Justice 0 Report post Posted February 14, 2005 Yes, I did a search all the way back to 3 months ago to make sure I'm not reposting something that was like 3 days ago or something. But anyways, I just read it on reccommendation of my brother, and... well... Wow. I guess there isn't a better way to put it. There's just so much stuff to look for and look at in that book (My brother had the compellation graphic novel) and I wasn't prepared for how damn brutal it really was. But I'll put it to the pros, because I might have missed something in there on my first read-through: What are your opinions of it, and what was perhaps the most interesting (or if you don't like it, worst) part about the entire thing? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zorin Industries 0 Report post Posted February 14, 2005 I'm just in the middle of finishinh it for a third time, just a fantastic piece of werk. One of my favourite things I discovered this time is that you can identify Rorsarchs secret identity early on if you look close enough Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted February 14, 2005 The most interesting part of Watchmen, in my opinion, was the ending. I honestly thought that when the Doc mentioned that he saw himself killing someone in the Antarctic that it would be Ozymandias/Adrian Veidt. Imagine my surprise when Veidt was victorious and Rorschach was the one the Doc killed. And the last panels really make you wonder what will happen next. Will Veidt's plan be uncovered and the peace between the two Super-Powers be dissolved? Or will Rorschach's diary be burned and never seen? And then there's the possibility of something entirely different happening. It's definitely one of the greatest comic series ever (if not the greatest). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nighthawk 0 Report post Posted February 14, 2005 I would have found the last panels pretty stupid had the overall quality (and attention to detail) not been so high. As is, I think enough of Alan Moore to see that as an intentional nod/send up of the comic bookness he was twisting around throughout. Consistency is what I admire the most about his writing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted February 16, 2005 Yeah, yeah the Watchmen were awesome...best comic ever...yadda yadda yadda... Anyways: Everybody, by now, knows the story of how the Watchmen were based on the old Charleton Comics characters after DC got the rights to them. Obviosuly, Dr. Manhattan was supposed to be Capt. Atom, Night Owl was Blue Beetle, Rosarch was the Question, and Comedian was Peacemaker (I think)... Who did I miss? What other Charleton characters were based on who exactly? I've been wondering this for a while now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted February 16, 2005 Yeah, yeah the Watchmen were awesome...best comic ever...yadda yadda yadda... Anyways: Everybody, by now, knows the story of how the Watchmen were based on the old Charleton Comics characters after DC got the rights to them. Obviosuly, Dr. Manhattan was supposed to be Capt. Atom, Night Owl was Blue Beetle, Rosarch was the Question, and Comedian was Peacemaker (I think)... Who did I miss? What other Charleton characters were based on who exactly? I've been wondering this for a while now. Ozymandias was based on Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt. The Silk Spectre was only loosely based on Nightshade, though. Moore found the original Nightshade to be "boring," so he used elements from other female characters like the Black Canary for the Silk Spectre. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2005 Yeah, yeah the Watchmen were awesome...best comic ever...yadda yadda yadda... Anyways: Everybody, by now, knows the story of how the Watchmen were based on the old Charleton Comics characters after DC got the rights to them. Obviosuly, Dr. Manhattan was supposed to be Capt. Atom, Night Owl was Blue Beetle, Rosarch was the Question, and Comedian was Peacemaker (I think)... Who did I miss? What other Charleton characters were based on who exactly? I've been wondering this for a while now. Ozymandias was based on Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt. The Silk Spectre was only loosely based on Nightshade, though. Moore found the original Nightshade to be "boring," so he used elements from other female characters like the Black Canary for the Silk Spectre. I was wondering about Nightshade. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest JMA Report post Posted February 17, 2005 Yeah, yeah the Watchmen were awesome...best comic ever...yadda yadda yadda... Anyways: Everybody, by now, knows the story of how the Watchmen were based on the old Charleton Comics characters after DC got the rights to them. Obviosuly, Dr. Manhattan was supposed to be Capt. Atom, Night Owl was Blue Beetle, Rosarch was the Question, and Comedian was Peacemaker (I think)... Who did I miss? What other Charleton characters were based on who exactly? I've been wondering this for a while now. Ozymandias was based on Peter Cannon, Thunderbolt. The Silk Spectre was only loosely based on Nightshade, though. Moore found the original Nightshade to be "boring," so he used elements from other female characters like the Black Canary for the Silk Spectre. I was wondering about Nightshade. Thanks. No problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2005 You know, I bought a lot of Miracleman, and downloaded a couple issues to fill it out (call me a dick if you must but $70 for ish 15 is out of my current price range). It may be better than Watchmen. Which is in no way meant to denigrate Watchmen, it's basically the 2 of them fighting it out. Alan Moore wrote them both, of course. Miracleman is fucking visceral like no other. Just saying. Buy some Miracleman. The originals are not too expensive if you shop s-martly on eBay. