Let's settle this, once and for all.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

(Damaramu @ Jan 16 2005, 02:50 PM)

I knew our defense would lockdown in this game.

I told my friend who's a huge Vikings fan that our defense would take us all the way.

However.........Culpepper is playing kind of shitty. 

 

 

What position do you play on the Eagles?

 

This poll started right after this exchange. It sounded like he was right there making tackles from wherever he was in Oklahoma.

[Damaramu 0]

(Damaramu @ Jan 16 2005, 02:50 PM)

I knew our defense would lockdown in this game.

I told my friend who's a huge Vikings fan that our defense would take us all the way.

However.........Culpepper is playing kind of shitty. 

 

 

What position do you play on the Eagles?

 

This poll started right after this exchange. It sounded like he was right there making tackles from wherever he was in Oklahoma.

You didn't catch me sacking Culpepper? You should pay more attention to the game man.

 

And it's still not that big of a problem. I just picked it up living here. Around the area I live in(see: the entire state of Oklahoma except Stillwater) everyone is an OU fan. So everyone just says "We" and "Us" when referring to OU. As a matter of fact I don't think I've heard anyone in this state that's an OU fan not say "We" or "Us" so basically I just kind of picked it up from the people around me and used it for my favorite teams. Like I said though I only use it for my favorites. I won't say it about the Chiefs or Rockets or any other team that I'm more of like "Yeah I like them" as opposed to "GO ALL THE WAY EVERY YEAR!!!" And if you have a problem with it then that's really a personal problem b/c I'm not going to stop saying it.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

That's confusing. You say you will say we when you're talking about OU and yet you're acting like an Eagles defender who sacked Culpepper?

[Damaramu 0]

That's confusing. You say you will say we when you're talking about OU and yet you're acting like an Eagles defender who sacked Culpepper?

No I will use it for my favorite team in each sports. So OU, Eagles, Celtics, and Red Sox.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Then again, I've grown up exposed to years and years of

 

"what's the score of the Bears game?"

"we're winning by three"

 

I highly doubt you've heard anything similar to that too often in many years. Unless you're talking to someone who's living in another universe.

[Fuzzy Dunlop 0]

I say "we" when we're winning and "they" when they're losing.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Then again, I've grown up exposed to years and years of

 

"what's the score of the Bears game?"

"we're winning by three"

 

I highly doubt you've heard anything similar to that too often in many years. Unless you're talking to someone who's living in another universe.

BAH-ZING!

[nl5xsk1 0]

And it's still not that big of a problem. I just picked it up living here. Around the area I live in(see: the entire state of Oklahoma except Stillwater) everyone is an OU fan. So everyone just says "We" and "Us" when referring to OU. As a matter of fact I don't think I've heard anyone in this state that's an OU fan not say "We" or "Us" so basically I just kind of picked it up from the people around me and used it for my favorite teams.

I'm walking a fine line with this, so really no disrepect meant, Dama ... but I do think it might mean something different in a place with only one team to follow. If Oklahoma had pro teams, it'd be tough to discern with which 'we' you were referring to ... but with no pro teams, and only one really dominant college team, it's kind of obvious. I'm guessing things are the same in Nebraska.

 

But, here in Boston, right now 'we' could mean: Pats, Celtics, BU hockey, BC hockey, BC men's football, and on and on and on. It's a little more vague.

[Damaramu 0]

Well it's not like we start a conversation with "Did you see how we did last night?"

We start off so that people know what we're talking about.

Like if I were talking about the Eagles I'd just say "Did you see that Eagles game last night? We really took it to Green Bay." as opposed to just saying "Did you see what we did last night?"

[C Dubya 04 0]

I don't really care either way. Sometimes I'll say we, and I feel that I'm entitled to it.

 

The only thing that really bothers me is how hip it is for people to berate someone who says we. Get over yourselves. Some people care enough to consider themselves part of the effort. You don't. Move on. It's so annoying when someone is trying to discuss a game, says we and then the other person instead of starting an intelligent conversation comes back with "well, what did you do today for the team" or some other non-witty reply.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

It's not a HUGE deal but I think it makes you sound like a dumbass and a wannabe.

 

The only time it's remotely acceptable to say we is when you're talking about the school you attend.

