What are your thoughts on Bret/HBK Ironman?

[JoeDirt 0]

I've seen VERY varied opinions on this match (which admittedly I haven't seen in quite some time and don't have on hand right now). I've heard everything from "Match of the Decade" to "horrible match" with criticisms of bad psychology and Bret dogging it because he didn't care.

 

So what are your thoughts on the match? How do you rate it and place it among other prominent ironman matches?

[Guest fanofcoils]

I thought it sucked with the endless pointless slow stuff. Most fans want to see action, not holds (I mean action over technical stuff, holds, which some fans don't mind or enjoy as part of wrestling). Also it should have had more than 1 fall in 60+ minutes, wasn't realistic when you think back on it. Interesting how they had to put a gimmick on the world title match at Wrestlemania.

[Guest Shadow]

I find it funny that people accuse bret of dogging for not caring about this match and yet Bret himself has gone on public record saying this was his favorite match of his career. Same with Shawn.

 

For two guys who hate each other with severe bitter disdain; it's rather interesting they are adament in their belief that; their match with each other were the best they ever when it's argueable each men have at least 10 matches better then that.

[JoeDirt 0]

I find it funny that people accuse bret of dogging for not caring about this match and yet Bret himself has gone on public record saying this was his favorite match of his career. Same with Shawn.

 

For two guys who hate each other with severe bitter disdain; it's rather interesting they are adament in their belief that; their match with each other were the best they ever when it's argueable each men have at least 10 matches better then that.

I thought Bret said his match with Bulldog at Summerslam was his best ever? (Didn't he even say it was the best match by anyone ever? Or am I imagining things?)

[Si82 0]

When I first saw the match is bored the shit out of me. But, upon more viewings I've found it to be an entertaining match. I mean, it's a good match but it certainly isn't great. It could have benefited from having more action in the match than rest-holds.

 

That being said, I still think that iron man matches that have taken place in WWE since (Triple H/Rock and Lesnar/Angle) have been much better than the Bret/HBK one.

[MikeJordan23 0]

Boring for the first 30 minutes then good for 31 minutes.

[Youth N Asia 0]

I didn't like it. I watched it again a few months ago and still didn't care for it. I'm not asking for a million falls, but the Brock/Kurt and Rocky/Hunter matches showed you can move a little faster without burning out. I think Shawn and Bret held back more than they had to.

[Aero 0]

I like the match alot, but the beginning is tedious to watch at points. The last 20 minutes or so are just great. If I could change it, though, I would definitely have made the match just a normal single match that goes about 30 minutes. The only other Iron Man matches I've seen are HHH-Rock and Angle-Brock. I like HHH-Rock MUCH more, but I haven't seen Angle-Brock since it was on TV with commericals, so I can't really count that.

[Guest LooneyTune]

Boring, useless matwork (a.k.a chinlocks and wristlocks) that is no sold by both men for the first 25-30 minutes.

 

The rest is both men refusing to put the other over, resulting in a 0-0 finish going into overtime. The last 15-20 minutes was fine when ignoring the selfish nature of both men, but no way in hell does it deserve **** ratings.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I thought Bret said his match with Bulldog at Summerslam was his best ever? (Didn't he even say it was the best match by anyone ever? Or am I imagining things?)

I know he said it was a match he was very proud of, because Davey Boy forgot everything they'd laid out almost right away, and Bret had to call everything on the fly.

[Guest frowned]

I remember really liking it when it was first on, it was my two favourite wrestlers at the time going head to head for an hour and as far as I was concerned it wasn't going to get better than that.

 

More recent viewings however, tell me that it was actually quite boring. The beginning restholds that should have been sold as at least somewhat offensive were basically there for Shawn to say "look - I'm a scientific wrestler too!" and to somehow psyche-out Bret. It was like they were laying out the match and said "so how do we fill the first half of the match?", it was so meaningless.

 

It ended up being, in hindsight, one of my most disappointing Hart matches.

[spman 0]

I've always seen it as a 60 minute showcase of restholds being used to transition from one spot to another, and not continuously so either.

[Slayer 0]

RestholdMania

 

'Nuff said

[4hartthreat 0]

Ah, I love when this topic comes up, and it always does right about now, Mania time.

 

The Ironman match is a classic. My favorite match.

 

 

The rest hold thing is what gets me the most, well that and the no falls thing. They were going an hour! Going into the match they knew they were going an hour. So of course they were going to use rest holds to not only conserve their own energy, but also to wear down the other guy. And the no falls thing was one of the BEST things about the match. It was the main event of WM, the biggest show of the year. The title meant everything to Bret, it was his life. It was Shawn's dream to win it and to do so he had to go through Bret. So that belt meant so much to both guys, and they both didn't want to lose the first fall because it meant they'd be playing catch up from there. So both guys fought their asses off to not lose that first and as even the announcers constantly pointed out crucial fall. Also, unlike just about any other match in WWF/E history, they went out of their way to show how hard Bret and Shawn were training for this match. With all of this in mind, it should be more than believeable that they could go that long without a fall.

