The Marine who shot dead an injured man

[Vanhalen 0]

What do you think of this dude who was caught on camera killing an unarmed injured Iraqi, now before the responses come, I'm not defending the Iraqi in the slightest, as he could have been an insurgent, I would imagine it would be hard to tell in the battlefield(after all, they dont exactly wear uniforms with their allegiances on), but was he right to kill him? And if he was, should he face a court martial, in what will in all probability, become a showpiece trial?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4014901.stm

 

The US military has announced it is looking into whether an American marine in Falluja shot dead a severely wounded Iraqi insurgent at point-blank range.

Television footage shows US soldiers entering a building as injured prisoners lie on the floor.

 

The soldier, who has not been identified, has been removed from the field and faces possible charges.

 

Lt Gen John Sattler promised to pursue the facts of the case "thoroughly" before taking further measures.

 

The BBC's James Robbins says the incident could prove highly damaging and that the US military will need to answer key questions about whether the rules of engagement were broken during the incident.

 

It must explain, he says, whether wounded combatants were abandoned, or killed, illegally.

 

But the BBC's Baghdad correspondent Caroline Hawley says most Iraqis will not be surprised, after the scandal of US abuse of Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib facility in Baghdad.

 

US-led forces said they have now gained overall control in Falluja, trapping rebels in the south of the city.

 

The images of the alleged point-blank shooting of an Iraqi insurgent were taken by an NBC reporter embedded with the US troops in the Sunni city under assault.

 

They show a group of marines from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, armed with rifles, entering a building near a mosque last Saturday, 13 November.

 

The mosque had been used by insurgents to attack US forces, who had stormed it a day earlier, killing 10 militants and wounding five.

 

At least three severely wounded men are seen in a room inside the building - two are slumped against one of the walls, partially covered with a blanket.

 

The NBC's Kevin Sites says the wounded men had been left in the mosque after being treated by a group of marines following Friday's fighting.

 

Mr Sites says soldiers from a different unit went and apparently shot the men again on Saturday without knowing whether they were armed.

 

"Then one of the marines points his rifle at the head of one of the injured, an old man, saying, 'He's faking he's dead'," Mr Sites' description continues.

 

"The sound of a shot is then heard. And in the background, another soldier says, 'Well, he's dead now'."

 

The day before the incident, the marine who allegedly did the point-blank shooting had reportedly been shot in the cheek and returned to duty, while another marine in the same unit had been killed by explosives planted in the body of a dead insurgent.

 

Gen Sattler, commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said the purpose of the investigation was to determine "whether the marine acted in self defence, violated military law or failed to comply with the law of armed conflict".

 

"We follow the law of armed conflict and we hold ourselves to a high standard of accountability," Gen Sattler said.

 

US marines have been battling with sporadic but fierce pockets of resistance inside the city. They say they have already killed 1,200 insurgents in the week-long assault.

 

The offensive is now concentrated mainly in southern districts, where small groups of rebels are "fighting to the death", US commanders say.

 

Aid agencies are warning of a humanitarian disaster in Falluja, which has been without water or electricity for a week.

[Guest INXS]

I was sickened and disgusted when I heard the audio of this footage on Five Live last night. Acts of sickening brutality such as this are only going to fan the flames of hatred towards the American occupiers and cause resentment amongst the civilian population and throughout the arab world. The fact that the day before a unit had tended to the injured men shows that it isn't policy to snuff out any Iraqi when one feels like it and that some level headedness prevails but this incidents liek this can simply not be allowed to happen, not only because it is inhumane and quite honestly murder, but because it also goes against America's attempts at bringing peace and stability to the region.

 

I know that some here are going to argue that the murdered Iraqi was an 'insurgent' and that he deserved to have been killed but that is a reasoning that I simply cant agree with. Shooting an unarmed, injured, suspected insurgent simply isn't acceptable.

 

I shudder to think what other sickening war crimes will be revealed as the occupation progresses.

 

I think that the marine in question should be tried for murder.

[Guest The Masked Avenger]

"What do you think of this dude who was caught on camera killing an unarmed injured Iraqi (...)"