 

It's not a HUGE deal

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Well it's not like we start a conversation with "Did you see how we did last night?"

We start off so that people know what we're talking about.

Like if I were talking about the Eagles I'd just say "Did you see that Eagles game last night? We really took it to Green Bay." as opposed to just saying "Did you see what we did last night?"

I'm not speaking as a mod here, just as a poster. Shut the hell up with the Eagles. If you've lived and died with Philadelphia sports, maybe that gives you the right to say "we." If you've endured years with Tyler Green on the mound, an 18 win Sixers season, and countless losses in various conference finals, then maybe you can say "we" in regards to a Philly team. But coming from a fair-weather fan in Oklahoma, its intolerable.

[Damaramu 0]

Well it's not like we start a conversation with "Did you see how we did last night?"

We start off so that people know what we're talking about.

Like if I were talking about the Eagles I'd just say "Did you see that Eagles game last night? We really took it to Green Bay." as opposed to just saying "Did you see what we did last night?"

I'm not speaking as a mod here, just as a poster. Shut the hell up with the Eagles. If you've lived and died with Philadelphia sports, maybe that gives you the right to say "we." If you've endured years with Tyler Green on the mound, an 18 win Sixers season, and countless losses in various conference finals, then maybe you can say "we" in regards to a Philly team. But coming from a fair-weather fan in Oklahoma, its intolerable.

I'm not a fair weather fan at all.

I just mentioned I liked them in the early 90's more fairweather but then I quit watching football for a while and when I came back the only team I could see or think of was Philly. If Philly loses in the title game again this year I will back them. If they go 2-14 next season I will back them. They are my team and nothing is going to change that.

So I will not shut the hell up. That is my favorite team and will be from now on.

I'm sorry I don't have the luxury of living in Philly....hell that's not a luxury. I'd rather be where I'm at right now. But I still like the Eagles and that won't be changed no matter how much you guys try to make me stop. I'm Eagles now and Eagles from now on.

And I could care less about Philly basketball and baseball. I like The Celtics and Red Sox.

Sorry but I see teams. Not cities. If I lived in Dallas I would still hate the Cowboys and love the Eagles.

If I lived in Philly I would still wear Celtics shirts and Red Sox hats.

And there's really not a damn thing you can do about it to be honest. And if you persist on telling me that I'm a fairweather fan you're just going to be more and more wrong.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

To be honest, I don't care who you cheer for. But don't insult my intelligence and everyone else's by referring to "we" when talking about the Eagles. We live and die by our sport teams in this city. You don't.

[HarleyQuinn 0]

Do you understand what being a fan is Dama? It's not about wearing the team clothes. You live and die with them because they're YOUR team. It's being a Red Sox fan and having to listen to your grandparents talk about their exploits in the 1910's and 1920's. It's about hearing your relatives recounting their passion for them, citing times when they listened to Ted Williams and Bobby Doerr hitting in the 1940's and the 1947 pennant race. The experiences of your parents watching the 1986 World Series and the heartache that followed. You don't get that experience, that sense of devotion and love and passion sitting in Oklahoma. You get it in Boston. You get it sitting at Fenway, cheering with those fans and bleeding your damn heart out for their success and their failures. You get it by scrutinizing that team and knowing what makes them tick and knowing that no matter what, you'll be there. You'll be sleeping on Yawkey Way in hopes of snaring opening day tickets. You'll give your very soul to see them win that championship. Being a rabid fan of a team ain't about cheering and going "oh well". Ya cry when you see them lose in the playoffs, your heart gets broken but you continue on because you're a fan. You can't understand what it's like to be a Sox fan. You may like the Sox, but you aren't a fan.

[The Czech Republic 0]

I'm sorry I don't have the luxury of living in Philly....hell that's not a luxury.

Them's fightin' words.

[Damaramu 0]

HarleyQuinn that's about the dumbest thing I've ever read.

So because I don't live in Philly and don't have relatives that like the team I'm not a fan? That's bullshit plain and simple.

I'm a fan b/c that's the team I cheer for. It's the team I pick to win above all else. It's the team I want to see win the championship every year. It's the team I go out of my way to watch. It's the team that I always root to do the best and get the best players. It's the team that I stick by when they are down. That's what a fan is. Being a fan has nothing to do with geographic location like you guys want to break it down.

