If Luke knew who Anikan really was

[Art Sandusky 0]

EU is far from canon and is almost nothing but retarded shit that happens when fantasy authors get a hold of science fiction. Fuck the EU.

 

Also, if Luke had fought the Emperor, he would have lost, because one of two things would have happened:

 

1. Palpatine would have just outright killed Luke, or

2. Palpatine would have let Luke kill him, but in such a way that it would have driven him to the dark side. So, even if the Emperor died, he would have won, since Luke would have become a Dark Jedi/Sith.

 

Yeah, true fan my ass. Anyone who's casually gone to see any of the films in theaters or owns them at home knows that any plan with Palpatine involved means him being on top at the end of the plan. That's why he's the real villain of the saga. He knows Vader will defend him if Luke attacks him in the throne room, and from there Luke can kill Vader and take his place as the new apprentice. Palpatine gets Anakin to do the very same thing to Dooku, that being to off the previous apprentice and taking their place.

[Vern Gagne 0]

So if any Jedi kills a Sith does that mean the turn to the darkside?

[Spaceman Spiff 0]

Am I the only one not feeling this whole Palpatine thing? I mean I haven't really seen much in the first two movies from this guy that makes me think he's going to end up the ULTRA BAD ASS Emperor that tries to rule the universe. At most he seems like a smarmy politician who is lying his ass off to the senate while belonging to a cult on the side.

A run-down of what Palpatine has done in the prequels so far:

 

Pushed the Trade Federation (posing as Sidious) to blockade Naboo, knowing it would lead to hostilities. He also knows the Senate would be paralyzed by bureaucracy, so he is able to force a vote of "no confidence" in the current Chancellor, knowing he'd get the sympathy vote because he is from Naboo. So, now he's gone from ordinary senator to Chancellor of the Senate.

 

In Ep. 2, he cons Jar-Jar into convincing the Senate to grant Palpatine "emergency powers", which includes the use of clone army. Palpatine also delivers this awesome quote:

It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy... I love the Republic.  But I am mild by nature, and I do not desire to see the destruction of democracy. The power you give me I will lay down when this crisis has abated, I promise you.

What a dick! You know he's lying through his teeth.

 

Meanwhile, he has Dooku doing his dirty work to sign up various systems for war against the Republic. He even has the schematics in place for the construction of the 1st Death Star.

 

COUNT DOOKU: I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has

begun.

 

DARTH SIDIOUS: Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as planned.

 

By the end of Ep. 2, he's started the wheels in motion for galactic war in order to solidify his power. And he did it right under the noses of the Jedi Council, who are completely unaware of what is going on.

 

The guy is pulling everybody's strings (as both Palpatine and Sidious) in order to rise to power. And that's not even taking into account what he'll do in Ep. 3 (which includes showing off his Force powers).

[Art Sandusky 0]

So if any Jedi kills a Sith does that mean the turn to the darkside?

No, but the way Palpatine sets it up is to take someone who is vulnerable to turn to the dark side and convince them that the dark feelings they have are the only way to go, and he happens to use Dooku and later Vader himself to try and turn others and get a new, better apprentice at the same time.

[Modern Man's Hustle 0]

Firstly, the Jedi do not believe in killing their enemies. Belief in redemption fuels their efforts, which is why they try to capture most of their enemies alive. Giving into your primal urges and striking down your enemy out of hatred goes against the Jedi code, which would be turning towards the darkside.

[SuperJerk 0]

So if any Jedi kills a Sith does that mean the turn to the darkside?

Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul without any ill effects.

 

You turn to the dark side if you give into your anger and let it control your actions.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Yeah, you turn to the dark side if you give into your hatred. Obi-Wan against Maul was just acting in self-defense.

 

Yeah, true fan my ass. Anyone who's casually gone to see any of the films in theaters or owns them at home knows that any plan with Palpatine involved means him being on top at the end of the plan. That's why he's the real villain of the saga. He knows Vader will defend him if Luke attacks him in the throne room, and from there Luke can kill Vader and take his place as the new apprentice. Palpatine gets Anakin to do the very same thing to Dooku, that being to off the previous apprentice and taking their place.

 

You are right about the stuff concerning the Emperor's actions. Actually, Luke does try to cut him down, but as you said Vader defends him. And even if he didn't, the Emperor would probably just zap him.

 

However, even though the Emperor is quite clearly the puppetmaster, I feel that Vader is the true villain of the series. Most of the main plotlines revolve around him. Palpatine's like Blofeld in Thunderball. Sure he's the boss, but the main villain is Largo.

