Better as face or heel?

[Guest netslob]

man, somebody's got their panties in a twist.

[Guest Loss]

No panties. No twisting. It's just getting really annoying to see him keep popping into topics to make a snide comment about the people that are interested in this stuff, only to go back and make patronizing "wrestling is cool" threads in the HD folder, apparently thinking we're too stupid to see through it. Whatever. Just don't talk about wrestling if you're not a fan. Rather simple.

[Guest netslob]

ok. sorry.

[Nighthawk 0]

No, you were right the first time. Loss hates me personally because I'm close friends with his gay stalker.

[Guest netslob]

ok. sorry.

[Guest krazykat72]

I like how people say Michaels' character now isn't working when he's consistently (aside from Batista lately) the most over guy on RAW with the crowd chanting his name and usually always getting into his matches.

 

Shawn was a great tag team babyface and his face run from mid-95-late'96 was probably his prime. He's also a tremendous face now as matches like the '03 Survivor Series and even the street fight last week demonstrate how he's able to garner sympathy from the crowd and get them behind him

 

He works fine as a heel, but people here have a tendency to ignore certain things because they have a bias against a certain wrestler.

People like to forget house show business going up in late '95-96 and if they remember attributing it exsclusively to Bret Hart even though their roles were equal. (Hart got the belt from Nash, while Michaels was obviously being groomed for the top spot).

 

As for the rest of the list:

 

1) Ric Flair-heel, the babyface turns were good in spurts, but overall the character works better as a villain

3) Bob Backlund- The people listing heel here are nuts. He's one of the top MSG draws of all time and the crowd often went *insane* for him. Face, easy.

4) Roddy Piper-Heel, not even a question.

5) Jake Roberts- Heel

6) Mick Foley- Face, not even close. His peak as the sympathetic everyman

7) Bret Hart- Face. He worked best as a workman like, stoic champion. The heel turn was fine, but his glory days were as a babyface

8) Lex Luger-arrogant heel Lex showed the most potential, but this si close. He had a nice, hot run as a babyface in '88.

9) The Rock-Face. He's far too charasmatic and his crowd interaction carried him to some of the business' most successful times.

10) Undertaker- face, though his bully like attitude in '02 breathed some new life into his character.

11) Randy Savage-heel. He was a fine face, but his ring style and demeanor worked better on the heel level.

12) Big Show/Giant-heel. He was booked great from hsis debut - first nWo run.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I like how people say Michaels' character now isn't working when he's consistently (aside from Batista lately) the most over guy on RAW with the crowd chanting his name and usually always getting into his matches.

To be fair, a guy can have a bad character, but if he is an expert at working the crowd, they'll wind up cheering him. Not necessarily what happens with Shawn, but it is something to consider. Also consider that for most of the Edge v Shawn Streetfight, the crowd were very quiet, and didn't really start cheering for Shawn until the blade job. If he were as over as you say, then they'd be chanting for him from the beginning. Shawn's character isn't a great one for a babyface, because religious orientated gimmicks are usually heel in nature, but he can overcome that to get the crowd cheering for him, though.

[Guest krazykat72]

To be fair, a guy can have a bad character, but if he is an expert at working the crowd, they'll wind up cheering him. Not necessarily what happens with Shawn, but it is something to consider. Also consider that for most of the Edge v Shawn Streetfight, the crowd were very quiet, and didn't really start cheering for Shawn until the blade job. If he were as over as you say, then they'd be chanting for him from the beginning. Shawn's character isn't a great one for a babyface, because religious orientated gimmicks are usually heel in nature, but he can overcome that to get the crowd cheering for him, though.

There are noticable chants of HBK before the bladejob.

If someone's really good at working the crowd, then it's in part due to their character.

Michaels' doesn't have a religious oriented character.

He never mentions his beliefs in promos and the most you can stretch for this is

his merchandise.

Lets look at his feuds since coming back.

 

His religion with the exception of one promo by Triple H is never mentioned or any type of factor in anything regarding, Benoit, Jericho, Edge, Christian (their mini one that culminated at the MSG Raw), Batista, Orton, Kane, etc.

 

Just because a guy wears a cross on his shirt and doesn't use profanity does not make his character a religious one.

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I guess you're ignoring Shawn crossing himself and practically praying during his entrances.

 

The Streetfight was still quiet for the first half of it, though, so I don't see how he is as over as you seem to think he is, when someone that over would be cheered from the beginning.

[Corey_Lazarus 0]

1) Ric Flair

Doesn't fucking matter, because he still entertained the hell out of me.

