Senate to Vote on Minimum Wage

[Guest Loss]

The tax structure is bonkos in the UK though, especially compared to here. It only makes sense that it would be higher, does it not?

[Guest CronoT]

Don't worry, though, the bankruptcy bill has a nice little loophole for the super rich.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/02/business...print&position=

 

And it's not gonna touch corporations in the slightest bit.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...9-2005Mar2.html

Gee, now there's a surprise. Why would Bush want to BJ his biggest supporters?

[2GOLD 0]

Comparing 18 yr olds with credit cards to little kids with cig ads is just absurd.

 

They are 18. They have a fully working brain. If they honestly don't know by the time they head to college that credit cards are NOT free money, then they deserve every ounce of debt they dig themselves into.

 

I feel no pity for anyone who digs themselves into credit card hell. If you don't want to read all the fine print (when it clearly states that the interest rate will rise dramatically on the back of those forms) then you deserve the hole.

 

Hell, my Dad is in debt with credit cards and he'll freely admit he dug this hole and he deserves it.

 

Is the interest rate fair? Hell no.

Is it fair that people use $1000 of a company's money and then make a monthly payment of 70 dollars not expecting any recourse? Hell no.

 

It's a two way street. People just get upset because they are finally encountering someone in their life who is giving them just enough rope to hang themselves.

[Boon 0]

It's a two way street. People just get upset because they are finally encountering someone in their life who is giving them just enough rope to hang themselves.

That's a nice analogy.

 

Anyway- I have three credit cards, and I'm a 20-year old college student. I know that if I don't pay them off in a timely manner, I can be screwed over for months at a time, so I'm responsible and don't buy things excessively.

 

While the credit card companies are not totally blameless in all this mess, the number of people failing to accept responsibility for their own actions (and the number of others supporting their doing so) is disturbing. I guess I'm just tired of seeing dumbasses using the cards as a tool to live a lifestyle they can't afford. I pity those folks whose medical bills or job loss forces them into debt (a compeletely different situation altogether), but I just can't support people getting off the hook for their own irresponsible behavoir that is nobody's fault but their own.

 

Seconded.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

You can get credit cards prior to age 18.

[NoCalMike 0]

Don't worry, though, the bankruptcy bill has a nice little loophole for the super rich.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/02/business...print&position=

 

And it's not gonna touch corporations in the slightest bit.

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/artic...9-2005Mar2.html

Could you post the nytimes article, cause you have to be registered to view it, and I am at work and all so, umm..yeah....

[2GOLD 0]

You can get credit cards prior to age 18.

 

Oh, so 16 yr olds are completely stupid and can't read now?

 

Unless someone is so stupid they don't know the definition of the word "CREDIT" then I have no sympathy. And even then, I have no sympathy for them.

 

The only ones I have sympathy for are the ones who use the credit card for food cause the rest of their money is going to bills. It totally sucks for them that they have no other choice but you can't say the CC companies are evil because they want their money back.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

For the record, I am against the minimum wage hike, but I am also against the "screw the poor people" mentality.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

For

 

You're clueless

 

the record

 

That is copious logic.

 

I am

 

Life ain't fair. Deal with it and move on.

 

against the

 

You've botched this post so thoroughly that we can't save you now.

 

minimum wage hike

 

Is this hard to fathom? What part is losing you?

 

,

 

Don't be afraid --- words won't hurt you.

 

but I am

 

It's time you realize how idiotic your incessant carping sounds.

 

also against

 

"economic bondoogles"

 

the "screw the poor people" mentalitly.

 

Democracy is a process, not an event.

 

-=Mike

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

Oh, so 16 yr olds are completely stupid and can't read now?

 

Yeah, *that's* what I said.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. I was just clarifying what you said about 18 yr. olds.

 

And pinnacle just received the business end of a good ol' fashioned pwning.

