Convince Me Our President Isn't A Terrorist

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

Um....he also got into wars with Iran and Kuwait? I'm not sure if he started the Iranian war (probably did), but he DID invade Kuwait with no provocation

 

I had it explained to me, that Kuwait gave Iraq anything they wanted during the Iraq-Iran war of the 80's. Saddam decided that instead of repaying Kuwait, he'd invade.

 

Don't treat me and the rest of the public as if we're stupid and tell us he had a hand in what occured on 9/11

 

No offence, but the public is stupid in general. Maybe not stupid, but gullible and hysterical. How many bought the WMD lies of Bush? As a Canadian(and as such, a strong supporter of Canadian beef), I saw how the US-Canadian border was closed to beef. Why? Hysteria on the news. We're hysterical and believe what we see. And no, not all of you are, please don't flame, this is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

 

we're doing the right thing, both for the US and the world as a whole.

 

I disagree. For the US? Maybe, since it will mean small dicked Americans will maybe one day be able to drive their gas guzzling SUV's and Humvee's for a slightly cheaper price with the oil that Iraq was invaded for.

 

For the world? Probably not. Thousands of killed Iraqis, thousands of homeless Iraqis probably aren't better off now. The little boy who lost his limbs and his family because the US military is 'liberating him' certainly isn't better off.

 

Bragging about living in the greatest country in the world is like bragging about dick size. Who fucking cares? And what message does it send to our allies when we demean them by saying we're better than them?

 

Amen. Now, I'll admit I'm patriotic to the point that it's sometimes ridiculous, and I'm sure I've referred to Canada as the greatest country in the world before. But I have legit grievances with the States, and that's why I air them. I love Canada. I will not bring down the States(or any other country, for that matter) to make myself feel better as a Canadian. Every citizen in the world probably has at least one reason to feel proud of their native land, as such, every person alive has the right to be patriotic. But how do you measure greatness in that sense? So, let's just be proud, but not refer to ourselves as the best/greatest.

 

Its influence is far beyond that of any other nation, its economic power is overwhelming, and militarily it is dominant

 

Why is that a good thing? A culture influx, a lesser developed world outside of the West. Nope, can't imagine why these insurgents are bitter.

 

Dominant military? That's cold and terrible. Have you ever considered that there's bound to be bitterness when a foriegn leader tells you that he doesn't want your leader having weapons,(how appropriate, because there were none) but most Americans are thrilled to pieces over the size of their military and it's weapons?

 

Yes, I agree the world is better of with Saddam ousted. But the means were shameful and unnecessary.

 

Finally, these are my opnions. Don't just call me stupid. If you have a retort, I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

[MrRant 0]

Goddamn Canadian hippie.

[Guest BDC]

Um....he also got into wars with Iran and Kuwait? I'm not sure if he started the Iranian war (probably did), but he DID invade Kuwait with no provocation

 

I had it explained to me, that Kuwait gave Iraq anything they wanted during the Iraq-Iran war of the 80's. Saddam decided that instead of repaying Kuwait, he'd invade.

 

Don't treat me and the rest of the public as if we're stupid and tell us he had a hand in what occured on 9/11

 

No offence, but the public is stupid in general. Maybe not stupid, but gullible and hysterical. How many bought the WMD lies of Bush? As a Canadian(and as such, a strong supporter of Canadian beef), I saw how the US-Canadian border was closed to beef. Why? Hysteria on the news. We're hysterical and believe what we see. And no, not all of you are, please don't flame, this is my opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

 

we're doing the right thing, both for the US and the world as a whole.

 

I disagree. For the US? Maybe, since it will mean small dicked Americans will maybe one day be able to drive their gas guzzling SUV's and Humvee's for a slightly cheaper price with the oil that Iraq was invaded for.

 

For the world? Probably not. Thousands of killed Iraqis, thousands of homeless Iraqis probably aren't better off now. The little boy who lost his limbs and his family because the US military is 'liberating him' certainly isn't better off.

 

Bragging about living in the greatest country in the world is like bragging about dick size. Who fucking cares? And what message does it send to our allies when we demean them by saying we're better than them?

