BHK Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 "Does Hart suck because he just didn't click that well in his matches with Nash" Bret vs Nash was great. I love him vs Nash from KOTR 94 and SSeries 95. Best matches Nash has ever had. ^agrees I'm not so much a fan of the KOTR match, but Survivor Series is definitely up there with shawn/sid as far as excellent big man little man matches go.
ChrisMWaters Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 What about Bret/Nash from Royal Rumble 95?
BHK Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 What about Bret/Nash from Royal Rumble 95? It's been a long long time (longer than 5 years, I believe) since I've seen that match, so I can't really say.
Guest LooneyTune Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Bret carried Nash to his greatest matches ever. He carried The Undertaker to a good match at Summerslam 97 and an awesome match at One Night Only. Bret single-handely made KOTR 93 a good PPV. He had 2 matches back to back that were good vs. Doink & Lawler at Summerslam 93. He carried Jean Pierre-Laffitte to a very good match at IYH 3. Must I continue, or have I driven the point home? Oh yeah, he also carried Issac Yankem to the best possible match you can expect at Summerslam 1995.
ChrisMWaters Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Bret carried Nash to his greatest matches ever. He carried The Undertaker to a good match at Summerslam 97 and an awesome match at One Night Only. Bret single-handely made KOTR 93 a good PPV. He had 2 matches back to back that were good vs. Doink & Lawler at Summerslam 95. He carried Jean Pierre-Laffitte to a very good match at IYH 3. Must I continue, or have I driven the point home? Small flub you made... Doink and Lawler were 93, not 95. 95 he faced the man who would become Kane, back when he was a wrestling dentist.
Guest LooneyTune Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 I already corrected that, and mentioned the Yankem match in my correction.
Precious Roy Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Plus Lesnar v. Holly and Lesnar v. Cena weren't bad at all, just average, but it's not like people had high expectations going in for either match. Lesnar/Cena was ** IMO, and it had to overcome Brock's total lack of experience at working face and being expected to sell for a long portion of the match. He performed fine, it just came off weird since he was such a monster who'd never sold an injury like that before. And Lesnar v. Holly got over the story behind the match, it was short and to the point and perfectly acceptable for what it was, which was a PPV title match that never should have happened. And anyone who calls the Bret/Nash series a disapointment should be sacked
Guest TheLastBoyscout Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Plus Lesnar v. Holly and Lesnar v. Cena weren't bad at all, just average, but it's not like people had high expectations going in for either match. Lesnar/Cena was ** IMO, and it had to overcome Brock's total lack of experience at working face and being expected to sell for a long portion of the match. He performed fine, it just came off weird since he was such a monster who'd never sold an injury like that before. And Lesnar v. Holly got over the story behind the match, it was short and to the point and perfectly acceptable for what it was, which was a PPV title match that never should have happened. And anyone who calls the Bret/Nash series a disapointment should be sacked The Cage match before Mania XII was really bad though.
Guest LooneyTune Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 1 bad match doesn't over-shadow 3 great matches.
Just call me Dan Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Bottom line concerning my comments is that Hart did not have a good match with Nash or Taker every time. He cannot be blamed for that. He can't be seen as a poor worker because he couldn't work miracles every time. Flair vs Eddie was brutal, IMO, and Flair does suck now, but Eddie does not because he couldn't carry Flair then (Flair was carryable at that point). Lesnar had a total of about 2 well known matches with Cena and Holly each. Hardly enough to warrant that A) He couldn't do better given a couple more with each and B) he sucks as a worker because he couldn't drag *** out of them. Trying to say a wrestler sucks because of his opponents when he has been wrestling in WWE for under 3 years and only about half of the roster isn't a fair judgement.
Guest Ronnie755 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Does anybody think it was a mistake for Brock to lose to Goldberg at WM XX now that he might be coming back? I'm thinking that it was since Brock was a home grown talent and Goldberg is not coming back any time soon?
Guest LooneyTune Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 I said he wasn't great because he couldn't carry sub-par wrestlers. I didn't say he sucked, he was quite good, but not great. He's not even a contender for a "great wrestlers" list. He's improved a lot since his debut, so maybe with a few more years (like I mentioned), he can get better than he is now.