[Big Ol' Smitty 0]

For nocal:

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

March 2, 2005

Proposed Law on Bankruptcy Has Loophole

By GRETCHEN MORGENSON

 

he bankruptcy legislation being debated by the Senate is intended to make it harder for people to walk away from their credit card and other debts. But legal specialists say the proposed law leaves open an increasingly popular loophole that lets wealthy people protect substantial assets from creditors even after filing for bankruptcy.

 

The loophole involves the use of so-called asset protection trusts. For years, wealthy people looking to keep their money out of the reach of domestic creditors have set up these trusts offshore. But since 1997, lawmakers in five states - Alaska, Delaware, Nevada, Rhode Island and Utah - have passed legislation exempting assets held domestically in such trusts from the federal bankruptcy code. People who want to establish trusts do not have to reside the five states; they need only set their trust up through an institution in one of them.

 

"If the bankruptcy legislation currently being rushed through the Senate gets enacted, debtors won't need to buy houses in Florida or Texas to keep their millions," said Elena Marty-Nelson, a law professor at Nova Southeastern University in Fort Lauderdale, Fla., referring to generous homestead exemptions in those states. "The millionaire's loophole that is the result of these trusts needs to be closed."

 

Yesterday in Washington, Republicans in the Senate beat back the first in a series of Democratic amendments aimed at softening the effects of the bankruptcy bill on military personnel, and the majority leader of the House vowed to get quick approval of the bill if the Senate did not significantly alter it.

 

"We will grab hold of it just like we did class action if it is a good and clean bankruptcy reform bill," said Representative Tom DeLay, a Texas Republican, referring to the quick action the House took last month on a measure limiting class-action lawsuits.

 

The Senate bill is favored by banks, credit card companies and retailers, who say it is now too easy for consumers to erase their debts through bankruptcy.

 

It is almost identical to previous versions that have been introduced in Congress, unsuccessfully, since 1998. Perhaps because the current bill was written so long ago, some legal authorities say, it does not address the new state laws that have allowed asset protection trusts to flourish.

 

"This is just a way for rich folks to be able to slip through the noose on bankruptcy, and, of course, the double irony here is that the proponents of this bill keep pressing it as designed to eliminate abuse," said Elizabeth Warren, a law professor at Harvard Law School. "Yet when provisions that permit real abuse by rich people are pointed out, the bill's proponents look the other way."

 

Senator Charles E. Grassley, an Iowa Republican, is the main sponsor of the bankruptcy bill. His press secretary, Beth Levine, said the senator's staff was unaware of the trusts and the loophole for the wealthy that they represented. "The senator is always open to suggestions for closing these loopholes," she said.

 

Money held in asset protection trusts can elude creditors because federal bankruptcy law exempts assets governed by "applicable nonbankruptcy law." Intended to preserve rights to property under state law, the exemption makes it difficult for creditors to get hold of assets that they would not be able to seize through a nonbankruptcy proceeding in state court.

 

Asset protection trusts have become increasingly popular in recent years among physicians, who fear large medical malpractice awards, and corporate executives, whose assets are at greater peril now because of new laws. The Sarbanes-Oxley legislation, for example, requires chief executives and chief financial officers to certify that their companies' financial statements are accurate; anyone who knowingly certifies false numbers can be fined up to $5 million. In addition, under Sarbanes-Oxley, executives may have to reimburse their companies for bonuses or other incentive compensation they received if their company's financial reports have to be restated in later years.

 

"Given all the notoriety of what we're seeing today, from HealthSouth to WorldCom, there is probably more of an impetus for executives to consider going this route," said Scott E. Blakeley, a lawyer at Blakeley & Blakeley in Irvine, Calif. "And yet in the bankruptcy bill, this topic is not touched."

 

While it is difficult to quantify how much money is sitting in domestic asset protection trusts, their popularity is undeniable, bankruptcy specialists said. "I've heard figures for foreign asset protection trusts and those probably are in the billions," said Adam J. Hirsch, a law professor at Florida State University. "I haven't seen any figures for domestic asset protection trusts, but they could very well be the same."