 

Amen. Now, I'll admit I'm patriotic to the point that it's sometimes ridiculous, and I'm sure I've referred to Canada as the greatest country in the world before. But I have legit grievances with the States, and that's why I air them. I love Canada. I will not bring down the States(or any other country, for that matter) to make myself feel better as a Canadian. Every citizen in the world probably has at least one reason to feel proud of their native land, as such, every person alive has the right to be patriotic. But how do you measure greatness in that sense? So, let's just be proud, but not refer to ourselves as the best/greatest.

 

Its influence is far beyond that of any other nation, its economic power is overwhelming, and militarily it is dominant

 

Why is that a good thing? A culture influx, a lesser developed world outside of the West. Nope, can't imagine why these insurgents are bitter.

 

Dominant military? That's cold and terrible. Have you ever considered that there's bound to be bitterness when a foriegn leader tells you that he doesn't want your leader having weapons,(how appropriate, because there were none) but most Americans are thrilled to pieces over the size of their military and it's weapons?

 

Yes, I agree the world is better of with Saddam ousted. But the means were shameful and unnecessary.

 

Finally, these are my opnions. Don't just call me stupid. If you have a retort, I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

Is it just me or did the US kill your puppy when you were a little boy?

[Guest SideFXs]

Those last couple of posts just proves that '60's draft dodging hippies went to Canada and had babies.

 

By the way, Hussein is the terrorist.

 

And if you would just consider that some European countries, China, and Russia were corrupted by Hussein, via the U.N. in the 'Food for Oil' scandal, then you can understand what is really going on in Iraq.

 

Super powers covertly battling for oil resources.

 

Removing a mass murdering, oil greedy, tyrant and then democratizing Iraq is the best thing this country can do to insure the free flow of oil at market prices.

 

Bush isn't for Big Oil interest. He is trying to save our economy and your job. Five dollar a gallon gas would wreck our economy! Think how close Hussein came to controlling the biggest oil fields in the Middle East.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Bush isn't for Big Oil interest. He is trying to save our economy and your job. Five dollar a gallon gas would wreck our economy! Think how close Hussein came to controlling the biggest oil fields in the Middle East.

Now that's funny.

[Red Baron 0]

this is what happens when CNN has plagued the American people...

[Guest sek69]

America is not always wrong, and America is not always right.

 

Removing Saddam was a noble goal executed horribly by people who don't listen to people who say anything they don't want to hear.

 

Its like we have Vince McMahon and his band of yes-men running the country.

 

I'm a liberal who's proud to be an American. I know some people can't believe that's possible, but before Bush it used to be possible to not like the person in charge and still like America. Lord knows there are folks who didn't care a whole lot for Bill Clinton, but no one told them "STFU U AMERIKA HAT0R~!"

 

Team Bush is doing a horrible job in Iraq now, and it doesn't mean you hate America to point that out. In fact, trying to ignore it just makes it the elephant in the room that everyone tries to avoid.

 

The best we can hope for at this point is that Iraq doesn't end up an Islamic state and that no one assassinates the US-approved puppet leader we're surely going to insist run the country.

 

The sadly ironic point is the "kick their ass and take their gas" crowd are going to be disappointed since no matter what happens in Iraq, Saudi Arabia has the world's largest oil resources and the power to really bend the US over with oil prices if they see fit.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Bomb the Arabs and take their oil.

 

Bomb the Indians and take their casinos.

[Guest BDC]

The best we can hope for at this point is that Iraq doesn't end up an Islamic state and that no one assassinates the US-approved puppet leader we're surely going to insist run the country.

Yep, that's exactly what we want. Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

 

Is that why we're trying to do democratic elections?

 

The sadly ironic point is the "kick their ass and take their gas" crowd are going to be disappointed since no matter what happens in Iraq, Saudi Arabia has the world's largest oil resources and the power to really bend the US over with oil prices if they see fit.

 

It's all of OPEC. I just don't happen to care for cartels myself.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

 

Absolutley, Sek.

 

My American girlfriend and I discussed this last week, that speaking out against anything American post 9-11 makes you a traitor and treasonous. Look how hated Michael Moore is by many. Now granted, he's kind of an ass and does use video editing to his advantage and what not, but still.

