The Countdown to Beltran with Yankees Topic

[Guest Anglesault]

No one's saying they can't trade/buy players. However, the fact that they've completely exhausted their farm system by trading for chokers kinda suggests that it isn't exactly the answer to the problem.

.

Then WHAT THE HELL IS?

 

Gutting the team, embarssing everyone with a shitfactory of a group for the next five years, so that in ten years, we'll be exactly where we are now? With a shot to win it all, if breaks go our way?

Yeah, you're right. Why should the Yankees have to go through the same development process as teams with less than $60 million for payroll?

If you don't have to, why should you?

[The Man in Blak 0]

My point exactly.

[Guest Anglesault]

My point exactly.

But you were being snarky.

[treble 0]

2002: Out in the First Round

2003: Lost in the World Series

2004: Lost in the ALCS

 

Compared to the A's moneyball crap:

 

2002: Out in the First Round

2003: Out in the First Round

2004: Sans-Playoff

 

Really, I think we're doing fine.

The A's also paid about $100 million less on players, too.

 

And no one's saying that the Yankees should go the 'Moneyball' route, just that it might be a good idea to build up their farm system.

[Guest Anglesault]

just that it might be a good idea to build up their farm system.

And you can do that without gutting the team

[treble 0]

Yeah, gutting the team would be stupid (but, personally, I wouldn't mind it), but some people in here seem to get a little too defensive when someone mentions that the Yankees' farm system could use some revamping.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

it's just that as far and away the crappiest part of the team, the farm system should also be the easiest to improve.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

2002: Out in the First Round

2003: Lost in the World Series

2004: Lost in the ALCS

 

Compared to the A's moneyball crap:

 

2002: Out in the First Round

2003: Out in the First Round

2004: Sans-Playoff

 

Really, I think we're doing fine.

 

To borrow an Anglesault line, success is not outperforming a single west coast team. Its winning the big prize. And the Yankees haven't done that. It's disgusting how some people will take any opportunity to bash moneyball. It's not crap. And I have news for you. The Yankees are almost as much a Moneyball team as the A's and Sox. They work the count, which is statute number one of a smart offensive unit.

 

Pitching, speed and clutch hitting wins the World Series. Not bash ball.

 

Hmm. You'd think the Atlanta Braves would've won more titles. Or maybe those Oakland A's, whose three best players were their three pitchers. And if you can find a way to accurately predict clutch hitting, you really should publish it. There are 30 baseball teams who would love to have that information.

 

Look. The key to scoring runs is reaching base and not making outs. It's so blindingly obvious that I'm amazed so many people rally against it.

 

As for the Yankees and their farm system. Its not that you build your players with homegrown players. But you need depth on your team. What would've happened to the Yankees if A-Rod suffered a freak injury in September? They would have been forced to play Enrique Wilson every day. You need a strong farm system to cover your ass in case something goes wrong. And sometimes it produces a star player to whom you pay a pittance for six years. Remember the Twins are barely paying anything for Johan Santana.

[Guest Anglesault]

Yeah, gutting the team would be stupid (but, personally, I wouldn't mind it), but some people in here seem to get a little too defensive when someone mentions that the Yankees' farm system could use some revamping.

It's been getting better in the lower levels. They drafted better the last couple years.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Another thing, about rebuilding. Rebuilding doesn't take 5-10 years. That's a line badly managed teams use to pacify their fans, while clamering for publicly funded stadiums and paying Roberto Hernandez $6 Million a year. The key to building up the farm system is not giving up a draft pick for a free agent unless the player is worth it. There's no reason to give up draft picks for a Steve Karsay type. But Carlos Beltran is well worth it. If the Yankees work smart, there's no reason they can't build the farm system AND keep winning.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

just that it might be a good idea to build up their farm system.

And you can do that without gutting the team

Wasn't it you that first brought up the idea of gutting the team anyways? That Lieber, Sturtze, Bernie & Mussina were the only guys worth keeping? I know I never mentioned anything about gutting the team. I just said that they would be hard-pressed to do much without prospects that they can trade.