 

Current federal bankruptcy law protects assets held in a type of trust, known as a spendthrift trust, traditionally set up by one family member to benefit another. But current law does not protect the assets of people who set up spendthrift trusts to benefit themselves. And the law limits the purposes of the trusts that qualify for exemption. Retirement planning or paying for education are two approved purposes for such trusts.

 

By contrast, domestic asset protection trusts can be set up by the same people who plan to benefit from them. In addition, there are no caps on the dollar amount of assets they can hold and no restrictions on their purpose, Ms. Marty-Nelson said. One limitation is that the trusts cannot be set up by people who are already insolvent.

 

The states that allow these trusts do so to attract the significant money management and trustee fees that accompany them, Mr. Hirsch said. "It's what is known in the parlance of legal policy analysis as a race to the bottom," he said.

 

The authors of the Delaware law, for example, noted when it was passed in 1997 that it was meant to "maintain Delaware's role as the most favored jurisdiction for the establishment of trusts."

 

In some ways, asset protection trusts are similar to the homestead exemption that keeps homes in Florida, Texas and other states out of the reach of creditors. But the bankruptcy law now under consideration limits this exemption to $125,000 for those who purchased the home within 40 months of their bankruptcy filing or for those who have committed securities fraud.

 

Ms. Marty-Nelson said the bankruptcy bill should at least apply such a cap to domestic asset protection trusts. Better yet, she said, the bill should exclude these trusts from the federal exemption altogether.

 

"Congress can and should close this huge loophole," she said.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

Oh, so 16 yr olds are completely stupid and can't read now?

 

Yeah, *that's* what I said.

 

Please don't put words in my mouth. I was just clarifying what you said about 18 yr. olds.

 

And pinnacle just received the business end of a good ol' fashioned pwning.

Old-fashioned ones are the best kind.

[lomasmoney 0]

You can tell the people that have never had to work a day in their lives from the ones living in the real world. 

 

In the REAL world, showing up to work, and being a hard worker doesn't mean shit.  Seroiusly...it doesn't.  There are times and opportunities that might arise, but right now there is some dude that has been at his job for years and showed up to work on time everyday and works his ass off and he has seen no advancement for it. 

 

Dumbass people say "why doesn't he just quit and get another job". Well because John Q. Hardworker has a family that he has to support and goes to his second job when he leaves there and gets home exhausted and does this 6-7 days a week.  He can't afford to quit and find another job because that is time where no income in comeing in.  And we know that someone like mike isn't saying let him get on unemployment insurance during that time, because, you know, that is WRONG. 

 

Fun Fact:  Finding a new job requires time to look and apply and go on interviews.

 

So basically so many people who are in the "have" catagory keep pretending that those in the "have not" catagory are lazy or not hard workers or unskilled or whatever and continue to prove what stupid ass cunts they are.  OPPORTUNITY and/or HARDWORK will allow you to succed, hardwork alone will not.  That "the poor are poor because they don't work hard not to be" has got to be the dumbest thinking in the world.

A little late to the party, but this sums up most of my feelings on the subject. I was fresh off my first year of college, and I tried looking everywhere for jobs. Retail, fast food, everything. I looked for internships with my city attorney, working at local recreation facilities with children. No one wanted to hire a 19 year old with experience in mutliple fields who had never made less than $8 since I was 15 years old. I thought I had my job from last summer still, but I was screwed over because the pharmacy where I worked had cut everyone's hours to make room for a Pharmacy Intern from Pakistan.

 

This was after the idiot manager fucked me out of a days pay when at the end of my shift over break he informed me that due to the fact that I was thinking of transferring to a store in Ann Arbor but never doing so due to school, they had accidentially terminated me and I wasn't even a CVS employee. Then I finally only get a job at my friend's mom's Subway because one of my other friends found a higher paying job. I started out making $6 an hour already a sharp cut from the 9 dollars I was making at CVS. I also went from making 300+ plus a week which was more than enough to cover a few months of rent for my apartment when I was at school.