 

He's also the real might of the Empire. It is doubtful that the Emperor would be able to gain as much power as he does without him (at least until Luke comes into the picture), whereas if Vader was in Palpatine's place, things probably wouldn't change a whole lot. And Vader was definitely interested in getting Luke to join him and off Palpatine, so the Emperor was not the only one doing scheming. Although Palpatine comes closer to turning Luke than Vader does, they both end up failing.

 

Although arguments that Palpatine is the main villain are certainly a lot more convincing than the ones that try to claim that Vader is the main hero.

[starvenger 0]

EU is far from canon and is almost nothing but retarded shit that happens when fantasy authors get a hold of science fiction. Fuck the EU.

Yeah, must be why Lucas took the Sith mythology from the EU. And from Kevin J Anderson, of all people.

 

Anyways, I'd agree that there is a lot of shitty EU stuff, but when it's good, it's damn good.

[Guest CronoT]

EU is far from canon and is almost nothing but retarded shit that happens when fantasy authors get a hold of science fiction. Fuck the EU.

Yeah, must be why Lucas took the Sith mythology from the EU. And from Kevin J Anderson, of all people.

 

Anyways, I'd agree that there is a lot of shitty EU stuff, but when it's good, it's damn good.

Like the Thrawn Trilogy and Thrawn Duology. The X-Wing series is good, too.

[Art Sandusky 0]

Were Vader in Palpatine's place, he wouldn't start a real Empire, but he'd certainly run a much tighter ship. All through the saga he talks about wanting order and people to just do what they're supposed to do. Later on he kills people for not doing their job, but that's what happens when you turn evil and all. You can hear the AOTC talk involving the "somebody should make them [politicians coming to decisions]" concept as Vader proposes Luke join him so they can "bring order to the galaxy." Anakin/Vader just wants super efficient government, doesn't matter the form.

[Art Sandusky 0]

EU is far from canon and is almost nothing but retarded shit that happens when fantasy authors get a hold of science fiction. Fuck the EU.

Yeah, must be why Lucas took the Sith mythology from the EU. And from Kevin J Anderson, of all people.

 

Anyways, I'd agree that there is a lot of shitty EU stuff, but when it's good, it's damn good.

The only part of the EU that has ever interested me slightly beyond "that was... something" after reading it were the Jedi Academy Trilogy and Darksaber. Admiral Daala was the shit. Thrawn is severely overrated.

 

And if your fanboys came up with something in their writings that was actually useable, wouldn't you snap it up? Geez, less work for you.

 

I should add here that I don't trust anyone else to ever put together a Star Wars film that isn't named George Lucas. Help the writing and direction with other people, whatever. Just make sure the story's coming from him.

[Black Lushus 0]

okay so in the previews, we see Palpatine discussing the nature of the dark side to Anakin...do you think he's revealed himself to Anakin at this point or does he just kinda say it as if he knows about the force from an outsider's perspective? I'm curious to see the exact point when Anakin finds out Palpatine is the Sith Master...

[Kaertos 0]

Just a couple of things that occured to me as I was reading the thread...

 

- The Extended Universe overall is a waste of time while trying to determine anything about the Jedi or the Force. In my expierience with the EU, the authors will go to incredible lengths to explain why one of the heroes can do something without going over to the dark side or they will find ways to make the Jedi less formidable so they can put them in jeopardy.

 

- Bringing balance to the Force has nothing to do with the number of Jedi or Sith in the galaxy. The Force, by it's very nature, is balanced. Remember, to use the Force you don't have to be happy and full of hope, you have to be "Calm, at peace, passive". The dark side comes about when the Force is used in anger or hatred or fear. The existance of anyone using the dark side and causing it to grow in power will by definition unbalance the Force.

 

- One of the great weaknesses of the Dark Side is that is seductive. It tells you what you want to hear. Palpatine wanted to think that he was infallible (and considering his track record up to that point, why shouldn't he?) and that his master plan to replace Vader with his (more powerful) son, Luke, would go off without a hitch.

[starvenger 0]

Just a couple of things that occured to me as I was reading the thread...

 

- The Extended Universe overall is a waste of time while trying to determine anything about the Jedi or the Force. In my expierience with the EU, the authors will go to incredible lengths to explain why one of the heroes can do something without going over to the dark side or they will find ways to make the Jedi less formidable so they can put them in jeopardy.

I'd agree with that. But of course, a writer has a 300 page novel to write, and can do these things, whereas Lucas can (try to) describe through the visual medium. I'd also say that Lucas has deliberately left the Dark Side as open to interpretation, so while it's one thing to one author, it's something else to another.

