Guest MikeSC Report post Posted April 2, 2005 You live in Canada. Nobody takes you seriously anyway. -=Mike That was uncalled for. His opinions are as valid as the next man's. The fact that you brought up his nationality undid the fact that you can argue better than he can. Dickhead. So was the overwhelming condescending attitude of that jackass. Maybe if the U.S had taken the Canadian compromise at the U.N seriously instead of just brushing it off, there wouldn't be the mess that we see now. You mean democracy formenting in the Middle East? That IS a mess. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianGuitarist 0 Report post Posted April 2, 2005 I was refering to the 1500 dead American soldiers and estimated 10,000 Iraqi civilians. Oh yes, I nearly forgot the fires set to oil pipelines, contractors hung and mutilated, construction workers beheaded, charity workers kidnapped and killed. Yep, let freedom ring! Yes, I know, I know. Iraqi insurgents did all of that. There wouldn't be all those aforementioned contractors and charity workers there if the States hadn't gone to war and destroyed the whole god damned country anyway. Hey, I've lost everything I own, I have no lower half to my body, and all my family's dead, but at least I can vote for some guy that I'm told to by the people responsible for my missing legs and deceased brothers and sisters. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Edwin MacPhisto 0 Report post Posted April 2, 2005 For one, I think they say that because if they said they didn't support the troops, they'd lose votes or the respect of others, depending upon their position in life. Those are some awfully big assumptions you're making. I tend to think that my explanation makes more sense, as I'll illustrate throughout this post. Secondly, if some troops don't believe in the war, then by the liberal logic they shouldn't fight in it. They should go AWOL and act upon their convictions. How can you support someone doing a job the duty of which you disagree with? This is my big problem with your argument. You assume that people who don't support the war follow a "liberal logic," which you have yet to explain. What is this "liberal logic," why is it different from the logic that anyone else uses, and why on earth do you have any reason to assume that it's the way I (or anyone else, for that matter) form thoughts? I believe you're arguing a very poor straw man here, because the condition you oppose actually doesn't exist in any significant fashion. I can support someone doing a job the duty of which I disagree because the decisions have already been made, on an unalterable scale, and to back away from them now would be even worse than having gone. We've made our bed to rebuild Iraq and, late in the game, proferred the explanation that we're doing it for the sake of uplifting the people and establishing a functioning democracy. Now we have to do it. As I have said many times before, I don't for a second presume that my personal views can dictate foreign policy, especially ex post facto. The important decisions have been made and no one in their right mind is going to argue that having American soldiers fail in their objectives and get killed is going to be for the benefit of the nation. Furthermore, they're people! Jeez. How hard is it to see that I don't want a bunch of 20somethings to die? On Babylon 5, Earth has a civil war. Many in EarthForce take the side of the despotic president, even after he declared martial law, dissolved the Senate and even bombed civilian targets on Mars. Would you say, "Well, I don't agree with that stuff, but the troops are just doing their jobs!?" Well, I've never watched Babylon 5, but declaring martial law and dissolving the legislative branch of the government seem to be a lot more actionable by the citizenry than going into a war that may or may not have been the right thing to do at this point in history and primarily affects the actual fighting force. I don't think the comparison works. The point is...if going into Iraq was so wrong, then why didn't the troops revolt? How can you support someone who followed orders that you think are wrong? And some did, a few months back, refusing to follow orders, if I remember correctly. Because they're part of a volunteer army? Because they signed up for this job? Because they themselves might actually want to fight? Your argument is a false dichotomy; the rightness or wrongness of a decision made by the U.S. State department and Congress is not parallel to the convictions of an individual soldier. I support soldiers following orders because it's their job to follow orders, and if soldiers didn't follow orders and observe the chain of command, the entire structure of a large military force would collapse. If you want to get into really specific examples (e.g., Abu Ghraib), then yes, following orders can sometimes be a bad thing, but in general it's the core of how a state military operates. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted April 2, 2005 And congrats on working Babylon 5 into a discussion of Iraq. **cough**Nerd.**cough** Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Slayer 0 Report post Posted April 2, 2005 And congrats on working Babylon 5 into a discussion of Iraq. **cough**Nerd.**cough** Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SuperJerk 0 Report post Posted April 3, 2005 And congrats on working Babylon 5 into a discussion of Iraq. **cough**Nerd.