 

2) Shawn Michaels

Heel, particularly in DX.

 

3) Bob Backlund

Heel. Angry old man with a large vocabulary of big words he rarely uses in proper context? Ownage.

 

4) Roddy Piper

Doesn't matter to me, because I'll always mark for the Hot Rod.

 

5) Jake Roberts

Heel. It just fits his style better for him to be a heel.

 

6) Mick Foley

Face. He was allowed to be goofier and more like his true self as a face than he was as a heel...though his "Anti-Hardcore" ECW heel stuff is gold.

 

7) Bret Hart

I always liked him better as a heel, myself.

 

8) Lex Luger

Heel, because then I have a kayfabed reason to hate him.

 

9) The Rock

Heel, because he's more creative when he isn't fishing for pops.

 

10) Undertaker

Heel. I guess I'm one of the few people that REALLY liked the "you WILL respect me" Biker-Taker, eh?

 

11) Randy Savage

Heel. Just had the attitude for it.

 

12) Big Show/Giant

Face. DA SHOWSTER! SHOWKISHI!

[Some Guy 0]

I guess you're ignoring Shawn crossing himself and practically praying during his entrances.

Shane McMahon has crossed himself during matches. Does he have a religious gimmick? My previous post was no sold, but ask yourself if you did not know that he was a born again Christian from being on the net, would you realize that he is one by watching him on Raw? I'd probably look at it as a guy who had a serious back injury praying that he stays healthy, which is prbably what he's doing.

 

Hell, the guy used to wear chaps and a vest that were covered in crosses, they were hanging all over the thing and that was in the mid-90s, way before the Christian deal came around. I don't see him sporting that type of thing now.

 

I don't really get why people hate on him for finding God or whatever. I can see why they may dislike him for the shit he has pulled backstage or even dislike his work, but hating a guy for turning his life around is a little strange to me. The guy was fucked up on pain pills and what not and now he won't even drink a beer. That is admirable and shouldn't be mocked. I supose I'm taking this a little too personally but I've had two close friends die from drug overdoses and I wish that they would have found something, anything that would have given them the strengh to quit.

 

A guy who crosses himself and looks to the heavens during his entrance and wears a shirt with a Jesus Fish on it, is not pushing his religion on people. The schmuck at the supermarket who corners you and thrusts bible verses in your face and claims to want to save you after you made the mistake of telling her that you don't beleive in God, rather than just ignoring them and walking away is thrusting their relgion upon you. And, yes that really happened to me when I was about 15.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I guess you're ignoring Shawn crossing himself and practically praying during his entrances.

Shane McMahon has crossed himself during matches. Does he have a religious gimmick? My previous post was no sold, but ask yourself if you did not know that he was a born again Christian from being on the net, would you realize that he is one by watching him on Raw? I'd probably look at it as a guy who had a serious back injury praying that he stays healthy, which is prbably what he's doing.

 

Hell, the guy used to wear chaps and a vest that were covered in crosses, they were hanging all over the thing and that was in the mid-90s, way before the Christian deal came around. I don't see him sporting that type of thing now.

 

I don't really get why people hate on him for finding God or whatever. I can see why they may dislike him for the shit he has pulled backstage or even dislike his work, but hating a guy for turning his life around is a little strange to me. The guy was fucked up on pain pills and what not and now he won't even drink a beer. That is admirable and shouldn't be mocked. I supose I'm taking this a little too personally but I've had two close friends die from drug overdoses and I wish that they would have found something, anything that would have given them the strengh to quit.

 

A guy who crosses himself and looks to the heavens during his entrance and wears a shirt with a Jesus Fish on it, is not pushing his religion on people.

but ask yourself if you did not know that he was a born again Christian from being on the net, would you realize that he is one by watching him on Raw?

 

I think the t-shirt with a bible phrase that he wore in his comeback match at Summerslam 2002 would have been a big hint. He's worn many a religious shirt on-screen, and his latest merchandise even plays on his religious beliefs as well. And once a guy's beliefs make it on screen in some fashion, they become part of his gimmick.

 

I don't really get why people hate on him for finding God or whatever.

 

I don't think anyone has said they hate him for finding God. They just dislike the fact that it plays a part of his on-screen persona, which it does, whether you like it or not.

 

A guy who crosses himself and looks to the heavens during his entrance and wears a shirt with a Jesus Fish on it, is not pushing his religion on people.

 

No, but he's making it part of his gimmick and persona, which people, rightly or wrongly, can take it to mean he's pushing his beliefs.

