock and credibility with the fans. Lesnar finally started to get a response around SummerSlam '01 and wins the title. HHH is turned back heel to face Shawn Michaels. Now if this was anyone else I'm pretty damn sure Vince would not bother putting back into the championship picture after the abysmal run as champion. However, HHH was again a world champion by stripping half of Lesnar's belt. If this was someone like Benoit winning and losing a title he would still be stuck in the upper/main event scene, but not in the championship level. The proof is there with Jericho, Eddie, Benoit, and even Angle. That is where the Evolution thing was brought in. The wwe saddled him with a backdrop AGAIN for him to keep his heat and what better backdrop than Ric Flair and a 4 horsemen rip-off. In the meantime guys like RVD who came in the invasion and was somewhat a potential star for the future is made to be looked like a fool. Booker T soon came to follow. All the guys who were somewhat saved from the Invasion were made underneath by Triple H and got that far because he was out the year before. Now, I actually believed Trips should have gone over them, but it's the way he went over them. He didn't try to make them look good like how Austin was doing for Benoit and Angle in 2001 as heel champion. 2003 came with the big build up for him and Goldberg and look how that played out. Now, take all this into account with this year where he hides behind losing the strap in a 3 way and takes the title off a guy that was getting momentum in Orton. The story of the summer was not Benoit world champion, but HHH continuing his feud with HBK and HHH on a losing streak against Benoit, Benjamin and Eugene. Of course, that is not counting the draft lottery that has him as the most valuable pick. We are where we are now with Triple H as champion again and project Orton somewhat of a bust.

 

Triple H the new Hulk Hogan? HA! At least Hogan helped to put TWO companies on the map with his politics in wcw(he deserved his push in the wwf in the 80's people). Long rant, but I felt all this stuff had to be considered with the true worth of Triple H.

[Guest Brian]

HHH will be remembered as marrying into an ownership position. It will dwarf anything he could ever or has ever accomplished in wrestling.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

That's basically it. He pulled the greatest political move in the history of the business(even though I am the one of the few to believe they actually love each other, despite some who believe HHH just married her for the position) and will go down as the most influencial worker ever. More then Hogan, Rock and Austin.

[Guest Loss]

He's not the most influential wrestler ever. Not even close. He's important, no doubt, but not enough has happened deliberately on his watch. It's all been more subtle.

 

He's also not the first wrestler in history to marry into a promoter's family. Dick the Bruiser and Larry Zbyszko did the same thing.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

I meant to say he'll have the most influence i.e the way the company is run and who gets pushed etc then any other worker ever has.

[Guest Loss]

He's about even with Dusty Rhodes or the other names actually. He has no more power in WWE than Jeff Jarrett has in TNA, either.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

But WWE actually means something.

[Promoter 0]

That's why it's kind of hard to guage where his place in history is at the moment. If we take history of it RIGHT NOW I honestly think his being married to Stephanie Mcmahon means nothing. Nothing significant has happened since he hooked up with her a few years back. Rock and Austin would still blow him away. Rock is all over the place from A&E to the big screen and Austin sold the most merchandise of all time. They also had the Hogan/Andre feud of this era. HHH would be battling HBK for something of Flair's status. Flair however is still bigger than both of them because he was always compared to Hogan in the 80's in terms of who the real champ was. The environment Trips is in right now breeds nothing of any significance. He'd be remembered for early 2001 for fighting against Rock and Foley. HBK is a different story as his historic piece is the infamous screwjob and one of the greatest rivalries ever that spawned the whole attitude era.

[Guest Loss]

But WWE actually means something.

Yeah. But if you think the AWA didn't mean something at the time, or that wrestling wasn't big in Detroit at one time, or that the NWA didn't mean a lot from 1985-1988, then you don't really know much about wrestling history. Saying "in history" covers a lot of ground -- HHH is easily the most influential wrestler right now, but should they go out of business in 5-10 years due to HHH's stunts, they won't mean anymore than the other groups have meant.

[Promoter 0]

I guess people have forgotten those animals who ran the zoo in wcw not too long ago too. The effects of those decisions are still felt today that's for sure. Hell, one of the guys recently admitted in mainstream media that they ran Turner's organization. I mean Eric Bischoff's lack of desire to be on creative didn't just appear in the last two years imo. Hell, I remember Bischoff admitting a lot of the Hogan stuff in wcw was his idea and that Hogan also had a lot of the ideas for Vince in the 80's in terms of the main event scene.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Hogan could get away with going over guys like Savage(Triple H is not even at his level during his heel days of 86 and face pops of 88 imo), Dibase, Perfect, and so on because he legitimately seemed to match his booking.

 

I think this is an important difference between HHH and Hogan. People WANTED Hogan to win all the time, because he was the big face everyone loved. He was like, everyone's home team.

 

HHH is the exact opposite. He's a heel - he's not supposed to win all the time. Besides that, people aren't supposed to want to see him win all the time. People want to see heels lose, because they don't like heels.

 

It'd be like your home team losing every single time you went to see them play. Eventually, you just don't bother.

[Promoter 0]

I bet the wwe even knows this, but I can see someone always saying it's better in the long run to remain champion until that big crowd favourite is groomed to get the big win everyone is waiting for. I bet Triple H will keep on singing this song until he retires killing off all potential babyfaces. I really want to see how this Orton/HHH things plays out. I bet he might say Orton is not clicking as they thought he would and they might pencil in Cena for the main event of Mania 21. I won't spoil things for smackdown for anyone else.

[JN News 0]

I bet the wwe even knows this, but I can see someone always saying it's better in the long run to remain champion until that big crowd favourite is groomed to get the big win everyone is waiting for. I bet Triple H will keep on singing this song until he retires killing off all potential babyfaces. I really want to see how this Orton/HHH things plays out. I bet he might say Orton is not clicking as they thought he would and they might pencil in Cena for the main event of Mania 21. I won't spoil things for smackdown for anyone else.

No, he'll bring in Eddie over to RAW, not Cena.

[Black Lushus 0]

did someone earlier say Rock/HHH was as big a fued as Andre/Hogan or did I misread that??? There's no way in hell you can even compare the two...Andre was loved by millions and viewed as Hogan's closest friend only to turn his back on him and attack him out of jealousy, instantly making him the most hated guy ever, at the time....HHH has almost always been hated and NEVER had the fan base Andre had back in his day...

[DrainYou42 0]

did someone earlier say Rock/HHH was as big a fued as Andre/Hogan or did I misread that???

He was comparing Rock/Austin to Hulk/Andre.

[Black Lushus 0]

I misread...even still, can THAT compare?

 

Andre/Hogan got mainstream pub...I don't recall Austin/Rock ever getting that, maybe I'm wrong?