Is HBK over-rated

[SuperJerk 0]

Alright, I could probably make a case of wanting to watch Mabel/Viscera more than Michaels, mainly for the suck factor though.

 

In no state of mind will I ever choose MABEL over Michaels in a "terms of good quality" match though.

Gotcha. I understand now.

[Shooting Star 0]

He is not the greatest of all time but he is still one of the most entertaining wrestlers on the Raw roster even after being out of action 4 years due to a back injury.

[BHK 0]

Shawn could bump, especially against big men, better than almost anyone I have personally ever seen.

 

Badd Blood 97, Survivor Series 96, SummerSlam 96. Heck, throw Mind Games in there too, even though Foley isn't that much of a "big" man.

 

Other than that, overrated? Yes.

 

 

Although I'm oneo f the few that really enjoys the Bret/Shawn Ironman.

[Guest LooneyTune]

It's kind of hard to enjoy when both men won't cooperate with each other, and are too selfish to job the first fall. Bret no-selling everything and Shawn doing 30 minutes of mat wrestling really shows Shawns weakness'. He needs a quick-pace match to be entertaining, but when he slows it down to the levels of an Iron-Man Match, it's boring as hell.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Even by American standards, from the 80s til now I'll take Paul London, Christopher Daniels, American Dragon, Kerry Von Erich, Bret Hart, Ric Flair, Rey Mysterio, Eddie Guerrero, Chris Benoit, Brian Pillman, Steve Austin, JEff Jarrett (kidding), Ted Dibiase, Randy Savage, The Dynamite Kid, Rick Martel, Tully Blanchard... the list goes on and on, over Shawn Michaels.

 

I liked Jannetty better than Michaels too.

You are out of your mind. Paul London only work an Indy style, which is far worse than teh Sports Entertanemnt Style. Kery Von Erich was an aweful heel, Rey Mystero is a one-trick pony, Tully never shined when it mattered most and Martel was mainly a mid-card loser for a reason.

[Guest Rrrsh]

The real underrated one is Steve Austin. A lot of people are familiar only with the punch, kick & stomp, injured face Austin we got in 1998-99, or the pale shadow of his former self that he was when he retired. He was fantastic for the other 90% of his career.

 

If we are talking about the complete package than even HHH has him beat. HHH has been on top longer, has drawn better, and has had far more influence in the industry than Shawn Michaels ever had.

Austin Pre knee injury is vastly underrated.

 

Austin post kneee injury is the most overrated wrestler on the face of the earth.

 

 

As for HHH, what has he drawn? He has been the number 1 guy since mid 02, with no one else on top with him. He has drawn flies. HHH influence on the industry is bad, so I don't think that counts.

[Guest LooneyTune]

2000 is one of the best years for WWF. Who headlined...pretty much every PPV, and if he didn't, was part of a major angle that could be a main event?

 

Triple H

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

giving the credit to Triple H for the success of 2000 is mostly unfair considering that The Rock was a equally promiant star of 2000 for the first half. The Business as a whole was clicking from the Top with HHH/Foley/Rock/TBS/Angle/Taker/Kane to the mid-card of Jericho/Benoit/Angle/Guerrero/Venis/Rikishi/Tazz to the tag teams of Duds/E&C/Hardyz/2 Cool and the storylines were at their peak under the excellent writing of Chris Kreski.

 

I credit 2000's success to Chris Kreski more then I do Triple H. The first show Stephanie took over full time (Series 00) is what many people consider the start of the downward spiral.

 

As for the topic @ hand; Shawn Isn't among the greatest and I strongly doubt anyone can *honestly* say that with a straight face. I'd place him #15-25 on my list. He's had many a good/great matches but he's over-rated and I agree pretty much wholeheartedly with LOSS on what he said about HBK's abilities and weaknesses.

[CanadianChick 0]

2000 is one of the best years for WWF. Who headlined...pretty much every PPV, and if he didn't, was part of a major angle that could be a main event?

 

Triple H

Couldn't you also partly credit that to Rock though? He was constantly in the main events too, right?

 

When the "hot" period for wrestling went down, and Triple H was still on top, it wasn't impressive to say the least. And his 'drawing' for his big return was just as underwhelming.

 

As for Micheals, I consider him one of the best at making the most out of the WWF style.

[Guest Rrrsh]

Shawn is not the best worker ever or anything.