**cough** Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Deadbolt Report post Posted April 3, 2005 Wow, you really are blinded by your cluelessness, aren't ya? Explain what you’re on about…then I’ll get back to you… A) Well, Nick Berg got beheaded. Ditto Daniel Pearl. Those contractors got burned alive. Yup, that's DAMNED comparable. I already acknowledged these acts by Muslim extremists. These people don’t officially represent their people, American soldiers do. B ) And there was a major outcry here over them --- but, for some ODD reason, it seems the world didn't care all that much about beheadings. But a guy with panties on his head? Oh, that's evil! And you can travel across the World and see that? LoL, so it’s not just Iraq your in now. Shows how little you know about the situation, the things were on the news for weeks…. You're probably one of those people who thinks the World hates America...the World doesn't hate America, they just don't like certain things they do. C) Funny, you only mentioned our alleged wrong-doing. Ah, this discussion thread is about an American soldier being tried, and I gave my views on it… Defending his country? You HONESTLY believe that? BWA HA HA HA HA! IRAQIS hate the insurgents. Nothing really to comment on here, you just quotes my valid comments and e-laughed…no point made… Anybody who studied the situation and had an IQ hovering above room temperature. Ah no...obviously you haven’t “studied the situation” rather you have been blinded by propaganda, which is clear from how you just make these pointless derogatory comments about my fair points and opinions. Seeing as how Americans WEAR UNIFORMS, do not INTENTIONALLY TARGET CIVILIANS (see, if we did, our casualties would be damned low), and HAVE A CLEAR CHAIN OF COMMAND --- they are, according to the Geneva Conventions, an ARMY and not TERRORISTS. LOL, now this is funny. “Hey, we’re a country, we can invade anywhere we want”. Haven’t you heard of “Terrorist Nations”??? Now I’m not saying America is a terrorist nation, because I don’t think it is, but if an Iraqi was to make the comment, why would there comment be any less valid than yours about them? My point still remains. It's called BASIC research. Really, not that complicated. Research you obviously haven’t done. We don't. We have subhuman monkey dictators pouring money into people who want anarchy rather than freedom for their people. Yeah, I agree with that on George W. Bush. Although your comments relating to his people I wouldn’t agree with, I’d say that could be put done to 50% of the people, and they aren’t Anarchists, they’ve just been blinded by propaganda and have been virtually brainwashed. But, hey, feel free siding with people who hate freedom. LOL, this “Freedom” word make me laugh at how some people choose to use it. He introduces the “Patriot Act” which take liberties and freedoms away from good, honest people and invades countries for oil illegally, and there is people who actually believe it’s all for “Freedom” LOL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob_barron 0 Report post Posted April 3, 2005 The fact that people still we think we went to war for oil make me laugh. You invalidated all your points with that. Why not invade Venezuela? They have oil too Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2GOLD 0 Report post Posted April 3, 2005 Invading Iraq for oil would be like robbing a 7-11 just for a Big Gulp. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ted the Poster 0 Report post Posted April 3, 2005 Michael Moore, Al Frankon, Jon Stewart and Al Gore as sources for the various information. Let's just ignore him from now on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted April 3, 2005 I was refering to the 1500 dead American soldiers and estimated 10,000 Iraqi civilians. Care to reveal where these estimates come from? Oh yes, I nearly forgot the fires set to oil pipelines, contractors hung and mutilated, construction workers beheaded, charity workers kidnapped and killed. Yep, let freedom ring! You also forgot elections and people fighting against the insurgents. SCREW THE PEOPLE! Yes, I know, I know. Iraqi insurgents did all of that. There wouldn't be all those aforementioned contractors and charity workers there if the States hadn't gone to war and destroyed the whole god damned country anyway. Yes, because before this war, Iraq was Shangri-fucking-la. Nobody ever suffered. Hey, I've lost everything I own, I have no lower half to my body, and all my family's dead, but at least I can vote for some guy that I'm told to by the people responsible for my missing legs and deceased brothers and sisters. "Hey, who wants a possibility of freedom when I can just be summarily grabbed by goons from a man who has gassed countless numbers of my countrymen? And, sure, the insurgents are TARGETING people like my family --- but if they didn't care, they wouldn't slaughter us!" Iraq --- country fighting imperialism, or battered wife? You decide! I already acknowledged these acts by Muslim extremists. These people don’t officially represent their people, American soldiers do. 1) Nah, you didn't acknowledge them. 2) If they, in your own words, don't represent the people --- you'll explain why POW status should be given to them, right? And you can travel across the World and see that? LoL, so it’s not just Iraq your in now. Shows how little you know about the situation, the things were on the news for weeks…. You're probably one of those people who thinks the World hates America...the World doesn't hate America, they just don't like certain things they do. The world, quite frankly, can suck a dick. The world is full of corrupt cowards who will do nothing to benefit anybody. The "world" allowed Hitler to take over Europe. The "world" allowed the atrocities in the