[Guest Anglesault]

They work the count, which is statute number one of a smart offensive unit.

Until everyone turns into Mark Bellhorn in Extra inning games at Fenway Park. Or the ninth inning of Game Six.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

But Carlos Beltran is well worth it. If the Yankees work smart, there's no reason they can't build the farm system AND keep winning.

 

Yep. But they weren't and thus the cupboard is bare right now.

[Guest Smell the ratings!!!]

if they were more like Bellhorn they wouldn't have had to put up with 6 innings of The Gimp and Derek Lowe on 2 days rest.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Yes, why do the Yankees have to be the only team to use farm player, and develop them, and NOT sign free agents or make trades for players? Look at Cards. Rolen, Edmonds, Renteria, Sanders, Walker, Womack, Matheny, Marquis, Suppan, Isringhausen (sp?), Cedeno, Tavarez, King. I mean damn.

The Cardinals acquired most of their key players (Rolen, Walker, Edmonds) through trades. Sure, some of these deals were incredibly lopsided affairs (where art thou, Bud Smith and Kent Bottenfield), but it takes two to tango and the Cardinals had to give up players in the deal.

 

The Yankees, meanwhile, went out and signed the top slugger (Sheffield) on the market. Last year, they were the first people in line for the Matsui/Contreras sweepstakes. The year before that, they brought in Giambi and David Wells (again). All directly out of pocket.

 

And, finally:

 

Payroll for the 2004 St. Louis Cardinals: $82 million

Payroll for the 2004 New York Yankees: $182 million

 

You don't really want to make that comparison, do you?

 

 

EDITED...because, well, I fucked up.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The Yankees, meanwhile, went out and signed two of the top three starters on the free agent market (Brown, Vasquez), as well as the top slugger (Sheffield). Last year, they were the first people in line for the Matsui/Contreras sweepstakes. The year before that, they brought in Giambi and David Wells (again). All directly out of pocket.

 

Brown and Vazquez arrived via trades.

[Guest Anglesault]

if they were more like Bellhorn they wouldn't have had to put up with 6 innings of The Gimp and Derek Lowe on 2 days rest.

Early in the game, it's a great idea.

 

9th, 10th, 11th inning, the ENTIRE TEAM can't be staring at balls right down the middle in an attempt to walk. That's how you get down 0-2 and end up flailing at something.

 

When Ruben Sierra is going up there trying to do nothing but walk, there are problems.

 

The Yankees, meanwhile, went out and signed two of the top three starters on the free agent market (Brown, Vasquez),

 

They traded for both those guys...

[The Man in Blak 0]

Okay, I'll retract that.

 

*smacks himself on the head*

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Early in the game, it's a great idea.

 

9th, 10th, 11th inning, the ENTIRE TEAM can't be staring at balls right down the middle in an attempt to walk. That's how you get down 0-2 and end up flailing at something.

 

When Ruben Sierra is going up there trying to do nothing but walk, there are problems.

 

You shouldn't look for a walk. The idea is that you are waiting for your pitch. Not swinging at something you can't get a good shot at. Some hitters take it too far, which is why Jack Cust is languishing at AAA. Derek Jeter actually is a good example of the moneyball approach to hitting.

[Guest Anglesault]

You shouldn't look for a walk. The idea is that you are waiting for your pitch. Not swinging at something you can't get a good shot at. Some hitters take it too far, which is why Jack Cust is languishing at AAA. Derek Jeter actually is a good example of the moneyball approach to hitting.

That's certainly not what they were doing. I don't know how many times I heard Leiter say "What is he looking for???" when a Yankee was up

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Some hitters take it too far, which is why Jack Cust is languishing at AAA.

 

He of the .235 AVG for the Lynx.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

I saw Jack Cust live. He looked completely lost at the plate.

[Jorge Gorgeous 0]

Firstly, the only true "key" to winning a World Series is by getting four victories before the other team. There is no one method that works everytime, otherwise, all the teams in the MLB would look roughly the same.