 

But he is vastly underrated by smarks for two simple reasons. He has had ****+ matches with oppenents that go into the Double Digits. And, like someone said earlier, he is not the best at anything, but very few are as good as he is at so many qualities.

[alfdogg 0]

2000 is one of the best years for WWF. Who headlined...pretty much every PPV, and if he didn't, was part of a major angle that could be a main event?

 

Triple H

and the Rock.

[Guest The Shadow Behind You]

Just to add to the Rock/HHH main event debate

 

Royal Rumble

*The Royal Rumble that centered around only Rock, TBS and to an extent Kane.

 

No Way Out

*Mick Foley Vs Triple H. Hell in a Cell

 

WrestleMania 2000

*The Rock Vs The Big Show Vs Mick Foley Vs Triple H

 

Backlash

*Triple H Vs The Rock

 

Judgement Day

*Triple H Vs The Rock

 

King of the Ring

*Triple H and Shane & Vince McMahon Vs The Rock, Kane and Undertaker

 

Fully Loaded

*The Rock Vs Chris Benoit

 

SummerSlam

*The Rock Vs Kurt Angle Vs Triple H

 

Unforgiven

*The Rock Vs Chris Benoit

 

No Mercy

*The Rock Vs Kurt Angle

 

Survivor Series

*Steve Austin Vs Triple H

 

Armageddon

*Kurt Angle Vs Triple H Vs The Rock Vs Undertaker Vs Rikishi Vs Austin.

 

 

10 of 12 were headlined by The Rock. 8 of 12 were headlined by Triple H.

 

So Rock main evented more then HHH.

[Guest LooneyTune]

HHH/Jericho was a double main event, and HHH/Angle from Unforgiven also could've been a main event.

 

It's even in my eyes, and I think HHH/Jericho and HHH/Angle were MUCH better programs than Rock/Benoit and a thrown together 4-Way.

[WrestlingFan4Ever 0]

Shawn Michaels is one of the greatest workers in WWE history, and in big match situations. If he's not good enough for you, I don't know who is. He revolutionized the WWE style and the majority of indy guys working today cite him as their major influence. BTW, don't forget that it was Shawn Michaels who trained Paul London and Spanky.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Michaels didn't train London. This was mentioned somewhere else this week and I'm too lazy to look it up at 3 a.m.

 

I made a list of about 20-30 people who are more entertaining to watch than Michaels in a real wrestling match. Michaels wrestling is a 20 minute armbar.

[WrestlingFan4Ever 0]

I'm sorry. I meant American Dragon instead of London. My mistake.

[Promoter 0]

I can't believe some things I've read here since Shawn Michaels was at one point the Chris Benoit predecessor on the net in 1995 and 1996. I think Loss summarized it best and whoever said that Shawn was not overly great at one thing, but very good at all aspects is correct.

 

Okay, let's break things down here. The "greatest of all-time" slogan was a marketing campaign by the wwf in 1997 and 1998 when they had the top stars like Bret Hart, Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, and Ric Flair in wcw with the marketing scheme of "icons". I mean they had to do something to raise the level of HBK and its wwf championship. The wwf in retaliation used marketing to give Shawn Michaels a boost as the champion or top star and don't kid yourselves he was in 1996 and 1997. Vince craftily had Shawn "drive out" Diesel and Bret Hart who were crowned the new generation leaders in 1994-95. HBK was also marketed in a fashion to give the illusion that he was the real leader of the nWo through association with Hall and Nash. It was Vince Mcmahon's marketing scheme that came up with the greatest pure athlete in the history of the wwf theory. The "icon that can still go" as HBK even challenged all these guys on monday night raw. Okay, strip all that away. You would also have to do that with Ric Flair too. A lot of his "greatest of all-time" is marketing too.

 

I also see Triple H 2000 coming up a lot here. I will say right now that if things were reversed with HBK of say 96 with his character of 94-95 heel would have perhaps done a better job than HHH with the talent Triple H had to work with. HBK's best year of 96 had him working with Nash(and yes it's arguable Bret pulled better matches for Nash, but who's to say that his babyface stuff wasn't deliberate to turn HBK face post Mania 11 as what happened in the days of pro wrestling planning things out months in advance?), British Bulldog, Vader, Mankind(why isn't it said that Foley believes that his best match came at the hands of Michaels?), and Sid. As mentioned the heel HBK in 1997 and 1998 was a heat machine with him riling up fans to jump over the railing to attack him.