 

Dj and I agree that it makes you a better American to speak out when applicable against the government, that's what makes democracy.

 

Another hearty pat on the back, Sek. And fine work on the dancing Sektor in your avatar.

 

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

Look how hated Michael Moore is by many. Now granted, he's kind of an ass and does use video editing to his advantage and what not, but still.

 

- Moore deserves pretty much any kind of hate he gets for being a self-serving jackass who makes profits off of other peoples' misery. Hell, F 9/11 made a shitload of cash, so why didn't he use some of it to help the families of the soldiers he exploited instead of making that tasteless picture of Bush with the pics of the dead soldiers from up to that point?

[Guest Failed Mascot]

Who's to say he didn't spend some of the money doing that? Remember during his TV Nation days when he bought computers for the schools of Flint Michigan? He didn't announce anything and when it was finally brought to the media's attention he did and they asked him why he didn't say anything he responded with "I didn't know I was suppose to.".

[AlwaysPissedOff 0]

If he did, then it would have been found out one way or another as pretty much anything can be leaked to the media.

[Guest sek69]

Yep, that's exactly what we want. Suuuuuuuuuuuuure.

 

Is that why we're trying to do democratic elections?

 

Do you really believe thats what we're doing?

[Guest BDC]

Who's to say he didn't spend some of the money doing that? Remember during his TV Nation days when he bought computers for the schools of Flint Michigan? He didn't announce anything and when it was finally brought to the media's attention he did and they asked him why he didn't say anything he responded with "I didn't know I was suppose to.".

Do you think that fatass wouldn't take the chance to tell EVERYONE about that if he did it?

 

Oh, and btw Sek, are you going to tell me that we aren't? What's next? That someone shot a missle into the Pentagon?

[cbacon 0]

Applying a 'democracy' full of heavy political influence from the US is hardly a democracy. They told Iran and Syria to go to hell in terms of meddling in the creation of such a fictional notion of democracy, while the US does just that. You can't hold proper elections in a war torn nation, an occupied nation, a nation under marital law. Nevermind the fact there is huge resentment towards these faux pas elections from many groups in Iraq. A proper democracy won't be able to sustain itself in such a heterogenous climate anyway.

 

The whole concept of these 'elections' are a good form of propoganda used to appeal to the gullible American who actually believes that things are getting better in Iraq to help justify the notion of invading.

[EricMM 0]

I can't believe this thread has gone to three pages.

 

No, he's not a terrorist, he's not trying to scare anybody.

 

Call him a warrior, a murderer, a spoiler, something like that.

 

Don't just try to turn him into his enemies. Don't try to make him a hypocrit. Hypocracy isn't even the worst thing there is.

[Highland 0]

A proper democracy won't be able to sustain itself in such a heterogenous climate anyway.

 

The last I checked, Canada and the US were heterogenous societies.

 

The whole concept of these 'elections' are a good form of propoganda used to appeal to the gullible American who actually believes that things are getting better in Iraq to help justify the notion of invading.

 

The entire 'concept' of these elections is to promote democracy. As usual you fail to see the broader picture. A stable, vibrant and free democracy will do far more damage to the cause of terrorism than any amount of carpet bombing. Quite a few people in the US and Canada say we should launch some nukes and vapourize the whole lot.

 

Would you prefer that?

 

Or perhaps you prefer the order and stability that Saddam brought to Iraq. Hitler and Stalin were very effective at that as well, by the way.

 

The groups of people you claim are opposed to democracy in Iraq are those militants that would be prosecuted for their crimes in a lawful society and the once powerful Sunni minority that controlled the country. Think South Africa.

[Highland 0]

I can't believe this thread has gone to three pages.

 

No, he's not a terrorist, he's not trying to scare anybody.

 

Call him a warrior, a murderer, a spoiler, something like that.

 

Don't just try to turn him into his enemies.  Don't try to make him a hypocrit.  Hypocracy isn't even the worst thing there is.

Indeed.

 

My better half (funny how certain phrases catch on here) is staunchly opposed to the war in Iraq and is an unabashed Democrat. She almost left me when I (half) jokingly said I'd vote for Bush (I fully support his actions in Iraq, I don't care for the Patriot Act).