Balkans, Sudan, and Rwanda. The "world" supports terrorists over Israel. Yeah, let me tell you how much of a shit I give about the "world"... Ah no...obviously you haven’t “studied the situation” rather you have been blinded by propaganda, which is clear from how you just make these pointless derogatory comments about my fair points and opinions. Said the guy who used Al Franken, Michael Moore, and Jon Stewart as sources. Yeah, get back to me on that whole "buying into propaganda" thing, OK? LOL, now this is funny. “Hey, we’re a country, we can invade anywhere we want”. Haven’t you heard of “Terrorist Nations”??? Now I’m not saying America is a terrorist nation, because I don’t think it is, but if an Iraqi was to make the comment, why would there comment be any less valid than yours about them? My point still remains. Actually, yes, we can invade anywhere we want. It's the gift of hegemony. Unlike the rest of the "world" in history, though, we're not anxious to throw our power around. When we start sponsoring people who blow themselves up and intentionally target innocents, you MIGHT have a case. Yeah, I agree with that on George W. Bush. Although your comments relating to his people I wouldn’t agree with, I’d say that could be put done to 50% of the people, and they aren’t Anarchists, they’ve just been blinded by propaganda and have been virtually brainwashed. Did Michael Moore tell you that? Zarqawi has openly stated that democracy is evil. But, hey, he's the GOOD GUY in your myopic world view. LOL, this “Freedom” word make me laugh at how some people choose to use it. He introduces the “Patriot Act” which take liberties and freedoms away from good, honest people and invades countries for oil illegally, and there is people who actually believe it’s all for “Freedom” LOL. OK, I'll call: Name a liberty taken away by the PATRIOT Act. Go ahead. Name one. I'm sure you can do so EASILY. Oh, and try to use a real source this time. And if this war was about oil, we'd have conquered them years ago. Hell, if it was about oil, the Middle East would consist of Israel and a whole lot of nothing. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianGuitarist 0 Report post Posted April 3, 2005 [email=http://www.iraqbodycount.net/]http://www.iraqbodycount.net/[/email] [email=http://icasualties.org/oif/]http://icasualties.org/oif/[/email] Apology accepted. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted April 4, 2005 [email=http://www.iraqbodycount.net/]http://www.iraqbodycount.net/[/email] [email=http://icasualties.org/oif/]http://icasualties.org/oif/[/email] Apology accepted. How about a source and not, you know, an email link? -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianGuitarist 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2005 Hmm. Lemme try this again. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ http://icasualties.org/oif/ Try that. If not, fuck it. Type it in manually. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Deadbolt Report post Posted April 4, 2005 1) Nah, you didn't acknowledge them. Yeah, I did 2) If they, in your own words, don't represent the people --- you'll explain why POW status should be given to them, right? Who said the man we’re talking about was a Muslim Extremist? Someone needs to think a little more… The world, quite frankly, can suck a dick. The world is full of corrupt cowards who will do nothing to benefit anybody. The "world" allowed Hitler to take over Europe. The "world" allowed the atrocities in the Balkans, Sudan, and Rwanda. The "world" supports terrorists over Israel. Yeah, let me tell you how much of a shit I give about the "world"... Care Factor = Zero. Actually, yes, we can invade anywhere we want. It's the gift of hegemony. Unlike the rest of the "world" in history, though, we're not anxious to throw our power around. When we start sponsoring people who blow themselves up and intentionally target innocents, you MIGHT have a case. So…now you’re moving on to, Palestine is it? Jeez, how many times are you going to go off topic to try and get away from the subject matter... And it’s funny; “we” can invade anywhere “we” want. Are you in the army? No. Your one of those who just sits there supporting the war, but won’t get off your ass to back your convictions. Why don’t you take up a gun, be a man, and go do what you so readily support? “You” don’t do anything. PS: Tell George W. Bush to try and invade Iran, or even France for that matter. Let’s see how many countries he can invade… Name a liberty taken away by the PATRIOT Act. Go ahead. Name one. I'm sure you can do so EASILY. Oh, and try to use a real source LOL, how about the liberty of being Guilty until proven innocent, how about FREEDOM!!! You’re liable to be thrown in jail at any moment, your computer/privacy invaded, and all without warning, trail or conviction. But hey, it’s all for freedom ain’t it, at least you enjoy interment. And if this war was about oil, we'd have conquered them years ago. Hell, if it was about oil, the Middle East would consist of Israel and a whole lot of nothing. Lol truly the words of a person who knows nothing about the entire situation/war… Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted April 4, 2005 Hmm. Lemme try this again. http://www.iraqbodycount.net/ http://icasualties.org/oif/ Try that. If not, fuck it. Type it in manually. You ARE aware that the first site is counting deaths caused by terrorists as deaths caused by the coalition, right? That whole deaths that the coalition is responsible for due to a "breakdown in law" or some such nonsense? icasualties lists the deaths of military personnel, which is