Guest The Shadow Behind You Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Plus Lesnar v. Holly and Lesnar v. Cena weren't bad at all, just average, but it's not like people had high expectations going in for either match. Lesnar/Cena was ** IMO, and it had to overcome Brock's total lack of experience at working face and being expected to sell for a long portion of the match. He performed fine, it just came off weird since he was such a monster who'd never sold an injury like that before. And Lesnar v. Holly got over the story behind the match, it was short and to the point and perfectly acceptable for what it was, which was a PPV title match that never should have happened. And anyone who calls the Bret/Nash series a disapointment should be sacked The Cage match before Mania XII was really bad though. That match doesn't count. Both men were clearly phoning it in anyways. Why has a dicussion about the potential return of Brock Lesnar turned into a dicussion about Bret Hart's ability to carry Nash?
tominator89 Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Does anybody think it was a mistake for Brock to lose to Goldberg at WM XX now that he might be coming back? I'm thinking that it was since Brock was a home grown talent and Goldberg is not coming back any time soon? Hoenstly, I think that was the right decision (to have Lesnar lose). Goldberg is the type that needs to win, obviously, look at the streak angle. Lesnar is a special case because he can win over a crowd simple based on his physical presence. So, yeah, I think it's easier to rebuild Lesnar after the defeat. I don't think that will be hard at all.
Guest The Shadow Behind You Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 The loss would be easily glossed over as the idea would be that the wrestlers revolt against him(kayfabe here) where the faces can say "I know we had our differences but when you left this business, after all you've been giving, your talent and just spit in our faces? of our dreams and our passion? for what? fame in the NFL? You are a joke Lesnar. you might be a great athelete but you are nothing but scum as a person" type reaction and Lesnar would be an obvious heel who goes "I don't care about how you feel and how those fans feel about me leaving last year. I did what I wanted and thats all that matters". persona. Lesnar on Raw works best for me; I know Smackdown lacks star power but the workrate is on raw(Benoit, HHH, Shawn, Jericho, Benjamin, Dinsmore) all SD has is Eddy and...so yeah; Eddy. I want Lesnar/Benoit when Lesnar returns, Benoit is Mr. Passion and Mr. This is my life! and we know how much those two kick ass and a high profile angle where Bischoff in an attempt to keep his job shocks the world by bringing back the 3 time WWE Champion who shocked the world last year. Benoit is the leader of the Anti-Lesnar revolt that even includes the heels.
Guest QUP2CME Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 Benoit is the leader of the Anti-Lesnar revolt that even includes the heels. WWE V Lesnar just doesn't cut it for me...
Just call me Dan Posted December 13, 2004 Report Posted December 13, 2004 I said he wasn't great because he couldn't carry sub-par wrestlers. I didn't say he sucked, he was quite good, but not great. He's not even a contender for a "great wrestlers" list. He's improved a lot since his debut, so maybe with a few more years (like I mentioned), he can get better than he is now. That's totally understandable. Perhaps I misread your comments as I thought you did mean Lesnar was bad because of those opponents. Lesnar may not be the top of the line worker that a Benoit, Eddie, etc could be considered, but he was quickly approaching that as time wnet by. I can certainly say Lesnar has the capability to become one of those in the future, though. As far as the loss to Goldberg at WMXX, I think it was the right decision as Goldberg fufilled all of his contractual duties whereas Lesnar did not. Lesnar can overcome that easily because it was such a phoned in, horrific match that really meant nothing. Goldberg can someday come back and be in a top position because of the lack of a loss at the end of his last stint and fans , IMO would easily still buy Lesnar upon a return because he could have so much left in his tank. Goldberg does not.
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 14, 2004 Report Posted December 14, 2004 FYI, there's a great post ("Building Brock" by Justin Shapiro) in this thread on CRZ's board about how the WWE did a great job at building up Brock, only to screw it up towards the end.
Lil' Bitch Posted December 14, 2004 Report Posted December 14, 2004 Re: Guerrero / Flair Hog Wild was better anyway. And who has had a good match against Holly, ever? "The Road Dog" Jesse James What about Bret/Nash from Royal Rumble 95? The match went too long and had a shitty finish. I didn't like it. Oh and Lesnar should have won at WM XX damn it!
