Would you put McGwire in the Hall now?

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Been hearing several voters say they would NOT vote for McGwire and even used the "Without steriods he is no better than Dave Kingman" type of arguments

 

Which is ironic considering commentators have said the reason McGwire said what he said at the hearing was so he could "protect" his legacy, so instead he made it worse

 

Steve

[Vern Gagne 0]

He should be, but I've never thought McGwire was deserving to be a 1st ballot HOFamer.

[Guest LooneyTune]

McGwire will either be one of those guys that squeak in by a small percentage, or don't get voted in at all IMO. He was a very exceptional player, but he wasn't HoF caliber to me except for (obvious stats here).

[HarleyQuinn 0]

I agree with LooneyTune in that he'll probably squeak in. He had a career .263/.394./.588 line and aside from the SLG, there are a number of 1B that have better BA and OBP with similar SLG. McGwire was a solid fielding 1B but never did much in the field to stand out from his peers.

[MikeJordan23 0]

He should be, but I've never thought McGwire was deserving to be a 1st ballot HOFamer.

What reasoning do you have behind this?

[Guest Shadow]

likely because he only jacked Home Runs and nothing else really. That and the fact in order to be a first ballot he goes in with two other impecable distinguished baseball players in Ripken and Gywnn.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The argument that McGwire did nothing but hit home runs is quite silly. McGwire was an extremely disciplined hitter with a high OBP. Besides hitting home runs, he was a very tough out. His OPS is 11th All-Time. I do not know to what extent steroids affected McGwire's performance, if in fact he did take them. In the absense of any proof, I cannot see any overwhelming reason to keep McGwire out of the Hall. Even assuming McGwire took steroids, I would still vote him in.

[The Czech Republic 0]

Thanks for bringing those stats up, Al. However I think Shadow is right: Tony Gwynn might edge him out for the second spot, and there's no way he gets in ahead of Cal Ripken Jr.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

Mark McGwire is an embarassment to baseball who didn't do the right thing when at the hearings. He's a joke. If he gets in, fine. But his stats MEAN NOTHING. He is a cheater. They don't count in my, and many other eyes.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Mark McGwire is an embarassment to baseball who didn't do the right thing when at the hearings. He's a joke. If he gets in, fine. But his stats MEAN NOTHING. He is a cheater. They don't count in my, and many other eyes.

What was the right thing to do? If he admits to taking steroids, then he vindicates your opinion that he is a cheater.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Thanks for bringing those stats up, Al. However I think Shadow is right: Tony Gwynn might edge him out for the second spot, and there's no way he gets in ahead of Cal Ripken Jr.

I think Gwynn and Ripken are more qualified myself. But the voters get ten spots on their ballots, and I don't see the presence of two more qualified candidates affecting McGwire's candidacy. We are still two years away, and alot can change over this time period.

[iggymcfly 0]

If I was in charge of the Hall of Fame, I would probably put McGwire in eventually, but not until Pete Rose had been in the Hall for at least 20 years, because what he did wasn't anywhere near as bad as what McGwire's done.

 

(And proof or not, McGwire did take steroids. We all know it. The lack of "proof" didn't stop Pete Rose from getting kept out, did it?)

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

The argument that McGwire did nothing but hit home runs is quite silly. McGwire was an extremely disciplined hitter with a high OBP. Besides hitting home runs, he was a very tough out. His OPS is 11th All-Time. I do not know to what extent steroids affected McGwire's performance, if in fact he did take them. In the absense of any proof, I cannot see any overwhelming reason to keep McGwire out of the Hall. Even assuming McGwire took steroids, I would still vote him in.

There was information report from the FBI detaling what McGwire used. Pretty much end of story

 

Steve

[Bored 0]

Wrong.

 

NEW YORK -- Mark McGwire's name was mentioned several times during a federal steroids investigation in the early 1990s, but he was not the target of the probe nor was any evidence collected against him, the Daily News reported Sunday.

Two dealers caught in the federal investigation told the Daily News that a California man named Curtis Wenzlaff gave Canseco and McGwire illegal anabolic steroids.

Again it's the word of another less than credible source, a rat drug dealer, who alledges he gave McGwire steriods. It's disgusting the way ESPN and the media pretty much portrayed this as 100% factual evidence that McGwire took steroids.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

If I was in charge of the Hall of Fame, I would probably put McGwire in eventually, but not until Pete Rose had been in the Hall for at least 20 years, because what he did wasn't anywhere near as bad as what McGwire's done.

 

(And proof or not, McGwire did take steroids. We all know it. The lack of "proof" didn't stop Pete Rose from getting kept out, did it?)

What Rose did was worse. Rose associated with gamblers, and gambled on baseball games. This undermines the integrity of the game. Cheating is discouraged, but McGwire did not break baseball's rules, and at the core, he was still trying to win.