 

 

That it is even necessary to ask, speaks volumes of the situation in the U.S.

 

-TMA

[edotherocket 0]

It's a pretty tricky situation really.

 

I mean on one hand, it's going to be pretty hard to find out whether he was an insurgent or an innocent civillian but obviously since its become a big media story, the repurcussions of this incident mean more than that.

 

If he was an insurgent, there is still the matter of trying to convince the Iraqi people that it was the right thing to do.

 

I think they're pretty fucked on this one either way. It'll result in negative press which will linger for months.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Well maybe if he didn't shoot at soldiers from a mosque beforehand he wouldn't have been put in that situation. Fuck him. I'm glad he's dead...

[Jobber of the Week 0]

All I can say is that I hope that soldier doesn't try and run for President, because if he does the same people who think it was a good deed today are going to create Iraqi War Veterans for Truth and torpedo him with ads about how dishonorable it was.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I was sickened and disgusted when I heard the audio of this footage on Five Live last night. Acts of sickening brutality such as this are only going to fan the flames of hatred towards the American occupiers and cause resentment amongst the civilian population and throughout the arab world. The fact that the day before a unit had tended to the injured men shows that it isn't policy to snuff out any Iraqi when one feels like it and that some level headedness prevails but this incidents liek this can simply not be allowed to happen, not only because it is inhumane and quite honestly murder, but because it also goes against America's attempts at bringing peace and stability to the region.

 

I know that some here are going to argue that the murdered Iraqi was an 'insurgent' and that he deserved to have been killed but that is a reasoning that I simply cant agree with. Shooting an unarmed, injured, suspected insurgent simply isn't acceptable.

 

I shudder to think what other sickening war crimes will be revealed as the occupation progresses.

 

I think that the marine in question should be tried for murder.

I think the hilarious thing is if the situation was reversed you'd be making every excuse in the book for some terrorist doing this to an American.

 

None of us were there so there's no point drawing judgements. Let the military handle it.

[Guest The Masked Avenger]

There is nothing tricky about it at all. The man was unarmed and injured, and clearly not resisting or attempting to fight. Even *if* he was an insurgent (or "unlawful combatant" or whatever phrase one wants to make up in order to justify one's actions) he should still have been taken into custody and given medical treatment. Either, he's a soldier, and is thus protected by the Geneva Convention, or he's a civilian and thus protected by law, if nothing else, he is protected by the Human Rights. He *may* have been a criminal and he *may* have commited crimes, but that is no justification for summariliy executing him.

Frankly, I'm stunned that there is even a discussion about it. Even if one supports G.W. Bush and this war, it should not necessariliy follow that one is in favour of executing unarmed and injured humans.

Seriously.

 

-TMA

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I tend not to judge people in these situations. A video tape doesn't tell anywhere near a fraction of the story and I'm going to leave it to people that understand to judge the guy. It's really easy to be on a moral highground over someone when you don't have the first clue about what they go through and when you aren't there.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

All I can say is that I hope that soldier doesn't try and run for President, because if he does the same people who think it was a good deed today are going to create Iraqi War Veterans for Truth and torpedo him with ads about how dishonorable it was.

 

As long as that guy doesn't pin the blame on his fellow troops, I think he'll be OK...

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Here's a little nugget from the story that nobody seems to have mentioned here.

 

The day before the incident, the marine who allegedly did the point-blank shooting had reportedly been shot in the cheek and returned to duty, while another marine in the same unit had been killed by explosives planted in the body of a dead insurgent.

 

And like I said before -- fuck him. I'm sure Big Media is sad because this didn't happen before the election...

[Swift Terror 0]

If the guy killed him just for fun, the military will court martial him six ways to Sunday.

 

I love how some people are calling it murder, when they don't even know what exactly happened.

 

Men have died because of booby traps on dead men and wounded men. As kkk pointed out, this guy was wounded by just such an incident.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Yeah, because you know Arab men NEVER strap themselves with explosives...