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nighthawk 0 Report post Posted February 17, 2005 You know, I never liked Watchmen the best out of Alan Moore's stuff. I like his more light hearted stuff best actually, but of his serious work it's probably V For Vendetta. I never read Miracleman... too rich for my blood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted February 18, 2005 If you shop around and are patient, Miracleman really isn't too expensive, especially since it had such a limited run. excepting, of course, #15. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jingus 0 Report post Posted February 18, 2005 Waaaay back somewhere in this folder, somebody posted a link to a website where most of Moore's run on Miracleman was posted in html format. You might try searching for it, but it was over a year ago at least. Has anyone ever read the Neil Gaiman issues of MM? Were they any good? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted February 18, 2005 Waaaay back somewhere in this folder, somebody posted a link to a website where most of Moore's run on Miracleman was posted in html format. You might try searching for it, but it was over a year ago at least. Has anyone ever read the Neil Gaiman issues of MM? Were they any good? Yes, if someone has this link, please post it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted February 19, 2005 It was: http://www.disappearhere.org/_marvelman/ It's no longer up. I've got/can get most of the run on the computer as well as in hard format. If people want me to zip it all up and share it, I shall. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted February 19, 2005 It was: http://www.disappearhere.org/_marvelman/ It's no longer up. I've got/can get most of the run on the computer as well as in hard format. If people want me to zip it all up and share it, I shall. YES!!!!!!!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nighthawk 0 Report post Posted February 19, 2005 I'd be down with that as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted February 19, 2005 All right. I hope to have it up in a couple of hours.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
humongous2002 0 Report post Posted February 20, 2005 Can't wait. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2005 It's under its own topic: Alan Moore's Miracleman run Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatinumBoy Report post Posted February 21, 2005 Here's a question for everyone. We know Silhouette was a lesbian. We know Hooded Justice and Captain Metropolis were gay lovers, but the question is--were Rorschach and Ozymandias both gay (obviously not together...)? Rorschach is turned off by female nudity, like watching the naked chick in the window, he's got some serious mommy/women issues at times, the weird handshake with Nite Owl II, his "face" comes from a woman's dress, etc. etc. Ozymandias, you'd figure he'd have women ALL over him. Rorschach thought he was gay, and Ozymandias' servant's comments to the liberal magazine about him not treating young women badly seemed a little odd. Then of course, Rorschach could just be Rorschach--a guy with a split personality and some issues, and Ozymandias could basically just obstain from sex, and he doesn't seem like the kind of guy who would care much about a short fling or one night stand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nighthawk 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2005 Rorschach seemed pretty clearly asexual. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatinumBoy Report post Posted February 21, 2005 Rorschach seemed pretty clearly asexual. What about Adrian? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nighthawk 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2005 Not sure. I'd probably just say it's not important had the implication that crime fighting was all about sex not have been made. I think the "Possible homosexual." comment was directly pertinent. Possibly he is, but we won't know for sure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2005 Rosarch was turned off by female nudity because of the situation with his mom. He's probably not gay, just traumitized and disturbed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatinumBoy Report post Posted February 21, 2005 God I love Watchmen. This thread inspired me to read it again last night for the 100'th time or so it seems and AGAIN I noticed stuff I haven't seen before. Little things like Rorschach using Veidt brand hairspray aganist the cops, and bigger things like Dr. Manhattan's Crystal Palace being a giant watch gear--somewhat bridging the gap between his humanity and who he wanted to be (a watchmaker--not to mention the incident that gave him his powers was involving Janey's watch) and what he is now forced to be. Though I wonder how "human" Dr. Manhattan is--or if like Swamp Thing he just is an entity that "remembers" his human life that never was. Personally, I