Furthermore, farm systems aren't a punched ticket to the play-offs. Seattle? Montreal? Its great to have a thick farm system to pull from, but the Yankees can dip their ladle in the rest of the league. When you're an upper echelon team like the Yankees, Red Sox, etc... your fans expect you to win now, not in 8 years.

[Fökai 0]

Another thing, about rebuilding. Rebuilding doesn't take 5-10 years. That's a line badly managed teams use to pacify their fans, while clamering for publicly funded stadiums and paying Roberto Hernandez $6 Million a year. The key to building up the farm system is not giving up a draft pick for a free agent unless the player is worth it. There's no reason to give up draft picks for a Steve Karsay type. But Carlos Beltran is well worth it. If the Yankees work smart, there's no reason they can't build the farm system AND keep winning.

 

We need to highlight this statement by Al. From the looks of it, the Yankee fans take a glance at teams like the Expos, Pirates, Tigers and Royals and expect their rebuilding process to mirror these teams. When are THESE teams hoping to succeed, and with what talent?

 

The fact is, the Yankees, even if they dump a few contracts, can still win with their building blocks (Rodriguez, Posada and Jeter) while bolstering their pitching staff, adding depth to the bench and building the farm system back up.

 

There's no need to have signed the Giambis and Sheffields of the world when a suitable replacement and a strong role player can be had in their place.

[Vern Gagne 0]

Here's a challenge. Reastically cut the Yankees payroll to 125 million.

[geniusMoment 0]

Everyone is mentioning 2002, 2003 and 2004 as Yankee failures, what about 2001. Did we all forget the lesson learned in the heat of the Arizona desert? Afterall, since Yankee fans want it all or nothing, than that loss sucks just as much.

[The Man in Blak 0]

Here's a challenge. Reastically cut the Yankees payroll to 125 million.

Given what they're working with, that's virtually impossible. Here's the approximate cap numbers on the Yankee contracts for 2005 (from Dugout Dollars):

 

Kevin Brown: $15 million

Jason Giambi: $17.14 million

Mike Mussina: $14.75 million

Jorge Posada: $10.2 million

Mariano Rivera: $10.5 million

Alex Rodriguez: $14.48 million

Gary Sheffield: $13 million

Javier Vasquez: $11.25 million

Bernie Williams: $12.58 million

Derek Jeter: $18.9 million

 

Just those contracts right there eclipse $125 million, and I'm not even counting the lesser contracts for 2005:

 

Hideki Matsui: $7 million

Kenny Lofton: $3.1 million

Tom Gordon: $3.63 million

Paul Quantrill: $3.2 million

Steve Karsay: $5.63 million

Felix Heredia: $1.9 million

 

Three starters, eight position starters (if they put Lofton in CF and DH Bernie), and five relievers. The Yankees have 16 out of 25 roster spots already set in stone and the only contracts up there that are really trade-worthy might be Hideki Matsui (who isn't going anywhere) and Javier Vasquez, whose performance in 2004 will assure that the Yankees would probably have to eat up around half of his salary just to pique interest from other clubs.

 

Brown and Giambi are huge injury risks. Sheffield, Williams, Rivera, Mussina, and Posada look to be entering (or are already in) the decline phase of their career. Jeter and A-Rod's respective contracts are absolute abominations that nobody in their right mind would touch. Lofton's 37 and due for arthroscopic knee surgery. All of the relievers are hideously overpaid. Unless George arranges lobotomies for owners around the league, they really have no tradeable commodities.

 

There's no real way to gut this team or even cut the payroll to $125 million. As always, the Yankees will dip into the free agent market and have their choice picks of the pool. There's plenty of options out there: Carlos Beltran, Carl Pavano, Matt Clement, Ben Sheets, Jeff Kent (assuming Houston declines the $9 million option for 2005), Guillermo Mota, Octavio Dotel, Roberto Alomar, Billy Wagner (if Philly declines the $9 million option for 2005), Troy Percival, Ray King, Jason Marquis, Bret Boone, Craig Counsell, Placido Polanco or even Jeff Conine (if the Marlins decline his $4.75 million option) are out there to fill up the holes in the 'pen, at CF, at 2B, or on the bench.

