Complaints here

[Secret Agent 0]

We're reluctant, of course, to say that "exactly this many words over the limit is the autojob limit" because that doesn't accomplish anything - it just creates a different word limit.

 

I can't speak for Mike, but I for one (and I'm following precedent here - at least Zed is on record the same way) am reluctant to autojob someone. Let's take a look at Sacred vs. Landon for the belt as an example, since Landon seems to really hold a grudge about it.

 

By my word count, which I did after Landon brought it to my attention, Sacred was +/- 150 words over, or 2.5% over the limit. Landon was 79 words over, if I recall correctly - he certainly was over the limit as well, even if it was only ~1.3% over as compared to Sacred's 2.5%. Neither word limit violation was egregious, especially in light of the other. Now, had Sacred written a 6150-word match against a Landon 6000-word match, and Sacred's match had been only slightly better, or the matches were equal, that would give cause to consider the word limit in the decision. (Of course, if Landon's match was the better match, then the word limit doesn't come into play at all in this situation.) However, as it stands, Sacred had written a clearly better match, and had Landon written the same match but shaved it down to 6000 without losing any content, I still would have been more comfortable giving it to Sacred.

 

I didn't mark the Clusterfuck final, but I dare say - especially considering that the word limit paragraph included a certain amount of latitude for exceptionally good matches as a built-in pressure release valve for just this discussion - that Mike had more or less the same thought process going on.

 

As to why I don't autojob people for writing 6001 words, well, if this were something other than an e-fed, I might. As it stands, though, I have the luxury of considering each match on a case-by-case basis, although I do my best to keep my standards consistent. In a case like Sacred-Landon, concerns like the ones spelled out above come into play. Even in easier cases - think of, say, a 3000-word match where one guy sent in a haiku or a 700-word match, and the other guy wrote 3500 words - you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, when it comes to the fed's reaction. I just do what I can to be transparent about my decisions so that everyone can understand what my standards are, and frankly, I'm inclined to give the duke to the guy who wrote the better match. That requires considering what sort of advantage came from the overrun, whether his opponent could have augmented his match to the same quality with the same overrun, and so forth.

 

This discussion is immediately relevant to Clusterfuck comments. Further discussion on this topic will not be. To avoid hijacking this thread - which is something we all really need to work on - I'd appreciate it if anyone who wants to continue the discussion on word limits and autojobbing started a thread in the Community forum and continued it there, preferably with a copypaste of this post. Consider this fair warning that hijack posts of this or any other kind will be deleted from this thread or edited to highlight your love for the cock. I'm not trying to be a hardass here, but the Clusterfuck comments thread is for Clusterfuck comments.

 

EDIT - avoiding confusion by making sure everyone knows this is in fact my post

Edited February 1, 2005 by Ace309

[Secret Agent 0]

Alright, Flesher, I made a new thread for it.

 

I didn't need 700 words to save my match as you put it. I could have rounded it out better with an extra 700 words as I clearly stated.

 

The point here is simple. Why try to make things ok by having exceptions. Word limits are set as the limit for a reason. If we can go over than why even have them?

[Dace59 0]

Because it was a LOOSE limit and it was stated that you could go over the limit, just that you're match had better be damn good and not just waffle and crap like a Rando Iorn Man Match.

 

10 words over in 6K doesn't mean and and as I say as well, 1K over in 15K isn't that much either.

 

There word limit was there to try and give people hope as far as I remember being told. To say, ok guys, there's a rough upper limit, so you DONT have to worry about some swamping your match with a 26K monster, because we'll look on it badily unless it's the best 'Fuck ever.

[Ace309 0]

By 'save' your match, I meant 'bring it up to the quality of Landon's,' which should have been obvious in context.

 

Keeping in mind as well that, as I noted, your general complaint on the word limit isn't entirely relevant because of the safety valve for exceptional matches in the Clusterfuck post itself, I agree with you that under certain circumstances a word limit being an absolute bar is a good thing. Those circumstances would include many things - professional contexts like magazines jump out at me immediately, as space is at a premium - but this isn't one of them for several reasons, not the least of which is that no one's going to live or die, make or lose money or suffer any real consequences as a result of anything that happens in the fed.

 

The purpose of the fed is to have fun, something I think a lot of people are ignoring at this point, through a process of friendly competition or cooperation (as in angles) conducted by writing competitive or joint matches.

 

That said, do you have a specific problem with the sliding-scale approach I described, which I use because it rewards an overrunner only if his opponent's match was clearly not the better match and could not have been even with the same overrun, or is it just a matter of "a limit is a limit" dogma?

[Secret Agent 0]

I guess I'd just like a clarification more or less. I was under the assumption since the inception of word limits that it was strict, but now it seems thats not the case, anymore.

 

If we can go over if its a damn good match then fine, I'd just like to know that ahead of time.

[Ace309 0]

Is the discussion above unclear?

[Toxxic 0]

How about this formula? You have a 5% leeway on any word limit (so ABSOLUTE max for a 6k match is 6300), but the only way a match in the 'leeway' zone can beat a match at or below the word limit is if it is MUCH better. Anything ABOVE the 'leeway' zone is autojobbed.

 

This means that if you really, REALLY can't make your match conform to the word limit you have a target you can aim for that will at least make sure it is considered and will beat 6k of closed-fist punches.

 

Edit to add: This would have made the 'Fuck upper limit 15750, so Landon's (I think) would have just crept in.