a tragedy. Who said the man we’re talking about was a Muslim Extremist? Someone needs to think a little more… YOU said that they don't represent the people. Nor do they have a command structure. Nor do they have uniforms. Nor do they avoid blending into the civilians. So they get POW status under the Geneva Conventions for what reason, precisely? You are aware that they were passed just as much to prevent countries from intentionally causing civilian deaths by hiding out amongst them as it was to prevent mistreatment of prisoners, right? And it’s funny; “we” can invade anywhere “we” want. Are you in the army? No. Your one of those who just sits there supporting the war, but won’t get off your ass to back your convictions. Why don’t you take up a gun, be a man, and go do what you so readily support? “You” don’t do anything. I'm not a cop. I guess I can't say murder is bad, right? PS: Tell George W. Bush to try and invade Iran, or even France for that matter. Let’s see how many countries he can invade… I wish he would, to be perfectly honest. Iran needs their subhuman gov't to be overturned and France --- well, who CAN'T overthrow France? LOL, how about the liberty of being Guilty until proven innocent, how about FREEDOM!!! Umm, you aren't guilty until proven innocent. It's vice versa. It's always been vice versa. And, as expected, you can't name one. Ironic thing is, the people who bitch about it can NEVER name one. You’re liable to be thrown in jail at any moment, your computer/privacy invaded, and all without warning, trail or conviction. In order: 1) No. 2) Any searches require a court order (which means a judge has to approve it) --- as has always been the case. They simply allow what the gov't has done to the mafia to be done to terrorists. You REALLY don't know what the hell you're talking about. Lol truly the words of a person who knows nothing about the entire situation/war… ...said the guy who uses Michael Moore, Al Franken, and Jon Stewart as sources on what America is like. -=Mike Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripper 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2005 Its shit like this that makes Mike even a bigger quote using, never say die even if point is ridicilously wrong poster around here. Everyonce in a while someone comes along that is so ridiculously wrong that he gets to own them thus giving him way to much confidence. Stop it...really. *kicks Mike in the shin for no reason and walks out* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CanadianGuitarist 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2005 *kicks Mike in the shin for no reason and walks out* Jeers. Its shit like this that makes Mike even a bigger quote using, never say die even if point is ridicilously wrong poster around here. Everyonce in a while someone comes along that is so ridiculously wrong that they get to own them thus giving him way to much confidence. Stop it...really. Cheers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
2GOLD 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2005 Its shit like this that makes Mike even a bigger quote using, never say die even if point is ridicilously wrong poster around here. Everyonce in a while someone comes along that is so ridiculously wrong that they get to own them thus giving him way to much confidence. Stop it...really. *kicks Mike in the shin for no reason and walks out* I'd like to think it's more like dangling shiny keys in front of him to keep him busy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest BDC Report post Posted April 4, 2005 Ripper, anyone that says something as blatantly disgusting as this: Because they do that so often. Yup, just slaughtering folks all willy-nilly. Agreed. He deserves to get slapped around. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ripper 0 Report post Posted April 4, 2005 Yeah, my last post came out wrong. no doubt that kid needs to be smacked around cause he is disgustingly wrong right now, and Mike is doing a good job of it, but this all bites us in the ass when some other topic comes up and mike has his momentum going. At first I didn't understand his stick-to-it-ness. But now I see where he gets it from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MikeSC Report post Posted April 5, 2005 Need a hug, Rip? -=Mike ...Into racial comraderie, not racial hate... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest Agent of Oblivion Report post Posted April 5, 2005 Well, I've never watched Babylon 5, but declaring martial law and dissolving the legislative branch of the government seem to be a lot more actionable by the citizenry than going into a war that may or may not have been the right thing to do at this point in history and primarily affects the actual fighting force. I don't think the comparison works. That's a paragraph no one has ever said before. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Edwin MacPhisto 0 Report post Posted April 5, 2005 Sentence, really. I should have used a semi-colon and left it all as one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jobber of the Week 0 Report post Posted April 5, 2005 Nevermind this post. Fuck it, I'm not going to participate in another thread that's been gay'ed up by Deadbolt. Who the hell is this guy and where did he come from? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LessonInMachismo 0 Report post Posted April 5, 2005 Nevermind this post. Fuck it, I'm not going to participate in another thread that's been gay'ed up by Deadbolt. Who the hell is this guy and where did he come from? Oh, Canada! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