Don't insult me with that bullshit HarleyQuinn.

[Vern Gagne 0]

The best thing to do is drop it, before you say anything you'll regret.

[C Dubya 04 0]

I'm sorry I don't have the luxury of living in Philly....hell that's not a luxury.

Them's fightin' words.

Agreed. Don't like our team and then take pot shots at our city. Philly is the best city I've ever been to, and I've been to most of them.

[Lightning Flik 0]

Sure, I don't live in Atlanta, but I like the Atlanta Falcons since I started watching the NFL more. Like Dama, I root for them to win it every year. I was disappointed last year when they lost Vick, but I still rooted for them to win. Hell, I picked the Falcons for my kkk pick'em team, because I like them that much.

 

It doesn't make any sense at all that because I wasn't into football as much as I'm beginning to get into it now, that I can't refer to the Falcons team as "we" simply because I don't live in the city and have all the NFL mythos of the team knowledge, this makes me "not a fan" to you people?

 

As Dama had said, its utter bullshit that we aren't considered a "fans" because we haven't been there most or any part of our lives. As long as we (and this we is the people who root for teams) have the passion to root for the team and we go out of the way of our team, we are fans. Simply because we don't have luxury of growing up in the city that the team is in, doesn't mean we can't be fans.

 

We are fans because we go out of our way to make them apart of our lives, we go out of our way to get as many of their games as we can, we buy the merchandise, we support the team... How the hell does that not make us fans?

 

You guys saying we aren't fans is like saying that people from North America who enjoy anime and manga can't be fans of them because they aren't from Japan. Its like saying that you can't be a fan of TV show simply because you didn't watch it when it originally aired and jumped in half way through, but decided to get into the series and devote yourself to it. Its like saying that you can't be a fan of a series of books, simply because you bought a book in the middle of it and decided that it was the one for you.

 

If the above is by your definition that of a fan, which is what you are doing when you tell Dama and I (and fans like us) that we aren't fans, then I pity your shallowness. Which is what it is when you believe that definition of fandom.

 

Hell, if we go by that train of thought, then almost everyone here who doesn't live in the associated places with the team are fans that aren't "fans", because they are just cheering for a team that they are only interested in because they do not have one of their own town/city.

 

And before anyone pipes up with "but Flik, you live in a country (I live in Canada, for those who don't know) without a NFL team, so its alright for you to be a fan of a team" then you are justifying Dama's position as well. Consider that.

[The Czech Republic 0]

It doesn't make any sense at all that because I wasn't into football as much as I'm beginning to get into it now, that I can't refer to the Falcons team as "we" simply because I don't live in the city and have all the NFL mythos of the team knowledge, this makes me "not a fan" to you people?

 

You guys saying we aren't fans is like saying that people from North America who enjoy anime and manga can't be fans of them because they aren't from Japan.

1. You're still a fan, just not to the degree of someone from Atlanta who has all the NFL mythos of the team knowledge.

 

2. We don't say you can't enjoy anime and manga because you're not from Japan. We say you can't enjoy anime and manga because it's fucking stupid.

[Lightning Flik 0]

1. You're still a fan, just not to the degree of someone from Atlanta who has all the NFL mythos of the team knowledge.

 

2. We don't say you can't enjoy anime and manga because you're not from Japan. We say you can't enjoy anime and manga because it's fucking stupid.

BTW, I don't care if you don't like anime and manga. I take exception though to having to deal with ideology that makes no sense and is downright insulting, like this discussion on fandom. I had no problem with this convo between everyone and Dama until you people brought up the fact that fans like Dama and I apparently have "no right" to be a fan of the team because of where we live. I'm sorry we don't get the "privalege" of living the city of the team, so we live up to that silly concept of being near the team, so we then "earn" the right to cheer for them.