think Dr. Manhattan is still a living thing--spawned from his old life and still "human", but he's obviously way beyond anything we are... the whole "Termite vs. Human" argument at the end. I do like before leaving he kinda gives a smile towards Nite Owl II and Silk Spectre II, showing that he wanted her to be happy and with her now content he can leave Earth behind--the last part of his humanity was the Silk Spectre II, so he can now kick it and leave. Also of course, the more humanity he loses, the more clothes he loses as well. Also, I may be looking to far into this, but at the very beginning when Laurel says she wants to call Dan, Manhattan looks very content and happy. He is absorbed in his work, but I've always wondered if he also is smiling because he "knows" that in the end this path will lead her to happiness. Also, for those of you who have read Kingdom Come, Rorschach makes an apperance in that. When Superman breaks up the bar scene, look in the background--you can see Rorschach at a table breaking someone's pinky finger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted February 21, 2005 With Ozymandias, it's hard to tell whether he's gay or straight, after the doctor metropolis meeting he's far too obsessed with saving the world to be concerned with sex. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatinumBoy Report post Posted March 4, 2005 Something else I just noticed that totally does give away Rorschach's identity. In Chapter V, the newspaper stand owner talks about stuff we never notice... and in the background you can see Rorschach as his "Sign of doom" self checking his trashcan for messages in the background. Also, it's too bad they don't update that online Watchmen thing to look for anymore, because something I noticed like the second time I read it that shows how awesome this book is; a reporter asks Dr. Manhattan "What's up Doc?" and it angers the Doctor--he replies that, "Up is a relative concept. It has no intrinsic value." Yet, when he first became Manhattan, before he lost much of his humanity, he asks Janie, "What's up?". To make another discussion point, why does Ozymandias let Nite Owl II and Silk Specter II live? I've heard various reasons, from he knows they won't tell his plans--which is the most obvious, logical thing, to other more out there ideas, like he needs them as witnesses in case someone does find out and he need help--which doesn't seem so logical or right. The most out there one I've heard that is somewhat good is that, if Veidt hurt Dan, Laurie would get pissed--which would piss of Jon, if he hurt Laurie then Jon would REALLY get pissed, and the last thing he needs is The Silver Surfer on steroids after him. Another thing I really love is when the Crimebusters meet, Rorschach's speech is normal, and he's a pretty smart guy. It's before he loses it and goes into "HURM" mode. Lastly, checking out the Watchmen RPG is kinda cool. It has some things that one could infer, like Sally Jupiter's cases a lot of times were rigged for publicity, and it says that without a shadow of a doubt, Comedian killed Hooded Justice--which Watchmen says anyway, but it leaves up to your imagniation a little. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest netslob Report post Posted March 4, 2005 With Ozymandias, it's hard to tell whether he's gay or straight, after the doctor metropolis meeting he's far too obsessed with saving the world to be concerned with sex. that's the way i always saw it. Ozy was such a workaholic that personal relationships would have just put a strain on his many goals. so he simply obstained. and besides, his character and motivations throughout the book made his sexuality irrelevent, anyway. same with Rorshach. he was also a workaholic, and obviously had issues with women and sexuality thanks, largely, to his mother. it was obvious in alot of places, like when he confessed to the shrink about being uncomfortable about working in the garment industry, or his rage about a model getting raped and no one helping her. by the end, he was completely obsessed with his "job" as a crime-fighter so again, his sexuality didn't matter. To make another discussion point, why does Ozymandias let Nite Owl II and Silk Specter II live? I've heard various reasons, from he knows they won't tell his plans--which is the most obvious, logical thing, to other more out there ideas, like he needs them as witnesses in case someone does find out and he need help--which doesn't seem so logical or right. The most out there one I've heard that is somewhat good is that, if Veidt hurt Dan, Laurie would get pissed--which would piss of Jon, if he hurt Laurie then Jon would REALLY get pissed, and the last thing he needs is The Silver Surfer on steroids after him. that actually makes alot of sense. Veidt tried to kill Jon by demolecularizing him, and even that didn't work. Veidt had to realize that pissing Jon off was akin to suicide. he WAS the world's smartest man. plus, even if Dan and Laurie went public, who'd believe them anyway? as far as the world knew, Adrian Veidt was a benevolent philanthropist and ex-crimefighter, and would never have the inclination to do such a horrible thing, nor the resources to do it. we, of course, know otherwise. the same with Rorshach's journal, who'd believe it? even without the disbelievable evidence on Veidt, how'd the public even believe it was Rorshach who even wrote it, and not just some nut who made it up for kicks. at most, it would just create doubt in the public's mind about Veidt, but that's about all. his various media outlets would probably just blow it off as rumor. