Innovation of Moves

[Guest Trivia247]

You take a look and span the decades in wrestling history and you wonder sometimes how certain moves that suddenly appear ever got created? Now Powerbombs were a rare thing in the US of the 1980's, however not so rare thing out in Japan. Though in the US they never called it such.

 

But taking a look at some of the stuff being done in TNA and I think My god, how the hell did they come up with that? I forget who does it, but who does that fricken Backflip Piledriver thingie? Who came up with that??? Who was the fool hardy soul who volunteer to practice that Move? Chris Sabin has this Swinging Soviet Suplex into a Backbreaker. Who imagined that up?

 

Im sure places like Japan and ROH Probably do more Innovated things than the one hour or so every five months I actually spend to watch TNA but it goes me thinking, sometimes about movesets and how they get so developed to the point where wrestlers are able to come up with their own Original moves.

 

Jake the Snake used the DDT as his finisher, Now he wasn't the First guy I don't think to use the DDT...However the naming of his Move was His and Has stuck with that particular Move Throughout ALL the Promotions across the globe.

 

You have of course Scorpion Deathlocks that probably been done even before Sting's time in Japan probably called something else, In the WWF in the 80's they called it a reverse Figure four for some reason because Ron Garvin used it. but Bret Hart called it the Sharpshooter and it finally recieved at least the WWE immortality. You probably catch the other promotions say Sharp shooter here and there but Places like TNA with Tenay you kinda expect the Scorpion Deathlock to be usually said.

 

Fisherman Suplex, the name of the move wasn't a WWF invention in of itself. Before Mr.Perfect turned it into the Perfect plex which most of us associate it with, it was called the Cradle Suplex, simple and direct. I don't know if the Fisherman suplex was a NWA terminology though I think a Young JR might have called it that in his NWA/WCW days.

 

You take a Move that is phenominally over because of the wrestler doing it. Like, Tombstone, Stone Cold Stunner, Diamond cutter (The only other variation that people remember the name of) Rock Bottom, and so forth and Pretty much most Promotions will call it by the Name that its most associated rather than the technical or given name. Stunner and or Cutter probably hold their own in terms of frequencies of being called in other promotions, but a hell of alot more than an Ace Crusher. Before the Undertaker and the Tombstone, the Tombstone was Just a Piledriver.... No Inverted, no reverse, just Piledriver, back in the 80's Davey Boy smith hit a Tombstone on Danny Davis, Don Muroco's own Piledriver was a Tombstone variety, but once again no clever name just a Piledriver, however. After the Undertaker, Everywhere on the map that Piledriver is called, Tombstone. Justin Credible's Tombstone, a Corkscrew Tombstone was still a Tombstone... And how about the Rock Bottom people? First of all outside of the Rock who actually saw anyone else do this move??? I have, and about three times better, Yokozuna, Bryan Clark etc etc etc. But before the Rock Bottom, what was the name of the move??? You don't know because they never called it! Oh they came up with names now, Sambo Suplex, Soviet suplex, Body Clutch, Uranaga, but again.... where and when did you hear it called such. Whenever a Rock Bottom is being done in some fasion be it Swinging, Throwing or the Lazy up and down in any promotion it will still be a Rock Bottom most likely.

 

 

Sorry just one of these things To rant about, there was a question on when and how do they innovate moves, but for some damn reason I forgot what it was.

[Guest bort]

I would say alot of moves orginated from amature wrestling or Judo. The fishermans suplex is pretty much just a standing cradle which is seen in many amature matches, The rock bottom basically is a variation of a judo throw.

[Jingus 0]

Jake the Snake used the DDT as his finisher, Now he wasn't the First guy I don't think to use the DDT...However the naming of his Move was His and Has stuck with that particular Move Throughout ALL the Promotions across the globe.

Yeah, he did invent it. By accident. He had a guy hooked in a front facelock, the guy stepped on Jake's foot, and they both fell, BOOM, that was it.

 

Before the Undertaker and the Tombstone, the Tombstone was Just a Piledriver.... No Inverted, no reverse, just Piledriver, back in the 80's Davey Boy smith hit a Tombstone on Danny Davis,  Don Muroco's own Piledriver was a Tombstone variety, but once again no clever name just a Piledriver, however. After the Undertaker, Everywhere on the map that Piledriver is called, Tombstone. Justin Credible's Tombstone, a Corkscrew Tombstone was still a Tombstone...