 

How can that be compared with Foley's heat of 2000(rumoured retirement and Cactus Jack persona), The Rock at his absolute popularity peak, Jericho, Benoit, Angle, and Steve Austin(who HBK also worked better matches with in 1996 and 1997, but I will cancel it out due to Austin being in his physical peak as well to be fair)? Come on now. I think it's safe to say that Triple H 2000 would probably be the Triple H of the last couple of years if he was put into the 1996 situation Michaels was in. I mean the proof is there when he has to work with lesser talent. Wasn't it HBK who many praised HHH for showing signs of his 2000 work in 2002 with the SummerSlam match? I know some look back now on the match and have lowered the praise, but the fact of the matter is that HBK did bring back some of the HHH magic that everyone was saying was missing that year. HHH also did not have a juggernaut of a promotion on his tail with the hot nWo of 1996. He had the pretty much weakened wcw that saw the radicalz jump ship. I don't know I just think comparing HHH to Shawn Michaels in terms of ranking in a list with Triple H on top is strange. Shawn still put on better performances than HHH last year with Jericho. His match with Benoit this year was better than the singles match with HHH. It's the same thing I argue with other fans about in terms of them saying Triple H was better than Bret Hart. Again, I give the guys who had a lot less to work with more of the advantage as Austin had to rise up with someone doing a great job in getting him to rise right?

 

As been stated, HBK's problem is that his stint of greatness was short and always came at times that did not fall into a timeframe to favour him with the masses. Some may blame that on the man, but really can anyone truly say HBK wouldn't have continued to be a heat magnet post Mania 14 if he didn't have to retire? He was an integral part of "attitude" and would have fit right in with Rock and Austin, but perhaps him being gone allowed them to become greater without him hindering them. I don't know, but the dogging of Michaels here and eliminating the stuff he brought to the table is strange(although I agree with the negativity about that damn ironman match). Strange enough, I think Shawn worked better as a face in matches, but his strongest characters were always heel.

[WrestlingFan4Ever 0]

I agree. The negativity here is highly disturbing. HBK is one of the best main event wrestlers the WWE ever had. And if you wanna start saying how HBK was overrated, lets first start with Ric Flair.

[Guest Askewniverse]

Unforgiven

   *The Rock Vs Chris Benoit

The main event of Unforgiven 2000 was a fatal four way match.

[Shanghai Kid 0]

Yeah the negativity here is a bit disturbring. For WWE fans, you can't really deny that HBK isn't one of the best wrestlers in WWE history. Maybe worldwide he doesn't rank with the best, but in North America he would certainly be in my top 15.

 

He had good to great matches with alot of different guys. He never really got a shot to work with guys like Angle/Benoit/Guerrero in his prime. Considering who he had to work with, he had one of the best years of anybody in 1996.

 

He arguably had the match of the year 4 years in a row in North America.

 

I definetly consider him one of the all time greats from a North American perspective. Bret Hart is treated like some legend right? I think Shawn is right up there with Bret.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Yeah, I am not in any way arguing that he isn't top 15 in North America (personally, I'd have him at around 9 or 10). But if you go around various boards you will see most people putting him in the Top 3. He is not Top 3. And that is why he is overrated.

 

Bret is above Shawn for one reason and one reason only. Quality-wise, they were comparable. Bret just did it for much longer. Had Shawn not taken large amounts of time off in 93 (quit company for 3 months), 94 (spent only 4 months as a regular competitor), 95 (marine incident), 97 (lost his smile, plus was injured for a couple of months in the summer), and from 98-02 (retirement due to back problems), he could have surpassed Bret. But you can't ignore that Bret crushes Shawn when it comes to longevity.

[Guest Brian]

I'm sorry. I meant American Dragon instead of London. My mistake.

Dragon training with Regal in Memphis was a huge part of how he wrestles, and why everyone thinks of him so highly.

[reign 0]

The points on HBK being great in all aspects of wrestling are right on as he could do nearly anything great from in ring work to mike skills. My position is that from a entertainment standpoint he could carry feuds that were worth watching and he made them good. HBK could possibly be paired with anyone and have both good matches and I think he could make the fued and subsequent storyline viable also. Maybe he's not the best at any one thing as somebody mentioned earlier but he could cerainly be considered the most effective as a whole. He has what a lot of others don't. And as Flair said his comeback IS the greatest of all time hands down. I for one still mark for HBK, his enterence, and his moveset. I think plebty of guys can wrestle better than HBK but I find myself getting into the matches more when he's involved.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

The greatest comeback of all time was Austin's. Here is a guy who was almost crippled, right at the point where he was about to become the next big star, and managed not only to return and become the biggest draw in the history of the WWF, but came back again to have one of the greatest in-ring years of any wrestler ever in 2001.