[iggymcfly 0]

You act like Pete Rose bet against the Reds or something. Who cares if he gambled on some American League game that had nothing to do with him, or even if he bet on his own team to win. It had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome of any of the games.

 

And as for "associated with gamblers", what in the hell is that supposed to mean? I gamble sometimes. Does that make "associating" with me a crime? McGwire used illegal substances to affect the outcome of baseball games, and he did break the rules as Faye Vincent outlawed the use of steroids in 1992. Pete Rose may have broken a rule, but its effect and its scope were nothing compared to what McGwire did. Furthermore, it did not contribute to any of his accomplishments whatsoever, whereas McGwire's primary achievement, (the 70 HR season) would never have happened without steroids.

 

The more I think about it, I wouldn't mind keeping all the juicers out of the hall.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

Wrong.

 

NEW YORK -- Mark McGwire's name was mentioned several times during a federal steroids investigation in the early 1990s, but he was not the target of the probe nor was any evidence collected against him, the Daily News reported Sunday.

Two dealers caught in the federal investigation told the Daily News that a California man named Curtis Wenzlaff gave Canseco and McGwire illegal anabolic steroids.

Again it's the word of another less than credible source, a rat drug dealer, who alledges he gave McGwire steriods. It's disgusting the way ESPN and the media pretty much portrayed this as 100% factual evidence that McGwire took steroids.

Then where did the schedule of what McGwire took come from?

 

And why are you now discounting everything Canseco said in his book? I am still waiting for a law suit to be filed and the only thing I've heard is Palmerio "maybe" filing

 

McGwire took steriods, end of discussion

[NoCalMike 0]

The problem is that unless there is 100% non-arguable proof someone did Steroids, then to keep them out of the HOF, based on what you think they might have taken, means that pretty much you have to keep out everyone that you think might have taken something.

 

I mean McGwire did hit 49 HRs as a skinny lil' rook, and he was a gold glove first baseman, and it can be argued that had injuries not taken over his mid-late career, he might have broken Aaron's record a couple of years ago.

[Steve J. Rogers 0]

The argument that McGwire did nothing but hit home runs is quite silly. McGwire was an extremely disciplined hitter with a high OBP. Besides hitting home runs, he was a very tough out. His OPS is 11th All-Time.

Unfortunatly most of the voters I've heard do not care about OPS or even OBS and will just look at McGwire as a slow, plodding, terrible fielder who basically was a glorified Cecil Fielder when it comes down to it.

 

Granted thats here in New York, but they basically are "Go with what my eyes tell me" types and will subtract an awfull lot of homers off McGwire's record to make it seem that he is no better than the aforementioned Kingman and Fielder

 

By the way, what everyone forgets when they bring up the fact that McGwire's homerun totals "bump up obscenley late in his career" as a means for not voting him in the HOF is that he was pretty much on the DL for most of the early 1990's and even prior to his spurt did have one of the top three HR/AB ratios in the game's history. So technically we are not talking about Barry Bonds like bumps in production

 

Steve

[2GOLD 0]

I think Woody and a few others have said it best

If you want to remove everyone who ever cheated during baseball, then you might as well disband the entire Hall of Fame. You have lots of pitchers in the Hall famous for using illegal pitches. You've got a couple in there caught on more than one occassion using illegal bats to improve their hitting as well. If you want to convict people who you can't even 100% prove did anything, then just disband the Hall.

[Vern Gagne 0]

He should be, but I've never thought McGwire was deserving to be a 1st ballot HOFamer.

What reasoning do you have behind this?

He didn't have enough peak years, and was overall too one dimensional.

[Guest Brian]

I think Woody and a few others have said it best

If you want to remove everyone who ever cheated during baseball, then you might as well disband the entire Hall of Fame. You have lots of pitchers in the Hall famous for using illegal pitches. You've got a couple in there caught on more than one occassion using illegal bats to improve their hitting as well. If you want to convict people who you can't even 100% prove did anything, then just disband the Hall.

That doesn't even account for the use of amphetamines, which should be looked at on the same level as steroids.

[Vyce 0]

If I was in charge of the Hall of Fame, I would probably put McGwire in eventually, but not until Pete Rose had been in the Hall for at least 20 years, because what he did wasn't anywhere near as bad as what McGwire's done.

 

(And proof or not, McGwire did take steroids. We all know it. The lack of "proof" didn't stop Pete Rose from getting kept out, did it?)

What Rose did was worse. Rose associated with gamblers, and gambled on baseball games. This undermines the integrity of the game. Cheating is discouraged, but McGwire did not break baseball's rules, and at the core, he was still trying to win.

Are you shitting me?

 

Integrity of the game? That's hilarious. MLB has no room to bitch: They've known about the steroid abuse for years (or, at BEST, they've had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy going on) - they just don't fucking care. That was the best part about the hearings of the past week, it helped to really emphasize the point that MLB baseball did absolutely NOTHING to combat steroids in the game until the pressure on them to do so was astronomical, and even then they managed to fuck that up by giving the most pussy punishments they could conceive. And as a result of all of their bullshit, they've turned the entire sport into a fucking joke.