 

- One of the great weaknesses of the Dark Side is that is seductive.  It tells you what you want to hear.  Palpatine wanted to think that he was infallible (and considering his track record up to that point, why shouldn't he?) and that his master plan to replace Vader with his (more powerful) son, Luke, would go off without a hitch.

Hubris is a common theme in mythology, and in real life as well, so attributing that to the Dark Side may not be entirely correct. It might be more accurate to say that the Dark Side enhanced Palpatine's sense of infalliability. But, of course, see the previous point.

 

The only part of the EU that has ever interested me slightly beyond "that was... something" after reading it were the Jedi Academy Trilogy and Darksaber. Admiral Daala was the shit. Thrawn is severely overrated.

Seriously? Must be Anderson's obsession with Death Stars.

 

And if your fanboys came up with something in their writings that was actually useable, wouldn't you snap it up? Geez, less work for you.

Hmm, about the only author that I'd say could truly be called a "fanboy" is Aaron Allston.

 

I should add here that I don't trust anyone else to ever put together a Star Wars film that isn't named George Lucas. Help the writing and direction with other people, whatever. Just make sure the story's coming from him.

I would agree. Love him or hate him, Lucas is the guy that drives the Star Wars empire, and it wouldn't be Star Wars without him.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Were Vader in Palpatine's place, he wouldn't start a real Empire, but he'd certainly run a much tighter ship. All through the saga he talks about wanting order and people to just do what they're supposed to do. Later on he kills people for not doing their job, but that's what happens when you turn evil and all.

 

I mean in the Original Trilogy. Palpatine's involvment is vital in the creation of the Emprire, but his last real important act is disbanding the Senate in Episode IV. From that point on Palpatine really declines in importance, and with the structure of the Empire all set up by then, Vader could easily rule as Emperor. Vader didn't have the ambition to create the Empire, but he would have no problem taking Palpatine's place later on in ESB & ROTJ.

 

- Bringing balance to the Force has nothing to do with the number of Jedi or Sith in the galaxy. The Force, by it's very nature, is balanced. Remember, to use the Force you don't have to be happy and full of hope, you have to be "Calm, at peace, passive". The dark side comes about when the Force is used in anger or hatred or fear. The existance of anyone using the dark side and causing it to grow in power will by definition unbalance the Force.

 

Yes. This is what I am arguing. And it is Luke that finally eliminates the Sith. Eliminating the Sith and starting a new Jedi Order is a bigger deal than purging all but a handful of Jedi. If the Empire was around for hundreds of years, I would argue the opposite. But it falls and the Jedi return to power within the next generation, so Vader obviously didn't have any long lasting impact.

[Black Lushus 0]

hey Kahran...not to step on your toes...but why don't you just put all these Star Wars topics into one thread or does it make more sense to have this many? It just seems like we start a thread about one specific topic and it just turns into a general discussion thread in the end...

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

hey Kahran...not to step on your toes...but why don't you just put all these Star Wars topics into one thread or does it make more sense to have this many? It just seems like we start a thread about one specific topic and it just turns into a general discussion thread in the end...

There are only two on the front page, so it is fine for now. And this thread is mainly for discussion on the Luke/Vader issue.

 

If the board becomes cluttered with them, I might have to, but it until then I see no problem with leaving things the way they are.

[Black Lushus 0]

just curious, no biggie....thought i'd ask!

[Kaertos 0]

I'd agree with that. But of course, a writer has a 300 page novel to write, and can do these things, whereas Lucas can (try to) describe through the visual medium. I'd also say that Lucas has deliberately left the Dark Side as open to interpretation, so while it's one thing to one author, it's something else to another.

 

Starvenger, those are very good points, and I cannot disagree with them. I guess it is more accurate to say that I don't agree with some of the assumptions the writers have made regarding how the Force works. Just doesn't feel, well, mythic to me in the EU stuff I have read. Which, addmittedly, is very little. I gave up after the Jedi Academy Trilogy. It made my soul hurt.

 

Hubris is a common theme in mythology, and in real life as well, so attributing that to the Dark Side may not be entirely correct. It might be more accurate to say that the Dark Side enhanced Palpatine's sense of infalliability. But, of course, see the previous point.

 

That was, in fact, the point I was trying to make. Thank you for clarifying it.

 

And it is Luke that finally eliminates the Sith.

 

Well, yes and no. In the frustrating world of prophesy, it can be viewed either way. Sure, Luke brought Vader back from the Dark Side thus causing the end of the Sith and, presumably, the end of the influence of the Dark Side, but it was Vader (the chosen one) who did what was thought nigh impossible, coming back from the Dark Side and killing the Master of the Sith, Palpatine.