[Vanhalen 0]

Thats why I was deliberatley open-ended in my post, as it is still quite ambigous, despite the video footage thats been on the net(worth a check out)

[Vanhalen 0]

My main concern, to follow on from my previous point, is that this(if it goes to court-martial) will become a show piece trial, with a politically correct ending(or have I been watching Rules Of Engagement too much )

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Probably.

 

Thank God there weren't cable news networks during WWII...

[Guest CronoT]

It's a pretty tricky situation really.

 

I mean on one hand, it's going to be pretty hard to find out whether he was an insurgent or an innocent civillian but obviously since its become a big media story, the repurcussions of this incident mean more than that.

 

If he was an insurgent, there is still the matter of trying to convince the Iraqi people that it was the right thing to do.

 

I think they're pretty fucked on this one either way. It'll result in negative press which will linger for months.

The Rules of Engagement on this are very simple. Once a combatant is injured beyond the point of further resistance, or throws down his or her weapon, they become a non-combatant. Once someone is a non-combatant, shooting them is attempted murder, and killing them is at least 2nd Degree Murder.

 

It's that simple.

[Vanhalen 0]

Thats a good point, but hasnt there been new Rules Of Engagement written for the Iraq war, especially in dealing with Battlefield Combatants

[Guest CronoT]

Thats a good point, but hasnt there been new Rules Of Engagement written for the Iraq war, especially in dealing with Battlefield Combatants

If the guy he shot was going for a hidden weapon, such as a hold-out pistol, or a knife or machete, then it can be considered self-defense. If not, it's murder.

[Vanhalen 0]

I've seen the footage, and the dude seems really out of it, hes been shot and left to die, and hes sort of slumped down against a wall with a fair bit of blood around

[Guest CronoT]

I've seen the footage, and the dude seems really out of it, hes been shot and left to die, and hes sort of slumped down against a wall with a fair bit of blood around

Then it's murder.

[Vanhalen 0]

This isnt a very good picture but:

 

 

Thats how it happened, with him just walking up and shooting him, theres also a bit of a joke with another guy to the extent of, "Is he dead", the dude shoots him and then says, "Well hes dead now"

[The Man in Blak 0]

I tend not to judge people in these situations. A video tape doesn't tell anywhere near a fraction of the story and I'm going to leave it to people that understand to judge the guy. It's really easy to be on a moral highground over someone when you don't have the first clue about what they go through and when you aren't there.

My thoughts exactly. If the military feels that it's dishonorable conduct, then they'll discipline the soldier accordingly. Frankly, I would imagine that this happens in war, on both sides of the battlefield, far more times than any major media outlet ever reports.

[Jobber of the Week 0]

Here's a little nugget from the story that nobody seems to have mentioned here.

So, uhm, that makes it okay?

[Guest Cerebus]

I think nobody here or in the media knows even 10% of what they need of the circumstances (let alone the UCMJ) to pass judgement on this Marine.

[therealworldschampion 0]

Yeah, because you know Arab men NEVER strap themselves with explosives...

 

I don't know what you're talking about kkk because I've never seen Arab men as terrorists ever.....ever

[therealworldschampion 0]

Anyway about this incident, let the military discipline the soldier accordingly.

[Guest CronoT]

I think nobody here or in the media knows even 10% of what they need of the circumstances (let alone the UCMJ) to pass judgement on this Marine.

Agreed. That's why he should, and will, be tried in a military court, not in the "court of public opinion."

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Here's a little nugget from the story that nobody seems to have mentioned here.

So, uhm, that makes it okay?

Umm, yeah.

 

And I sure hope the subhuman monkey that I mentioned in that tidbit goes to trial for violating the code of pretending to be dead, as stated in Article IV, Section II on Page 203 of the Insurgent Handbook.

 

EDIT: I don't mean that it's OK to go out and shoot people, but I can understand why the soldier did what he did. I'm shocked beyond all belief that terrorists would play dead/pretend to surrender and then take a few shots at their captors...

[Dr. Tom 0]

Good. All insurgents, injured or healthy, should be shot in the head. Terrorist scum deserve no less.