 

We won't know how things will turn out for at least a few more years, but we've gotten through far far worse situations than the Iraqi war, and to compare it to Vietnam and the implication that we are way over our heads and are/will suffering massive casualities is absurd and such a lack of faith and support is insulting not only to those that serve, but those that have served before.

I shudder to think how we would have fared had we the amount and type of media coverage we have today with its constant predictions of doom and gloom during WWII. I daresay we'd have capitulated and retreated shortly after entering the war.

 

It's because of these war people decry so much, because of the efforts of the US and other democracies that people are allowed to call Bush a moron and not have to be fearful of being dragged out of their homes never to be seen again.

Edited December 17, 2004 by Highland

[cbacon 0]

The last I checked, Canada and the US were heterogenous societies.

 

You simply can't compare that to the tension and political instability between Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.

 

A stable, vibrant and free democracy will do far more damage to the cause of terrorism than any amount of carpet bombing.

 

Yes, because living in an occupied nation marred with US political influence is going to make the Iraqi's happy, especially the ones who lost their famalies during the onslaught. Did you know this is the sort of thing that fuels Islamic fundamentalism? This war has clearly shaken the hornet's nest, al Qaeda membership is rising and the fact that a Muslim majority is being manipluated by the West will certainly not be appealing.

 

Quite a few people in the US and Canada say we should launch some nukes and vapourize the whole lot.

 

Would you prefer that?

 

Yes, because those are the only two options right? Bomb them to death....or bomb many and set up permanent military bases?

 

Or perhaps you prefer the order and stability that Saddam brought to Iraq. Hitler and Stalin were very effective at that as well, by the way.

 

Except Saddam had the aid of the US during his rise to power. And when did I say that Saddam was the only other option? Hell, he wouldnt have gained as much power were it not for dealings with the US and the sanctions imposed that crippled the country. Why has it taken so long for the US to conveniently care about democracy in the Middle East while it still supports dictatorships? Hypocrisy, thy name is Bush.

 

The groups of people you claim are opposed to democracy in Iraq are those militants that would be prosecuted for their crimes in a lawful society and the once powerful Sunni minority that controlled the country. Think South Africa.

 

Incorrect. There's large members of Sunni and Shiiite groups alike that are boycotting these elections. 47 of them as of now. And they're protesting due to the extended use of force throughout the country. They're protesting because international law that regulate the relationship between occupier and occupied do not give occupying authorities the mandate to instigate a change in the country's social, economic and political structure. The main purpose of the election process is to secure a government that will facilitate long-lasting agreements with the US to keep its forces on Iraqi soil.

[TheBigSwigg 0]

Look how hated Michael Moore is by many. Now granted, he's kind of an ass and does use video editing to his advantage and what not, but still.

You know, this "video editing" that Michael Moore is hated for is basically modern day journalism. If anyone's read Mick Foley's books, you'll know that 20/20 edited his interview to make him seem to like backyard wrestling. Everyone does it. Moore just happens to do it to the wrong people. On a grander scale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course, there's not a scale much grander than his. *My first Michael Moore fat joke!*

[Justice 0]

You simply can't compare that to the tension and political instability between Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds.

Of course, they've never had a system where one didn't have absolute power over the others. Who is to say that with democracy these tensions won't calm due to each faction getting a voice?

 

Again, what would make this process legitimate to you? The UN? Considering the UN failures all around the world when it comes to holding elections (I think East Timor might be the latest of those, not sure), I think we have a better chance getting it done ourselves. What would prove that it's an actual democracy to you? Is the only way to prove it is for Iraq to elect a theocracy?

 

Yes, because living in an occupied nation marred with US political influence is going to make the Iraqi's happy, especially the ones who lost their famalies during the onslaught. Did you know this is the sort of thing that fuels Islamic fundamentalism? This war has clearly shaken the hornet's nest, al Qaeda membership is rising and the fact that a Muslim majority is being manipluated by the West will certainly not be appealing.

 

Well, if we are going by dead families, I'd say Saddam killed more and hurt more people, so I think they'd welcome the change.