 

Now after not getting the raise to $6.50 which my manager told me I would get after a month, I began looking for other work. A month later, in late July, essentially the end of summer, the temp company that hires out people for the IRS building where my mom works in Detroit finally called me back and said they had a position on the third shift paying $10.10 an hour. This is great or so I thought. I ended up doing the work of people who were actually IRS employees but too incompotent or too lazy to perform their jobs. I have the lead supervisor asking me for help on machines when I was just a clerk, I had the floor manager bitching me out for not being in my area when the supervisor told me one thing. I had my mom screaming bloody murder every morning at everyone when she came in for day shift. To top it off I was still working at Subway during the day, and even after telling the manager ( whom is a friend, and puts off responsibilty to the assistant manager a girl a year older who was pregnant and hated me because I wasn't proficient at wrapping sandwhiches since I wasnt a scrub and wasnt a career subway worker) that I was working the third shift I got off at 8am and I would perfer to work only weekends, the asst. manager decided that to be cute she would schedule me for for this whopper of a schedule. 4pm-10pm (which was followed by a 12am-8am shift at the IRS job) which then was followed up by an 11am-3pm shift again at subway on no sleep at all.

 

Then after putting in a request for a saturday off so I could go to the Tigers game the I'm nicely schedules to work 9-5 the day of the game. Then when I come in for my sunday shift an hour late. I get bitched out by another worker for being late and telling me I had to come in and work the 4-10 shift at the request of the assistant manager. This is some of the shit that I was putting up with for what amount to about 106 dollars a week. For going out and getting a second job, was I given sympathy. Not at all. If the min. wage was raised to 7.25 or whatever, it would at least give hard-working people like me an incentive to put up with the crap we put up at jobs. The sad part is the only lady working there at Subway getting paid less than me was a mother who had three kids and while she did have a husband with , she had lost her bar in Corktown by Tiger Stadium because when the team moved to Comerica, she lost so much business she went broke.

 

The sad part about Subway is that if I was to have that as a means of support while I was in school, I would be making 480 before taxes which would be say 460. That doesn't even cover rent for my house, which is much cheaper than living in the dorms. That being said a person in college who is working and going to school should at least be able to cover montly rent.

[Guest Brian]

For

 

You're clueless

 

the record

 

That is copious logic.

 

I am

 

Life ain't fair. Deal with it and move on.

 

against the

 

You've botched this post so thoroughly that we can't save you now.

 

minimum wage hike

 

Is this hard to fathom? What part is losing you?

 

,

 

Don't be afraid --- words won't hurt you.

 

but I am

 

It's time you realize how idiotic your incessant carping sounds.

 

also against

 

"economic bondoogles"

 

the "screw the poor people" mentalitly.

 

Democracy is a process, not an event.

 

-=Mike

It would be the funniest thing if one day we all went and chopped are posts like this.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

ONE DAY?!

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

If the min. wage was raised to 7.25 or whatever, it would at least give hard-working people like me an incentive to put up with the crap we put up at jobs.

 

Fresh out of my college-days I moved with the better half to Sappy Valley, the biggest shithole I have had the misfortune of living at. I then learned the hard way that if you had any hope of getting a job in State College you had to be a student for from the PSU machine. I started out working third shift as a temp at a yearbook publishing building as a pseudo graphic-designer. While working there for $7.50/hour I was looking for other work but to no avail. When that was over in April, I quit the temp job because of a conflict regarding pay that they screwed me out of. I eventually found work. I was a cashier and a copy editor. For 14 months I worked seven days/60+ hours per week, many of the shifts being of the overnight variety. I hated both jobs -- I was surrounded by rednecks that had more DUI's than college degrees at my one job and had to work with this fat bitch at my other job. And my cashier's job was MINIMUM WAGE; the other job wasn't much better. Yet somehow, someway I managed. It's called life.