 

Flair's comeback from the plane crash was better than Shawn's too.

[reign 0]

You have a point but I was considering HBK's as more of an actual comeback because he was out for so long with no real exposure of tv while Austin was out there almost every week while nursing the injury...they even made it part of his storyline. I don't really remember Flairs comeback and don't remember what he said in his book about it but I'll give you that point too. My take is that HBK left on top but was out for like four years and then returned and has been putting on great matches. Flair had yet to win a world title before the crash I believe and was just starting out. Austin too built on his injury. But those were more serious injuries to comeback from and both Austin and Flair have had m ore successful careers than HBK. Can we both be right or is that against TSM code?

[Guest LooneyTune]

I wouldn't push Shawn has been having great matches. Most of his big matches seem to be disapointing, and his only great singles matches seems to be against Triple H (which really isn't a big mystery why). Plus the fact he doesn't know how to fucking sell an injury during matches anymore hurts a match rating. Heel works the back for 10 minutes... HBK magically pops up and dances around like a male stripper and ignores all damage done.

[Guest Ray]

"his only great singles matches seems to be against Triple H"

 

Chris Benoit on Raw in May says hi.

 

"Plus the fact he doesn't know how to fucking sell an injury during matches anymore hurts a match rating."

 

Shawn certainly knows how to sell. He also knows that fired-up babyface comebacks are a staple of pro wrestling.

 

"Heel works the back for 10 minutes... "

 

How many opponents actually worked his back? Not many.

 

It would be nice if we could have a single topic about Shawn Michaels without someone bringing nothing but the tired, old, predictable, completely un-original nip-up bashing argument.

[Guest LooneyTune]

1 match is hardly enough to argue against a "seems to be" comment. I'm talking about his matches vs. Orton, the Armageddon match vs. Batista, at least half of his matches with Hunter, the matches with Jericho in 2003, Bad Blood vs. Flair, The REALLY shitty HIAC Match at this years Bad Blood. His 1st Raw Match since retiring vs. RVD... I can keep going if I cared to remember every match he's had.

 

His big matches have usually been major let downs, which they have been. Even the match with Kane at Unforgiven was pretty blah, and carrying giants is what makes Michaels stand out. If Benoit can do it (and he did), so could Michaels, and he didn't.

[Precious Roy 0]

Shawn Michaels is both overrated and underrated. He does know how to build a match and can have some fun transistions in his matches. And for me personally (just for me though I've seen the same reaction with other people) he makes one of the best heels I've seen. His offence is a mixed bag. He can do a lot of different stuff and some of it's really nice looking but it can also be too light at times.

 

I'll agree with that. Better worker as a heel and at his best bumping and retreating rather than controling a match. Offense is spotty and can often come off weak (especially now w/ his lesser physique and reliance on punches) but extrememly intelligent and aware in the ring and in his prime one of the most coordinated and consistent athletes we've ever seen in the business. From 94-96 he was arguably the best wrestler in North America, and other than Bret the best worker in such a high profile spot at the time. In terms of physical ability he is a shell of himself these days and IMO not nearly as charismatic outside of the ring, but he can still work a crowd and tell a story with the best of them. Michaels is really the prototype "sports entertainer" as far as smaller workers go.

 

IMO, in his prime one of the best performers I've ever seen, whether he's overrated or not depends on what criteria you use and who's word you take as the gospel, but I rank him in the same breath as Flair, Steamboat, Savage, Hart and others of that ilk.

[chaosrage 0]

"his only great singles matches seems to be against Triple H"

 

Chris Benoit on Raw in May says hi.

 

"Plus the fact he doesn't know how to fucking sell an injury during matches anymore hurts a match rating."

 

Shawn certainly knows how to sell. He also knows that fired-up babyface comebacks are a staple of pro wrestling.

 

"Heel works the back for 10 minutes... "

 

How many opponents actually worked his back? Not many.

 

It would be nice if we could have a single topic about Shawn Michaels without someone bringing nothing but the tired, old, predictable, completely un-original nip-up bashing argument.

Holy shit, Ray is defending Shawn. I had to read that a couple times to make sure it wasn't sarcasm. You've changed.