 

That viewpoint is shallow, narrowminded, and ignorant of what the term fandom actually means and is. The term fandom is about your passion for a certain thing, not because of where it is, who it is from, etc. And its exactly what you are declaring is your viewpoint by telling me that I'm a "lesser" of a fan because of the above.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Oh, fucking A. I said you can be a fan of any team you want, but people who are in close proximity to the team and its media coverage, venue, and high concentration of fellow fans are probably a different kind of fan. Some guy from, say, Idaho, who just started liking the Cubs in 2003, isn't going to be the same level of Cubs fan as one who suffered through the bad years, had to watch the losses on WGN, read about the crap in the Chicago Tribune, and got heckled by the White Sox fans down the street. Pick any team you'd like, I do, but there still is a certain something that an out-of-towner can't replicate. Shit, am I the only person here who can say that I like the Ottawa Senators a lot, but still admit that I can't consider myself part of the crowd because I'm not from Ottawa, or even Ontario, or even Canada?

[Lightning Flik 0]

Oh, fucking A. I said you can be a fan of any team you want, but people who are in close proximity to the team and its media coverage, venue, and high concentration of fellow fans are probably a different kind of fan. Some guy from, say, Idaho, who just started liking the Cubs in 2003, isn't going to be the same level of Cubs fan as one who suffered through the bad years, had to watch the losses on WGN, read about the crap in the Chicago Tribune, and got heckled by the White Sox fans down the street. Pick any team you'd like, I do, but there still is a certain something that an out-of-towner can't replicate. Shit, am I the only person here who can say that I like the Ottawa Senators a lot, but still admit that I can't consider myself part of the crowd because I'm not from Ottawa, or even Ontario, or even Canada?

There is no difference in fandom depending on where you live. Its only dependant on how much fandom you have in what it is you are a fan. That's what I dispute, that's what I find insulting in the misuse of the term, and that's what I'm trying to bash into people's head is not the terminology of fandom.

 

And no, just because that Cubs fan that became one in 2003 is less of one because he hasn't experienced the same level of suffering. At some point along the way, the new fan will learn the pains of having to watch his team suffer, get heckled by opposing teams. It comes with time and they will experience it sooner or later.

 

Again the out of towner aspect is moot in terms of fandom. The fandom itself is only in question by the person's own inaction or action towards being a fan of the thing in question. Just because of an out of towner doesn't have all the resources or stimuli that is brought to him like being right there with the team, doesn't mean they aren't as big of a fan as someone in Atlanta. It might even show more of a dedication to the team than a "real" fan, because we go out of our way to having to find a way to listen into these games, get information on our team, and partcipate as any other fan would.

Edited January 19, 2005 by Lightning Flik

[C Dubya 04 0]

Lightening, I agree that you can live somewhere else and be a true fan of a team, but there is definitely a difference. There is nothing else to talk about to anyone in the Philadelphia area right now besides the Eagles. Even casual fans are into it, and are focused only on Sunday (which is a little annoying and a different story altogether). That is what you miss out on when you are a fan of a team that lives somewhere else, and what makes the levels of fandom slightly different. You don't get things like the Daily News running front covers of said team every day (when the Sixers made their run to the championship a few years ago, they were on the cover for 32 straight days).

 

There is nothing wrong with liking a team when you don't live in that city (especially if you live someplace that has no team), but there are differences.

[The Czech Republic 0]

THANK YOU

[Lightning Flik 0]

Lightening, I agree that you can live somewhere else and be a true fan of a team, but there is definitely a difference.  There is nothing else to talk about to anyone in the Philadelphia area right now besides the Eagles.  Even casual fans are into it, and are focused only on Sunday (which is a little annoying and a different story altogether).  That is what you miss out on when you are a fan of a team that lives somewhere else, and what makes the levels of fandom slightly different.  You don't get things like the Daily News running front covers of said team every day (when the Sixers made their run to the championship a few years ago, they were on the cover for 32 straight days). 

 

There is nothing wrong with liking a team when you don't live in that city (especially if you live someplace that has no team), but there are differences.

I'm sorry, I don't buy that at all. I don't buy that there's a "difference" simply because you live in a certain place or that. As I said before, if you take that viewpoint, you take the same viewpoint as said before in my examples. And if you only take this viewpoint on fandom solely just for sports, then you are just using it to have the mentality of a little two year old kid who can't give up his favorite toy. Yes, that's quite insulting, but really, you can't half ass something just to suit your needs. Which is what is being done with the term of fan, if you only apply that way of thought with sports.