[alfdogg 0]

1) Ric Flair - Heel

2) Shawn Michaels - Heel

3) Bob Backlund - Heel

4) Roddy Piper - Heel

5) Jake Roberts - Heel

6) Mick Foley - Face

7) Bret Hart - Face

8) Lex Luger - Heel

9) The Rock - Heel

10) Undertaker - Heel

11) Randy Savage - Face

12) Big Show/Giant - Face

^^^

[Some Guy 0]

I think the t-shirt with a bible phrase that he wore in his comeback match at Summerslam 2002 would have been a big hint. He's worn many a religious shirt on-screen, and his latest merchandise even plays on his religious beliefs as well. And once a guy's beliefs make it on screen in some fashion, they become part of his gimmick.

 

It's not exactly overt. He wears a shirt, what an asshole!

 

I don't really get why people hate on him for finding God or whatever.

 

I don't think anyone has said they hate him for finding God. They just dislike the fact that it plays a part of his on-screen persona, which it does, whether you like it or not.

 

It sure seems like it. The vitriol and mocking I've read here are way over-the-top for how minor a role the religion plays into the character, besides the lack of cursing. I would say that many of the people either blindly hate the guy or dislike Christianity being promoted in even the slightest way.

 

A guy who crosses himself and looks to the heavens during his entrance and wears a shirt with a Jesus Fish on it, is not pushing his religion on people.

 

No, but he's making it part of his gimmick and persona, which people, rightly or wrongly, can take it to mean he's pushing his beliefs.

 

That would be wrongly. And the accusation wasn't that he was pushing his religion, it was that he was shoving it into people's faces. I've never once seen HBK on TV and thought that he was really pushing his religion, much less shoving it into people's faces. I'm not a big fan of the character because I find it boring and he was so much better as an asshole heel, the religion has nothing to do with it really, although I suspect it effects his decision making process and has kept him from turning heel.

[Guest cosbywasmurdered]

1) Ric Flair- heel

2) Shawn Michaels- face

3) Bob Backlund- heel

4) Roddy Piper- heel

5) Jake Roberts- heel

6) Mick Foley- face

7) Bret Hart- face

8) Lex Luger- heel

9) The Rock- heel

10) Undertaker- heel

11) Randy Savage- face

12) Big Show/Giant- face

[Guest Rrrsh]

) Ric Flair

I would say face, becuase deep down we all wanted to cheer for him.

 

2) Shawn Michaels

Heel, definatly. Shawn is at his best when he is pissing people off and bumping his ass off.

 

3) Bob Backlund

Face.

 

4) Roddy Piper

Hell, this aint close. Heel, easy.

 

5) Jake Roberts

He was SO good on the stick both ways. I say Heel just for his Savage fued.

 

6) Mick Foley

Face. His charicter in 99 was so over, he played it up well.

 

7) Bret Hart

I'd say heel because he plays a very good bitter, whiney bitch. He was really hated in 97.

 

8) Lex Luger

I'd say face because it was more natural for him. I think he really likes being cheered.

 

9) The Rock

Face. His heel stuff is so short term. Its real tough to keep that going for a long time. As a face, you catchphrase it up till the cows come home.

 

10) Undertaker

Face. Taker cant wrestle like a heel properly. So people don't boo him long term.

 

11) Randy Savage

Face. I think his best charicter was 92. The business was down and he was more sucsessful in 87. But I think he plays a better blind rage man pertecting his wife than anything else.

 

12) Big Show/Giant

I guess heel. It all depends if show wants to try. What side he on dosn't matter

[CBright7831 0]

1) Ric Flair

During his prime, he was the GREATEST heel of all time. He will always be remembered his heelness in the 80's/early 90's. But now, Flair is 50+ years old, and I say he should be a face. I started watching wrestling again in the mid 90's, Flair was a face. I watched wrestling back in the late 80's/early 90's but didn't watch much WCW/NWA.

 

2) Shawn Michaels

Face.

 

3) Bob Backlund

Never really saw Backlund in his prime as a face, so I'll go with heel.

 

4) Roddy Piper

It's a toss up.

 

5) Jake Roberts

Heel.

 

6) Mick Foley

Face.

 

7) Bret Hart

Tough one. Like Piper, it's a toss up.

 

8) Lex Luger

Face, I guess.

 

9) The Rock

FACE! FACE! FACE! Some of his lines as a heel were gold though.

 

10) Undertaker

Face.

 

11) Randy Savage

Another toss up.

 

12) Big Show/Giant

He should be a tweener.

 

Sorry for the Flair rant, I just need to get it out of my system.