 

The one thing I do agree with most on is the overtime. I don't think it made any sense and still don't like that it happened. But that being said it didn't take away from the match, in fact it kind of added to it. Going back to the how much the title meant to both guys thing, it took two superkicks to keep Bret down, because he did not want to lose his title on the biggest show of the year.

 

 

How so many people can shit on this match then turn around and praise that crapfest that was the Rock-HHH ironman match is beyond me....

[chaosrage 0]

Not only Match of the Decade, but I agree with Shawn, Bret, Angle, etc.. and say it's the greatest match I've ever seen. It's one of the few matches that looks completely real from start to finish. Shawn and Bret actually wrestled it like it was a 60 minute match and paced themselves to wrestle an hour, unlike HHH and Rock who just wrestled an ordinary 20-30 minute match, threw in 20 minutes of brawling and added 5 minute long sleeper holds.

[Guest LooneyTune]

I really don't know what Bret is smoking... I can probably throw out 10 matches that were lightyears better than this. Either he is a good actor (he seriously looked like he was dogging it for the 1st half) or his mind isn't what it used to be.

 

If we were to judge the final half hour-ish, it was great, but the transition from resting to beating each other up was undetectable, and just made me think "Oh, so they finally stopped lying on the mat?".

[Epic Reine 0]

I think it's just an average match. Not anything too special while not anything to boring.

[JoeDirt 0]

It's really crazy how varied the opinion on this match is. There aren't many matches which have so many completely different viewpoints.

[tbondrage99 0]

I thought it was a pretty good match but I still think that there should of been more then one pin the entire match since that was pretty much the matches gimmick.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

In a different arena, with a different audience and a different announcing team, it would have come across a lot better. As it is, the match bored most of the live crowd senseless, with at least a third of them leaving long before the match had finished, and you had an announcing team of Jerry Lawler and Vince McMahon who were totally clueless on getting over the strategy and the matwork.

[Gary Floyd 0]

It's a great match, I'll tell ya that much. Granted, it's not one of the greatest (not even in the top 10, IMO) but it's still a great match

[Guest LooneyTune]

In a different arena, with a different audience and a different announcing team, it would have come across a lot better. As it is, the match bored most of the live crowd senseless, with at least a third of them leaving long before the match had finished, and you had an announcing team of Jerry Lawler and Vince McMahon who were totally clueless on getting over the strategy and the matwork.

I forgot about that... the Arrowhead Pond got two Wrestlemanias in a span of 4 years, and both shows were pretty boring because the crowds were sitting on their hands the majority of both of them.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

In some ways, Bret v Shawn at WM XII was like Benoit v Malenko at Hog Wild in 1996. You had what was, technically, a great match, but you had a crowd that didn't really care about the match, an announcing team that couldn't or wouldn't get the match over, and a finish that left a lot of people disappointed and let down.

[4hartthreat 0]

In some ways, Bret v Shawn at WM XII was like Benoit v Malenko at Hog Wild in 1996. You had what was, technically, a great match, but you had a crowd that didn't really care about the match, an announcing team that couldn't or wouldn't get the match over, and a finish that left a lot of people disappointed and let down.

I love the comparison. The Hog Wild match is another one of my favorites. I refuse to let some stupid fans and/or bikers and inept announce teams ruin great matches.

[Guest Shadow]

You think the dead crowd had to do with the fans or rather because they knew it would be sixty minutes and could tell about 20 minutes into it, that it was going to come down to a single fall or was it just a bad crowd?

 

I thought they were a decent crowd at 16. At least they were hot for the Main event.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

From live reports, fans started getting restless about 6 minutes in, but those fans were way at the back. It appears that as the match went on, and with no falls taken, more and more fans realised that there would be no falls at all, and at about the half way mark is when people started leaving. I think a couple of falls in the body of the match would have helped the crowd heat a little, but I think the crowd itself just weren't interested in a 60 minute technical match. They popped huge for the return of the Ultimate Warrior, but the moment the bell rang for his match there was silence. It seemed to be crowd there more for the entertainment than the wrestling.

[Guest LooneyTune]

I was watching the IC/Euro three-way the other day, and for a good portion of the match, the crowd is barely reacting to anything. The funny thing about it is this was probably the best wrestling match of the night, and the fans didn't care.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

It's really crazy how varied the opinion on this match is. There aren't many matches which have so many completely different viewpoints.

The problem with this match is you run into a lot of people who think length equals quality and praise the match for that aspect.

 

I think it was ***-***1/2 but it's a horribly boring match. Especially when you get into other matches that went an hour. The unwillingness of Bret and Shawn to give each other falls was the biggest fault of the match.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I haven't watched it since watching it live, but I remember being bored silly and giving it **1/4. I was watching it with a family member who was into wrestling, but who was more of a casual fan, and they were bored silly as well.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I haven't watched it for a long time and I can never justify giving it another hour of my life to get a more recent evaluation. I think it'd drop even more now that I've seen a lot of the 60 minute Triple Crown matches and Flair/Steamboat 2/3 falls.