 

You cannot sit there and tell me that what Pete Rose did in any way, shape or form has hurt the industry more than what the industry itself has done to itself by not giving a flying fuck that a sizable number of their players (possibly even a MAJORITY) have been juicing over the years.

 

Man. If Rose had some REAL balls, the next time a reporter asked him about being in the Hall of Fame, he should calmly point out the incredible hubris of MLB keeping him out of the HoF while being completely unable - and unwilling - to get their own shit together.

[UseTheSledgehammerUh 0]

McGwire "doing the right thing", admitting his guilt, and telling the truth wouldn't "vindicate him". It would just make him a cheater who tells the truth. Now he's just a lying cheater. No Hall for him if the sport has any merit.

[Guest HungryJack]

Which we all know it DOESN'T. So McGwire gets in. I applaud that.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

If I was in charge of the Hall of Fame, I would probably put McGwire in eventually, but not until Pete Rose had been in the Hall for at least 20 years, because what he did wasn't anywhere near as bad as what McGwire's done.

 

(And proof or not, McGwire did take steroids. We all know it. The lack of "proof" didn't stop Pete Rose from getting kept out, did it?)

What Rose did was worse. Rose associated with gamblers, and gambled on baseball games. This undermines the integrity of the game. Cheating is discouraged, but McGwire did not break baseball's rules, and at the core, he was still trying to win.

Are you shitting me?

 

Integrity of the game? That's hilarious. MLB has no room to bitch: They've known about the steroid abuse for years (or, at BEST, they've had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy going on) - they just don't fucking care. That was the best part about the hearings of the past week, it helped to really emphasize the point that MLB baseball did absolutely NOTHING to combat steroids in the game until the pressure on them to do so was astronomical, and even then they managed to fuck that up by giving the most pussy punishments they could conceive. And as a result of all of their bullshit, they've turned the entire sport into a fucking joke.

 

You cannot sit there and tell me that what Pete Rose did in any way, shape or form has hurt the industry more than what the industry itself has done to itself by not giving a flying fuck that a sizable number of their players (possibly even a MAJORITY) have been juicing over the years.

 

Man. If Rose had some REAL balls, the next time a reporter asked him about being in the Hall of Fame, he should calmly point out the incredible hubris of MLB keeping him out of the HoF while being completely unable - and unwilling - to get their own shit together.

Pete Rose did not hurt baseball, because baseball nipped it in the bud, before it could become a serious problem. The survival of baseball is dependant on the concept that what the fans are watching is a legitimate athletic contest. When a player or manager gambles on baseball, he compromises his position inside the game. Think about it. A player or manager falls into deep debt with a bookie. What is the easiest way to pull his ass out of the fire? Now you have a serious problem.

 

Steroid use, while a problem, is not the eath-shattering dillema that the media pretends it is. In all the outrage I have heard over the last month, 90% of it deals with baseball's sacred records, while the other 10% deals with various "think of the children" arguments. No one I have heard has suggested that championships have been stolen due to steroid use. That is the real integrity of the game, and apparently, no one thinks that is a big deal.

 

And baseball first developed a steroid policy in 2002, before the pressure became astronomical.

[Guest PlatinumBoy]

Just to play the other side, since we don't 100 percent know McGwire took roids--I honestly do think someone could get that physique by working out extremely hardcore and taking what McGwire took that was legal--the HGH stuff and Creatine, etc. etc.

 

Not everyone who is remotely jacked takes steroids, which nowadays everyone is going to think. I know guys who I work out with who while they don't look like McGwire, look very, very, very huge and ripped and have never roided in their life. Wasn't McGwire famous for working out on the offseason harder than almost anyone else in the early-mid 90's?

 

Did he take roids? Possibly... but it honestly isn't 100 percent yet. As I said above, HGH and other substances along with having the time to train and your own horde of trainers and nutrition folks will do wonders for someone. Not everyone who is jacked is on roids, some just worked their asses off--though of course even with steroids you still have to work super hard in the weight room.

[Dr. Tom 0]

I'd vote him in, but not very enthusiastically. His OBP, OPS, and HR numbers are very nice, but I'm troubled by the fact that he hit .201 over the course of a full season, and had three straight years where his BA was the pits. The steroid argument doesn't really enter into it, since I think it's very overhyped, and the DC Dog and Pony Show of last week is just more proof of that.

[The Robfather 0]

All the cheaters should be banned from Baseball, so no, I don't think Big Juicing Mac should be let in the HoF.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

All the cheaters should be banned from Baseball, so no, I don't think Big Juicing Mac should be let in the HoF.

So we should kick Babe Ruth out of the Hall for using a corked bat?