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest PlatinumBoy Report post Posted March 4, 2005 With Ozymandias, it's hard to tell whether he's gay or straight, after the doctor metropolis meeting he's far too obsessed with saving the world to be concerned with sex. that's the way i always saw it. Ozy was such a workaholic that personal relationships would have just put a strain on his many goals. so he simply obstained. and besides, his character and motivations throughout the book made his sexuality irrelevent, anyway. same with Rorshach. he was also a workaholic, and obviously had issues with women and sexuality thanks, largely, to his mother. it was obvious in alot of places, like when he confessed to the shrink about being uncomfortable about working in the garment industry, or his rage about a model getting raped and no one helping her. by the end, he was completely obsessed with his "job" as a crime-fighter so again, his sexuality didn't matter. To make another discussion point, why does Ozymandias let Nite Owl II and Silk Specter II live? I've heard various reasons, from he knows they won't tell his plans--which is the most obvious, logical thing, to other more out there ideas, like he needs them as witnesses in case someone does find out and he need help--which doesn't seem so logical or right. The most out there one I've heard that is somewhat good is that, if Veidt hurt Dan, Laurie would get pissed--which would piss of Jon, if he hurt Laurie then Jon would REALLY get pissed, and the last thing he needs is The Silver Surfer on steroids after him. that actually makes alot of sense. Veidt tried to kill Jon by demolecularizing him, and even that didn't work. Veidt had to realize that pissing Jon off was akin to suicide. he WAS the world's smartest man. plus, even if Dan and Laurie went public, who'd believe them anyway? as far as the world knew, Adrian Veidt was a benevolent philanthropist and ex-crimefighter, and would never have the inclination to do such a horrible thing, nor the resources to do it. we, of course, know otherwise. the same with Rorshach's journal, who'd believe it? even without the disbelievable evidence on Veidt, how'd the public even believe it was Rorshach who even wrote it, and not just some nut who made it up for kicks. at most, it would just create doubt in the public's mind about Veidt, but that's about all. his various media outlets would probably just blow it off as rumor. I think if Rorschach was interested in women, it would be a very "Leave it to Beaver" style romance. Laurie Jane's costume bugged him, he freaked out over seeing the naked woman in her window, and he complained that none of the hookers and porno could offer him "American Love". He obviously wanted to be like his "Dad". Here's a question? Who's death was the most "tragic"? I always thought Nite Owl I biting the bullet was pretty bad. He was the most "normal" of the super heroes and seemed like a great guy, a real "boy scout" kinda guy. It is worth noting that when he gets killed by the gang in the flashback you can see Moloch, Big Figure, Captain Axis (the guy he tells Dan about beating up), and The Smoking Skull (the guy Nite Owl sees in the grocery store who converted to Christianity). I agree with Net Slob though, I think Veidt's secret was safe. Rorschach's journal wouldn't pursuade the general populice much. However, it is clear that he hasn't created eternal peace like he wanted, just ended the current conflict. Though you could do more with the characters the ending of Watchmen I think is still good though some dislike it--you have Laurie becoming The Comedian essentially... "Silk Specter's too girly, y'know? Plus, I want a better costume, that protects me: maybe something leather, with a mask over my face... Also, maybe I oughtta carry a gun." With Jon gone, the world's "Big problems" taken care of, and their identites safe, Dan and Laurie become superheroes, Veidt has achieved his goals, Jon is playing God off somewhere, and everyone else is either dead or retired. It's also worth saying that unlike her mother, Laurel was actually somewhat of a badass. She took down multiple armed men many times... you get the feeling she could have put a much better fight aganist the Comedian during the attempted rape/rape scene? For that matter--once again it's left to your imagination somewhat, but did Comedian really rape Silk Specter or just attempt it and was still subduing her when Hooded Justice beat the shit out of him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Special K 0 Report post Posted March 4, 2005 I always read it as the Comedian not being interrupted before he could start. Hooded's reaction to Spectre I is really fucked up and weird in that scene. I would infer that although he recognizes that Comedian was at fault in this scene, that Spectre one probably HAD been flirting with Comedian, and shown an interest in him. And in those times, that was probably looked down upon almost as much as what Comedian tried to do. Or he could just find the female form repulsive, being gay and all, or a combination of the two. He's one character I wish they had given a little more attention to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