 

a person in college who is working and going to school should at least be able to cover montly rent.

 

And if they can't then they should live at home and go to a local college. Or, perhaps a person in college should have started saving up for his or her stint in the higher learning system long before they turned 18 years of age...

[Stephen Joseph 0]

Well, both versions failed, so no hike for awhile

[Ripper 0]

But seriously, they are going to have to do something to adjust that fucker to the local inflation and cost of living. A nationwide minumum wage that low is just stupid. I mean, you can probably pull that off in my home town (the GOOD apartments cost like 400 for a 3 bedroom.) but impossible in other cities.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Then move to an area with a lower cost of living if all you can do is clean toilets -- I do that by living in a county outside of Shittsburgh where the sales/property taxes aren't as bad (yet). Besides many low-skill jobs pay above minimum wage anyway...

[Guest Agent of Oblivion]

No shit. I make twelve something and I work with some dumbfucks.

[Ripper 0]

Then move to an area with a lower cost of living if all you can do is clean toilets -- I do that by living in a county outside of Shittsburgh where the sales/property taxes aren't as bad (yet). Besides many low-skill jobs pay above minimum wage anyway...

Because moving to a new state doesn't cost money at all...

 

 

 

goddamned hippie you.

[NoCalMike 0]

But seriously, they are going to have to do something to adjust that fucker to the local inflation and cost of living. A nationwide minumum wage that low is just stupid. I mean, you can probably pull that off in my home town (the GOOD apartments cost like 400 for a 3 bedroom.) but impossible in other cities.

umm....wha wha WHAT? There are actually apartments left in this country that cost $400/mo for a 3 Bedroom apartment? Hell, out here $400 a month wouldn't even buy a broom closet.

[kkktookmybabyaway 0]

Well if you're so poor then it shouldn't cost much, if anything, seeing how you'd have nothing to move since you're broke...

[Guest Loss]

There are 3BR places in Arkansas that cost under $400, actually. There are nice 3BR townhouses that are only $500 a month here as well.

[Ripper 0]

But seriously, they are going to have to do something to adjust that fucker to the local inflation and cost of living.  A nationwide minumum wage that low is just stupid.  I mean, you can probably pull that off in my home town (the GOOD apartments cost like 400 for a 3 bedroom.) but impossible in other cities.

umm....wha wha WHAT? There are actually apartments left in this country that cost $400/mo for a 3 Bedroom apartment? Hell, out here $400 a month wouldn't even buy a broom closet.

Dude, its Troy Alabama. If you are making 8 dollars an hour there, you are into the big money. Everyone is basically making minimum wage.

 

...

 

 

Except for the really really rich people that just live there to mock all the poor people.

[Stephen Joseph 0]

There are 3BR places in Arkansas that cost under $400, actually. There are nice 3BR townhouses that are only $500 a month here as well.

I hate you all.

 

A efficiency in No. Virginia costs 800...an efficiency!

[Damaramu 0]

Yeah it's definitely cheaper to live in Oklahoma than the bigger states. 400 a month is about regular for a 2 bedroom here.

But I mean I can't work full time b/c of school so I still can't afford to get out on my own.

Not that that has anything to do with minimum wage since I make above minimum.

[Boon 0]

Ugh.

 

I'm in MA- a single BR apartment will run you upwards to $1,000 a month here in Boston.

[Guest pinnacleofallthingsmanly]

I live in Baltimore and a shitty 3BR costs $800 a month.

[Guest Vitamin X]

My 2BR/2BA here in a decent part of Miami (the western part, maybe a 10-15 minute drive from downtown which to people here is OMG SO FAR) is $895/month.

 

My only complaint is the elevators in our buildings which feel like total deathtraps.