 

On Al Qaeda membership: It'll always be going up whenever we do anything. If it isn't going up, then a terrorist organization harbored safely within another country will. What's the point of hunting these people down through 'police actions' when they'll always retreat to safe zones like Syria, Iran, SA, and Iraq?

 

You bring up Islamic Fundamentalism, but you never noticed that it's ALWAYS been like this. There has ALWAYS been like this due to the Fundamentalist Islamic states. Don't be fooled into thinking that since we've been there this is a new trend or something. Unless they are gone, this will ALWAYS be like this. Unless you have some magic answer (Which I'd love to hear, since you tend to criticize without ever giving your own solution), the only way of ridding the world of this threat is to destroy the states that propagate it.

 

Yes, because those are the only two options right? Bomb them to death....or bomb many and set up permanent military bases?

 

Perhaps you would like to hand them flowers and completely back out of the region while taking the blame for all their own actions as "Simply a response to American Imperialism"?

 

Except Saddam had the aid of the US during his rise to power. And when did I say that Saddam was the only other option? Hell, he wouldnt have gained as much power were it not for dealings with the US and the sanctions imposed that crippled the country. Why has it taken so long for the US to conveniently care about democracy in the Middle East while it still supports dictatorships? Hypocrisy, thy name is Bush.

 

Again, very minor. You can say as much as you want "70 cultures of Anthrax", but sadly we've never found any weapons made from that or derived from it in Iraq. And that IS a minor shipment; it's nothing that large.

 

Why do you ignore that our involvement and support was tolken and that France and Russia had far active support of him? Where is France building them a nuclear facility helping him into power, or perhaps Russia selling him just about everything his military was made of, including chemcial and biological weapons supplies? Or does that not help your argument of "THE US DID IT ALL!"

 

Okay, talk out your ass again; after the invasion, he splattered any form of rebellion against him. His power was fairly absolute before this, why would be any different afterwards? There was no chance for rebelling, so sanctions did little in the way of 'securing his power' which was already there and absolute before. And let's kindly forget the UN Scandal with Food-For-Oil conviently giving him millions of dollars to him and the Annan's.

 

Why did it take so long to care? Uh, I don't know if you read the entire thread through, but we've been caring for a long, long time now. We've been waiting to fix the mistake we left in Iraq. I think the hypocracy lies more in people like you, who bash the US for going in, then berate them for not going in sooner. You say we should have taken Saddam out after the Gulf, then produce quotes of the Administration saying we shouldn't have gone in after the Gulf and support it saying "They knew the mess that would occur!" You talk of us not caring, and then ignore that Saddam has caused the death of over 300,000 of his own people through negligence and skimming of aid programs. You say "We should have supported the rebellion" and then say "Well, they would have rebelled anyways, why go in?" Have it one way or the other.

 

Incorrect. There's large members of Sunni and Shiiite groups alike that are boycotting these elections. 47 of them as of now. And they're protesting due to the extended use of force throughout the country. They're protesting because international law that regulate the relationship between occupier and occupied do not give occupying authorities the mandate to instigate a change in the country's social, economic and political structure. The main purpose of the election process is to secure a government that will facilitate long-lasting agreements with the US to keep its forces on Iraqi soil.

 

Um... technically if we didn't institute a change in government, Saddam would still be in power and it would still be a dictatorship. You know this, right?

 

And you keep believing that we want troops over there forever and that we don't want the Iraqis to take over. It's cool to have dreams like that. Frankly, I can't wait until the day where we can hand it all over to the Iraqis and just get back on to handling our own affairs rather than having troops in a foreign country like they are right now. I just understand the necessity of it in the times that we are in.

[Twisted Intestine 0]

I always read these posts, and don't learn a thing. It always seems like neither side has any solid proof for their arguments, yet bashes everything the other side says and states their opinion as fact.

 

From what I've read, the Bush supporters do have more solid arguments though, but are still just as bad for blindly bashing the liberals.

 

I'm a Canadian and don't have any personal opinion on U.S. politics, but I just thought I'd point out that from a non-biased view, neither side is really convincing me that they're right.

[Guest BDC]

...I'm a Canadian and don't have any personal opinion on U.S. politics...

Good God, I wish there were more like you.