Guest Askewniverse Posted December 14, 2004 Report Posted December 14, 2004 And who has had a good match against Holly, ever? "The Road Dog" Jesse James When did that match happen?
Lil' Bitch Posted December 14, 2004 Report Posted December 14, 2004 KOTR 95. Sadly, it was the best match of the PPV.
Aero Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 Word is that Brock Lesnar recently contacted WWE regarding a return to the company. WWE, however, seems to have no interest in bringing him back, feeling that he walked out on the company when he left earlier in the year. WWE has gone as far as to apparently tell Triple H to make it clear that WWE does not want Brock Lesnar back in the mainstream interviews he does. Credit: 1wrestling.com / 411 I can understand Vince and everyone else being pissed at Brock for leaving, but how can Vince not want him back? This is a man who rehired Sable and Hulk Hogan, not to mention hired Eric Bischoff. We already went through the fresh matches we could see if he goes to Raw, but even if he doesn't, Smackdown could desperately use him. This is somewhat of a downer if it's true. Funny about HHH spreading the resentment on behalf of WWE, though.
Jobber of the Week Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 hahahahah what the fuck? Great business sense, Vince. No wonder you're doing so well.
Guest The Shadow Behind You Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 Re: Guerrero / Flair Hog Wild was better anyway. And who has had a good match against Holly, ever? "The Road Dog" Jesse James What about Bret/Nash from Royal Rumble 95? The match went too long and had a shitty finish. I didn't like it. Oh and Lesnar should have won at WM XX damn it! It was 28 minutes and a very good 28 minutes at that. 28 Minutes is hardly long. Saying Holly/Jammes was good isn't saying much considering it hit **1/2 and that's likely because it looked good in a field of shit. It was the lone match or event that didn't piss off the fans or go against conventional logic.
Guest Ransome Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 I see no harm in Brock coming back. As it stands now, that entire 2002-03 megapush they gave to Brock is completely wasted. If he came back, at least they can capitalise on all those months they spent on him when they under the assumption he'd be headlining pay per views for years to come. As stubborn as we think Vince McMahon is, he's proven that he'll overlook even his longest-held grudges and rehire a wrestler if he figures theres still money to be made. Hiring Bischoff in 2002 is the obvious example of this. He *must* realise that Brock already has the credibility and superstar status held over from 2002 that most of the talentless lugs they've got at the moment would dream of. He's a valuable asset; sure, they could survive without Brock, but why nullify two years of storylines built around him when they can still use it to their advantage?
Enigma Posted December 18, 2004 Author Report Posted December 18, 2004 You can hate Brock Lesnar for leaving all you want (at least he did it honorably, doing the job to Goldberg at Mania on the way out instead of no-showing), but you have to admit one thing: Smackdown absolutely fell apart when he left and it really would help stabilize things if he came back.
humongous2002 Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 SD is falling apart because Vince decided to give this unbelievable push to a Velocity for life wrestler named JBL, bringing the overrated vanilla gorilla back won't be the answer to SD's prayers but if they do bring him back then use him to get guys like RVD or Eddie over.
Guest LooneyTune Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 How can Vince trust Brock? At least people like Hogan for example left because Vince wanted them to leave. Brock, on very short notice (the SD taping before WM), wanted to leave for the NFL, thus fucking over about 4 months of booking plans, and having NO credible main event heels on Smackdown.
Hunter's Torn Quad Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 If Brock's leaving left SD with no main event heels, that's not entirely his fault. It's also the fault of the people booking, that there was nobody credible ready to take his place. Had there been a bevy of people ready and able to step into that spot, who the fans would have accepted, then SD wouldn't be in the state it is. Also, Brock first told Vince he wanted out on the second to last SD taping before WM XX.
Guest LooneyTune Posted December 18, 2004 Report Posted December 18, 2004 I'm 100% sure it was the taping the week of Wrestlemania since I recall the news only being out a few days, and being shocked with MSG's crowd reacton to him. I'm willing to bet my bank account on that... actually, not really, cause I closed my account. I just remembered, WWE did have main event heels, but they were the Big Show and Kurt Angle. Show needed to leave in a few weeks for some kind of surgery (I'm blanking) and Angle was injured too, and din't wrestle again (on TV) until he fought Charlie Haas a week or two before Summerslam.
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