That move was already called the Tombstone Piledriver. That's why the WWF had Undertaker do it as his finisher, because it fit his gimmick. (And no I don't know where the name originally came from.)

 

As to how new moves get invented... well, how does anything get invented? Someone gets an idea for something new, tries it out, it works, and hey presto! you've got the Phoenix 630 or whatever.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

While Jake Roberts popularised the DDT, the first known instance that I can recall of a DDT or DDT-like move being used was during one of the Dory Funk Jr v Jack Brisco matches. I can't remember which of them used it, it might have been Dory, but I believe the match in question is on tape somewhere.

[Dace59 0]

As to how new moves get invented... well, how does anything get invented? Someone gets an idea for something new, tries it out, it works, and hey presto! you've got the Phoenix 630 or whatever.

 

Indeed, "hey I can do this...let's try....and hey, I saw some guy do this, so I can add these things in and give it a twist and here we go, something new"

 

That and ones just made up by mistake.

 

Names are just things that stick for one reason or another. Generally easier than the full on technical terms. Which are a little bit of amature, little bit of martial arts, little bit of English and some wrangling to make it sound how it looks.

[Jingus 0]

By the way, the phoenix 630 isn't hypothetical. There's an indy worker called Hexgage who wrestles in various places around the midwest & southeast that can do it.

[Dace59 0]

Has the wondeful flip monkey Jack Evans done it as well?

[JST 0]

Fun fact: some wrestlers actually try out new stuff with fully articulated action figures. They then try with someone else to get the feel of it and if it works, they go with it.

 

True story.

[Jingus 0]

Has the wondeful flip monkey Jack Evans done it as well?

I don't think he's done it yet, no.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

Well, that's next on Evans' agenda, then.

 

Also, a lot of wrestlers probably just watch Nova matches, or something.

 

...

 

What?! You knew a Nova joke would wind up somewhere in this thread.

[Guest LooneyTune]

For someone that gets a lot of love for being innovative (unless it's just a really dumb, long running joke), WWE sure did cut his balls off to make him Simon Dean..

[Precious Roy 0]

For a while Don Muraco used a pedigree without the double underhook. I don't know what he called it, but it was very unique at the time, and I've gotta think he stole it from someone.

[razazteca 0]

Didn't DDP use a variation of the Pedigree in WCW? I remember DDP doing a sitout instead of the kneel down version of the move during the 90s.

[deancoles 0]

Ron Bass used the Pedigree without the underhook in his WWF squashes in 87-88.

[Toshiaki Koala 0]

Has the wondeful flip monkey Jack Evans done it as well?

I don't think he's done it yet, no.

Of course he has done it. At least, he's done it from the top rope to the floor, which absolutely blew my mind when I saw it live as I didn't know such a move was even possible.

 

There's also an indy wrestler named Ricochet who does not only a forward 630 but an in-ring double moonsault. I saw a video of it on the hated ROH board and it's saved on my computer - just insane and ridiculous. Although he does come close to snapping his neck on the first attempt.

[Boner Kawanger 0]

Didn't DDP use a variation of the Pedigree in WCW? I remember DDP doing a sitout instead of the kneel down version of the move during the 90s.

More of a piledriver to a flapjack, but the same basic move. I always liked it.

[Nighthawk 0]

A pedigree without the underhook sounds like a pretty gay looking move.

[Art Sandusky 0]

I thought of a finisher earlier where you'd hold onto someone in the catapult until they just whip right back down to the mat face-first instead of letting them go flying on the way up. I'm sure someone's done it at some point though.

[Jingus 0]

Of course he has done it. At least, he's done it from the top rope to the floor, which absolutely blew my mind when I saw it live as I didn't know such a move was even possible.

? When did Jack do that?

 

There's also an indy wrestler named Ricochet who does not only a forward 630 but an in-ring double moonsault. I saw a video of it on the hated ROH board and it's saved on my computer - just insane and ridiculous. Although he does come close to snapping his neck on the first attempt.

Yeah, he works for the same company Hexgage does, Chaos Pro Wrestling. I've worked for them on several occasions doing ring announcing, and the time I saw Ricochet (who's only, like, 16) do the DoubleSalt it was maybe the most beautiful move I've ever seen.

[Guest Black Lightning]

Of course he has done it. At least, he's done it from the top rope to the floor, which absolutely blew my mind when I saw it live as I didn't know such a move was even possible.

? When did Jack do that?