[Secret Agent 0]

Acceptable, I think. Toxxic. It's just the markers are suddenly coming up with this overflow thing after the fact. If we can do it it should be made known ahead of time. This is the first time I have ever noticed a over-the-limit match getting the win, so maybe I just missed a past discussion on it.

[Ace309 0]

Because I don't think there's anything wrong with the system as it stands. To codify yet another mechanical rule into the decision ties the marker's hands to another degree, and putting both pissing and moaning aside, overruns aren't a rampant problem in the fed. Besides, if fed experience is any guide, adding the overrun limit will ensure that practically everyone who writes to the limit writes to the overrun limit, and then we're back in the same situation.

 

I'm in the business of giving the win to the better match. The system is self-regulating already - why bother adding another piece of paperwork that will add to more bitching?

[Ace309 0]

We have a word limit that lends itself to exceptions in certain special cases. The cases in which I, personally, make exceptions are outlined above.

 

This special-case exception does not, as I see the wheels in your mind turning, apply to most matches (EDIT for clarification - this means that in practice, the situation doesn't come up in most matches, becausemost writers don't try to screw around and hit the absolute boundary of the rules, not that "the exception is only 'allowed' in certain matches"). There's a great degree of encouragement to write to the word limit because with the level of talent we have, there's a very good chance that a given writer who goes over the limit will be outwritten by a given opponent who writes under or to the limit.

 

The exception is just that. An exception.

 

It's also important to highlight, yet again, that the Clusterfuck was a special case and that was made clear in the discussion of the word limit, which specifically provided latitude for overruns. In any case, you didn't hit 15,000, so why start complaining about wanting extra words?

Edited February 1, 2005 by Ace309

[Secret Agent 0]

Actually I more than hit 15k. I have about 6k laying on the cutting room floor from this match.

[Golgo 13 0]

Since I've been in the fed I've always assumed that there was a safe zone above the limit, and I'm sure many others believe the same. The leeway varies from marker to marker, but it's generally there and has been stated as such many times, albeit not officially.

 

I honestly don't know where you got the notion that word limits are so strict you can't go over, and regarding CF, especially when it was explicitly stated on the card that you can, within obvious reason. No one ever said you're auto-jobbed if you go over, only if you take it too far. I don't feel this overflow thing was ever added after the fact.

 

Anyway, just use discretion. There's no need for any of that 5% stuff, no offense to Toxxic. Really, if you say to yourself "This may be too much," then it probably is. That's it. If it isn't broke, etc., etc.

 

Basically, everything Tom said, since he puts it better than I can.

[Ace309 0]

Actually I more than hit 15k. I have about 6k laying on the cutting room floor from this match.

You understand, I hope, that complaints about wanting extra words aren't persuasive when you were able to cut 200+ words off under the limit regardless. If the extra words were absolutely crucial, and if you were convinced that the word limit was absolutely set in stone, that leads to a final figure of 14,950 or so, and not to 14.8k.

 

Not that any of this is directly relevant; I'm just explaining why I find you of all people to be the odd one to make this complaint.

[The Amazing Rando 0]

not just waffle and crap like a Rando Iorn Man Match.

 

 

I apologize. Yeesh. I might just have to have some last match with Landon so that thing isn't remembered as the end all be all of the story.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

So... I take it that this is what you were referring to in your e-mail?

[Secret Agent 0]

Mostly.

[Mr. S£im Citrus 0]

....

 

 

Yeah, let's just say that I stand by what I wrote in my e-mail, and move on...

[Dace59 0]

Sorry Rando, first idea I could remember. Least you said sorry, now just give me back the hours of my life it took to read and comment on it

[Edwin MacPhisto 0]

omg covert operationz

 

Fun story: the most interestingly bizarre thing I ever saw happen with word limits was in my first ever world title shot, which happened in something ridiculous like my 5th or 6th SWF match...er, IGN match, since we were still on those boards. Stubby was the world champ and wrote a match that was something like 6200 words, I think, and I was just under the 6000 word limit with 5999. Stubby's match was clearly better, but the guy marking the match (Rane, the original shape-changing babyface) didn't think it was fair to give him the win when he broke the rules, so he *rewrote the end of Stubby's match* and made it a DQ finish instead of a pin, ensuring that I would get another shot in some big multi-person match the next week.

[King Cucaracha 0]

omg covert operationz

 

Fun story: the most interestingly bizarre thing I ever saw happen with word limits was in my first ever world title shot, which happened in something ridiculous like my 5th or 6th SWF match...er, IGN match, since we were still on those boards.  Stubby was the world champ and wrote a match that was something like 6200 words, I think, and I was just under the 6000 word limit with 5999.  Stubby's match was clearly better, but the guy marking the match (Rane, the original shape-changing babyface) didn't think it was fair to give him the win when he broke the rules, so he *rewrote the end of Stubby's match* and made it a DQ finish instead of a pin, ensuring that I would get another shot in some big multi-person match the next week.

That'll never happen again.

 

Our markers are too lazy/drunk to even give feedback, let alone re-write matches.

 

HI-YO~!

 

I'll be taking those belts, thank you. There'll be a bill on your desk in the morning. - TMF

Edited February 3, 2005 by Ace309

[Longdogger_Pete 0]

I remember that. That was Stubby's lottery match, wasn't it?

[Ace309 0]

Dude, I should start rewriting finishes just to augment my minimal power.