 

I have to say that, overall, this is the most civilized Star Wars thread I've run into in a while. Usually by this point they degenerate into "TPM droolz & Ewoks suxxors" kind of stuff.

[Black Lushus 0]

TPM always felt like a Star Wars movie to me whereas ATOC did not...please don't ask me to explain...

[starvenger 0]

I guess it is more accurate to say that I don't agree with some of the assumptions the writers have made regarding how the Force works. Just doesn't feel, well, mythic to me in the EU stuff I have read. Which, addmittedly, is very little. I gave up after the Jedi Academy Trilogy. It made my soul hurt.

Kevin J Anderson seems to be the Chuck Austen of the Star Wars Universe. He's got some good stuff - again, the entire Sith mythology - but he's really spotty with everything else.

 

I have to say that, overall, this is the most civilized Star Wars thread I've run into in a while.  Usually by this point they degenerate into "TPM droolz & Ewoks suxxors" kind of stuff.

I think we save that for the wrestling forums...

[Guest Beingz0wningj00]

HHH beingz holdingz PALPATINE DOWnz0rz!!

 

 

Death Star that motherfucker!

[Vern Gagne 0]

So if any Jedi kills a Sith does that mean the turn to the darkside?

Obi-Wan killed Darth Maul without any ill effects.

 

You turn to the dark side if you give into your anger and let it control your actions.

Wouldn't Luke of been doing the same thing? Defending himself, from Vader?

[Guest Beingz0wningj00]

Luke was damn near close to the Dark side... That was the whole build up to the end of Jedi... It was even why the Emporer was applauding. However he was able to control his emotions... possibly after seeing his fate from the cave of Dagobah... but it worked out for him...

 

 

Like they also said... Obi Wan killed Darth Maul in self defense... heck... even Mace Windu cut off Jango Fett's head(I know he wasn;t a Sith, but still)

[Modern Man's Hustle 0]

Luke was damn near close to the Dark side... That was the whole build up to the end of Jedi... It was even why the Emporer was applauding. However he was able to control his emotions...

Exactly - it's also a nice twist because Palpatine clapping, encouraging Luke to come to the Dark Side, is the exact same thing that's going to happen in Revenge of the Sith. Palpatine encourages Anakin to forsake the Jedi code and give into his anger, which ushers in an era of Sith dominance. If he could have turned Luke as well, there would have been no stopping the power of the Dark Side.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

Actually it is Vader that almost pushes Luke over the edge by bringing Leia into it, although it didn't have the effect that he was expecting. Luke ended up lashing out against his father instead of Palpatine.

[Guest Beingz0wningj00]

"Actually it is Vader that almost pushes Luke over the edge by bringing Leia into it"

 

 

That's a very good point... Luke clearly had grown to care about her far more then any in the series... although Chewie and Han came to a very close second, along with them droids... Vader taunting him... heck even freezing Han in carbonite and selling him to Jabba really had to trigger something with Luke.

[Kahran Ramsus 0]

"Actually it is Vader that almost pushes Luke over the edge by bringing Leia into it"

 

 

That's a very good point... Luke clearly had grown to care about her far more then any in the series... although Chewie and Han came to a very close second, along with them droids... Vader taunting him... heck even freezing Han in carbonite and selling him to Jabba really had to trigger something with Luke.

He does care about them, because torturing them is how Vader draws Luke to Bespin in the first place. He knew that Luke would sense it and come after him.

 

But turning a loved one evil is even worse than killing them. I don't think Vader would have gotten the quite same reaction if he simply said that he would kill his sister. I also think that Vader severly underestimated the effect of that statement would have on Luke, given that he ended up being caught by surprise when Luke attacked him.

 

It is also easier to protect someone's life than it is to guide their will.

[Art Sandusky 0]

That final rage-filled attack by Luke is the most dramatic bit of actual lightsaber fighting in the whole saga. I mean, lightsaber fights are supposed to be cool and stuff, but you really felt what was really going on. I mean, Luke's just swinging madly at Vader, not even giving a shit about form or any of that. He's THAT CLOSE to turning.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

Wouldn't Luke of been doing the same thing? Defending himself, from Vader?

 

I don't think it quite counts as defending yourself if you went to go see the guy, then he told you to kill him.

 

At least, I think Vader told Luke to kill him...I know Palpatine did...but in any event, I think the circumstances for the final bits with Luke and Vader were different then they would have been if they met on a battlefield or something.