 

The person themselves determines the fandom. Certain things can help increase that fandom: like being in the city, growing up with the team, etc.; but it is still their own fandom that determines how much of a fan they are. I mean, why do they call fandoms like "Red Sox Nation" and speak of the multitude of fans around the globe on a fair and equal scale, when by your definition of fandom most of these are "less" or "inferior" fans. And I used the Red Sox Nation, because in their own winning speech, they addressed Red Sox fans around the globe. So don't think I'm trying to rag on the Sox or that.

[C Dubya 04 0]

I don't think that you totally followed my argument. I didn't ever say anyone was "less of a fan" or "inferior". I said that it is different. And I stand by that. You don't get all of the coverage, or the emotional tie in to the other fans when you don't live in that city. Last year, after another devasting loss for the Eagles, I took a walk and was amazed by the rest of the city. Everyone was affected by it. Living somewhere else, you probably hurt just as much, but it is not in such a large dynamic. This is a difference. It doesn't make you less of a fan, but it does make your situation different.

 

As for your other arguments, I don't follow Japanese animation, and honestly I have no idea what Manga is (I wouldn't even be able to wager a guess), but I have a feeling that someone living in Japan would have a different appreciation for these things than someone living in the US. A person living in the US could and should still be considered a fan of the entertainment, but would not get all of the cultural references that someone who lives in Japan and is familar with the culture would. The person in the US is not "less" of a fan, but there will be differences there.

[Lightning Flik 0]

I don't think that you totally followed my argument.  I didn't ever say anyone was "less of a fan" or "inferior".  I said that it is different.  And I stand by that.  You don't get all of the coverage, or the emotional tie in to the other fans when you don't live in that city.  Last year, after another devasting loss for the Eagles, I took a walk and was amazed by the rest of the city.  Everyone was affected by it.  Living somewhere else, you probably hurt just as much, but it is not in such a large dynamic.  This is a difference.  It doesn't make you less of a fan, but it does make your situation different.

 

As for your other arguments, I don't follow Japanese animation, and honestly I have no idea what Manga is (I wouldn't even be able to wager a guess), but I have a feeling that someone living in Japan would have a different appreciation for these things than someone living in the US.  A person living in the US could and should still be considered a fan of the entertainment, but would not get all of the cultural references that someone who lives in Japan and is familar with the culture would.  The person in the US is not "less" of a fan, but there will be differences there.

Actually my problem with your argument, is that you are saying we don't feel the same thing for fandom. I'm sorry, but your wrong there. There's is a difference, but you've got the misconception that it is fandom, when it is not. Its not the city's fandom that gives it the little extra, but something else.

 

Why do I say this? Because the city itself is attatched its name to the team and therefore it is the pride of the city that is attatched to it that lets the whole city feel the let down of the team, and not just the fans of the team. By attatching the city's name to the team, you give it a sense of it being your own and therefore it is a symbol of the city. Therefore the extra little bit the city feels when the letdown of losing such a game, is not infact an extra bit of fandom (as it is dependent on the person), but your pride is in fact sullied by the disappoint that soemthing that is presented as "you" didn't succeed.

 

Yes, there is a difference between the two. Fandom the team revolves around the passion you have for the team. Pride for the team revolves around the fact that it is in sense a symbol of what your city represents. And if pride is what you were meaning by "I don't have that little extra" then I can agree with you. I can not get the same sense of pride as you would. Nor should any of us freelance fans, as we wouldn't be able to experience that pride resonating first hand. But pride and fandom are seperate entities and this is why I will never agree with there being a difference between Dama being a fan of the Eagles, Sox, or Celtics; or me being a fan of the Jays, Raptors, Falcons; to someone who actually lives there.

 

As for the examples I used to illustrate the viewpoint that you re-brought up, they were examples of what I mean. Yes, for manga and anime, I won't get all the little subtle culturistic knowledge, but I can still be just as rabid a fan for it. It just means I won't have that culturistic knowledge unless I've experienced it myself.

 

Culture, pride, etc. are not fandom but are apart of the surroundings that have been given to what you are a fan of. These however, do not make anyone less or more of a fan. They only influence the perception of what is being presented for your fandom.

[the pinjockey 0]

How can having pride in the team and being a fan of the team not be related? If you have pride in the team in the idea that they represent you, obviously it is going to affect how big of a fan you are of the team.