I'm pretty sure he did it at ROH's Weekend of Thunder Night 2, in the four corner survival. He did it onto, of course, Special K at ringside.

[Guest Fook_Theta]

The Canadian Destroyer is a pretty simple and protected move. Pretty easy to think of, and I think in the past most people would catch the guy, pause, then do a regular tombstone/piledriver for the effect. The audience was conditioned in such a way that doing the flipping piledriver in that fashion wouldn't have looked as 'deadly'.

 

I was thinking in the other thread about how many new moves there are still out there to be discovered, although my thinking is they'll be for specific body parts. Think about a suplex that can be done just about anywhere(or in a regular match using the ropes), that the audience buys as more damaging to the arms or legs than the back/head. Seems weird to think about it, but it could be done.

 

A powerbomb that damages an arm. Any number of unusual concoctions are still out there to be discovered, but conditioning the audience to buy how dangerous they are is another thing. There are some protected moves and plenty of suicida unprotected moves still left to be found out and used to great effect.

[razazteca 0]

A powerbomb that damages an arm

I'm a big fan of the hammerlock bodyslam so why not a hammerlock powerbomb?

[Guest BDC]

I always thought that doing a standard powerbomb lift, but then turn the guy once you got him up and drop him on his side would be nasty.

 

When I started efedding, I would work up moves on my own, then find out later someone was already doing it. I thought up the Dragon Clutch back about five or six years ago for my character, then found out Low Ki used it.

[pochorenella 0]

Of course he has done it. At least, he's done it from the top rope to the floor, which absolutely blew my mind when I saw it live as I didn't know such a move was even possible.

? When did Jack do that?

I'm pretty sure he did it at ROH's Weekend of Thunder Night 2, in the four corner survival. He did it onto, of course, Special K at ringside.

Was that the cage match with the SATs, Teddy Hart and those other guys? Sick, sick bumps here. I loved the Spanish Fly from the top of the cage.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Fun fact: some wrestlers actually try out new stuff with fully articulated action figures. They then try with someone else to get the feel of it and if it works, they go with it.

 

True story.

I confess as a fan that I have used that technique before to think of counters, moves and sequences that can be done in the ring.

[Guest bort]

I thought i saw Jack do the phoniex 630 on one of the team mexico guys during one of the Xcup tag matches

[Guest Deadbolt]

I forget who does it, but who does that fricken Backflip Piledriver thingie? Who came up with that??? .

 

That's The Canadian Destroyer performed by Pete Williams, truly a holy shit long after you've seen it a few times.

[Guest Trivia247]

Before the Canadian Destroyer the one and only Holy Shit Move I ever saw was during Toryumon Comes to Japan where Dragon Kid did the Dragon Rana to SUWA. was like, what the hell.... He flipped forward then Flipped backwards....

[eiker_ir 0]

I thought i saw Jack do the phoniex 630 on one of the team mexico guys during one of the Xcup tag matches

 

is this the move were at the end he splashes the other guy with his back like if he did a Swanton?

[Guest Deadbolt]

I think it's a testiment to the creativenesss and versatality of the athletes themselves. Every other way thought possible of doing a piledriver had been done. Inverted, tombstone, underhook, spinning, even the top or second rope piledriver. Along comes Petey Williams and says, I can top that. Boom, he adds a front flip, and it's a flipping piledriver.

 

Now, IMO, I've seen some clips from ROH scramble matches, and I don't like some of it. The spots, while creative, wouldn't be as effective as they seem. With that out of the way, I'll comment on some that do.

 

A tag team had someone on the top rope, and it looked like they were gonna give him a double Rock Bottom, off the turnbuckle onto the floor, but the both backflipped (or moonsaulted) and it was a double fallaway flipping brainbuster/neckbreaker. It was sweet. A way of doing moves that you can't really pull off on the ground. I think that's an untapped resource. You're limited with weight, range, distance and what not when on the ground. There is so much that you can work with when you have extra air.

 

TO finish, I think it's mostly wrestlers doing two things. First, they're trying to top themselves. Like RVD said during the commentary of his match w/ Jerry Lynn on the ECW DVD, you go out there every night and top yourself, 1st he spin kicked a chair into someone's face, Van Daminator. Then he did it from the top rope, then a springboard, then a skateboard, then a Van terminator, then the coast to coast Van Terminator. They're always trying to improve on themselves, and their limitations. Which lead to my second point, and it's very simple. They're Evolving the business. They're building upon what the guys before them built, and it gets better and faster every year.