[Guest krazykat72]

Anyone claiming Backlund was better as a heel should actually go out and watch his 78-83 run. I have a feeling there's barely anyone here who's done so because it wouldn't even be a discussion if they had. He's one of the most glaring yes answers on the list on the list.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

[Internet Warfare 0]

1) Ric Flair- Heel

2) Shawn Michaels- Heel

3) Bob Backlund- face

4) Roddy Piper- Face

5) Jake Roberts- Heel

6) Mick Foley- Face

7) Bret Hart- Face

8) Lex Luger- Face

9) The Rock- Face

10) Undertaker- face

11) Randy Savage- Face

12) Big Show/Giant- Heel

[Guest JMA]

1) Ric Flair - Heel

2) Shawn Michaels - Heel

3) Bob Backlund - Heel

4) Roddy Piper - Heel

5) Jake Roberts - Heel

6) Mick Foley - Face

7) Bret Hart - Face

8) Lex Luger - Heel

9) The Rock - Heel

10) Undertaker - Tweener

11) Randy Savage - Heel

12) Big Show/Giant - Heel

 

Wow, I must have a preference for heel characters.

[Betty Houle 0]

I never finished my list...

 

1) Ric Flair- heel

2) Shawn Michaels- babyface

3) Bob Backlund- babyface

4) Roddy Piper- heel

5) Jake Roberts- Heel

6) Mick Foley- babyface

7) Bret Hart- babyface

8) Lex Luger- babyface

9) The Rock- babyface

10) Undertaker- babyface

11) Randy Savage- tctc

12) Big Show/Giant- who cares.

[Betty Houle 0]

Not that Luger's all that great either way but who think's he was better as a heel??? That guy was soooo much better as a babyface. He was only good as a heel if some awesome babyface was with him. Steamboat.

[CanadianGuitarist 0]

1) Ric Flair

Heel, indeed the measuring stick as a heel.

 

2) Shawn Michaels

Face, despite the fact I hate him. I never saw him as a legit heel.

 

3) Bob Backlund

Heel. Next.

 

4) Roddy Piper

Heel.

 

5) Jake Roberts

Heel. Anyone with a good vocabulary and promos that make you think should be a heel. Two exceptions to the rule: Foley and Hart

 

6) Mick Foley

Face. Gotta root for the underdog, and during his championshp days, I think a lof of fans saw him as an everyman.

 

7) Bret Hart

I liked what he had to say during his later days in the WWF as a heel, but I'll always be a Hitman mark. Face.

 

8) Lex Luger

Heel. Could never get behind him as a face.

 

9) The Rock

Heel. Far more entertaining and likable when he's not spitting out one liners.

 

10) Undertaker

Face. Don't like him, but he could get a crowd to cheer him, I feel, a lot more effectively.

 

11) Randy Savage

Heel.

 

12) Big Show/Giant

Heel.

[Guest Loss]

Betty, Luger just wasn't someone who was easy to like as a babyface. He didn't seem friendly or genuine, he still seemed phony and full of himself. When he turned heel, it was a natural fit because it fit his real demeanor. He was probably carried to better matches by Flair as a face, but he had a more believable character as a heel every time out.

[King Cucaracha 0]

Anyone claiming Backlund was better as a heel should actually go out and watch his 78-83 run. I have a feeling there's barely anyone here who's done so because it wouldn't even be a discussion if they had. He's one of the most glaring yes answers on the list on the list.

 

 

-Paul Jacobi-

Depends on the criteria. He was MUCH more entertaining as a heel. As a face, from what I've seen, Backlund came across as a little bland character wise. Nice guy. But maybe a little too nice.

 

Of course he was more successful as a face. There's a lot of guys who were more successful in one disposition but more entertaining with another. Luger maybe, Michaels maybe, Backlund certainly. And that's not a knock on Backlund and his face run, because he did a great job with it. He was just more entertaining as a heel.

[Betty Houle 0]

Betty, Luger just wasn't someone who was easy to like as a babyface. He didn't seem friendly or genuine, he still seemed phony and full of himself. When he turned heel, it was a natural fit because it fit his real demeanor. He was probably carried to better matches by Flair as a face, but he had a more believable character as a heel every time out.

Maybe. I see your point about him not necesarily being easy to like as a babyface at times, but it was pretty easy to back in 1988. He was insanely over for a while (and was once again in 1990 and 1997). Overall I think he makes a better babyface because of his babyface fire and awesome comebacks. His promos suck either way though!*

 

*A brief mention of one of the few brushes with celebrity I've had: I had the opportunity to hang out in Luger's presence for the better part of a day once. He was a really fucking funny guy. Never came across in his promos though!