[Guest cpac]

Why should the Yankees even cut their payroll to 125 million???? Why should a team that makes hundreds of millions of dollars have to cut their payroll. Why cant the Yankees spend as much as they want and as much as they can afford. They already give out tons of money in revenue sharing and penalties. Not like these other teams are increasing their payroll with the money the Yankees are giving them. For example look at Minnesota and their Billionaire cheapskate owner Carl Pohlad. This man would have probably have won a World Series right now if he invested a little into his team and not his bank.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Why should the Yankees even cut their payroll to 125 million???? Why should a team that makes hundreds of millions of dollars have to cut their payroll. Why cant the Yankees spend as much as they want and as much as they can afford. They already give out tons of money in revenue sharing and penalties. Not like these other teams are increasing their payroll with the money the Yankees are giving them. For example look at Minnesota and their Billionaire cheapskate owner Carl Pohlad. This man would have probably have won a World Series right now if he invested a little into his team and not his bank.

You obviously haven't been paying attention to the discussion. They shouldn't sign people to these huge contracts, because if they don't perform they can't get rid of them. Thus you end up having to fix your team soley through free agency (they traded away all their prospects) and when you get to a season like this when there is little of what the Yankees really need (Beltran and possibly Pavano) you have to stick with the same bunch of losers that couldn't get it done last year.

[The Man in Blak 0]

when you get to a season like this when there is little of what the Yankees really need (Beltran and possibly Pavano) you have to stick with the same bunch of losers that couldn't get it done last year.

 

Except that's not really the case, as I explained with my final list of free agents above. If I were Brian Cashman and I wanted to fill out those remaining nine slots, I'd go after:

 

Expensive options:

Carlos Beltran - His potential contributions to the team should require no explanation.

 

Ben Sheets - Back problems, schmack problems. This kid is 25 and he's blowing people away. Sign him.

 

Jeff Kent - He's talking retirement, but he actually posted better numbers than last year and he doesn't seem to be falling off the map just yet. Not only is he a right-handed batter with pop at a premier position, Kent's also a veteran with plenty of playoff experience.

 

Potential Bargains:

Placido Polanco - Polanco's a former .300 hitter who ended very strongly (.326, 12 homers after the all-star break). Most importantly, Polanco gives the Yankees some positional flexibility, by being able to play solid defense all over the infield. Even if Kent doesn't sign on, you could do far worse than Polanco at 2B.

 

Jeff Conine - Bring him on simply as a bench player who can play a couple of different positions (can spell Matsui in LF, give Bernie/Giambi a rest at 1B). He's decent with the glove and, like Kent, he's a veteran with plenty of playoff experience.

 

Ray King - King's likely to be the best available LOOGY on the market and, given that the Run Fairy is their primary left-hander out of the pen, the Yankees could definitely use him.

 

Joe Kennedy - In case you didn't notice, Joe Kennedy posted a 3.66 ERA in 27 starts for the Colorado Rockies. He's a young lefty who's getting ready to enter his "physical prime" (25 years old) - he'd certainly be worth a $4-6 million flier.

 

Jeremy Affeldt - And now the gamble. You win with Affeldt, a 25 year-old lefty with considerable upside, you win big. The Royals would like to keep him, but I doubt they're going to outbid the Yankees, especially considering Affeldt's injury concerns (and George's limitless pockets). At best, he becomes the left-handed heir to Rivera's closer throne or even a nasty fifth starter (and second lefty in the rotation). At worst, he eats up innings as a long reliever (something the Yankees don't have) when he's not fighting off blister problems.

 

After that, promote Dioner Navarro to be the backup catcher and you get the following team:

 

SS - Jeter

CF - Beltran

3B - Rodriguez

RF - Sheffield

1B - Giambi

LF - Matsui

2B - Kent

C - Posada

DH - Williams

 

Bench:

C - Navarro

IF - Polanco

1B/OF - Conine

CF - Lofton

 

Starters:

RHP: Sheets, Mussina, Brown, Vasquez

LHP: Kennedy

 

CL - Rivera

LHP: King, Heredia, Affeldt

RHP: Quantrill, Gordon, Karsay