Who Should Have Went Over?

[Black Lushus 0]

Okay, so I'm watching Wrestlemania 19 last night (trying to catch up on the time I lost between 2001 and 2004) and I catch the two matches that have been panned by a lot of wrestling critics including folks here: Jericho/HBK and HHH/Booker T. I'm not too sure about Jericho/HBK but I definently hated the ending to the HHH/Booker T match...they heavily hyped up Booker T, made it seem like it was his destiny to win only to have him lose in a pretty weird finish (HHH pinning him almost a full minute or so after hitting the pedigree)...needless to say I was pretty angered by that finish...

 

anyway, the question I'm getting to is, going back over the years, who do you think should have won a fued or a certain match only to have the outcome be the exact opposite, be it backstage politics, stupid WWE logic, etc.?

 

I think another good example would be UT/Ric Flair from WM 18, though they obviously wouldn't have UT lose at a WM, Flair should have won that fued...come to think of it, that just brings up another question: has UT EVER lost a fued?

[Guest Joel Wendel]

I suppose you could say he lost the fued with yokozuna...at least until he won it.

[eiker_ir 0]

he lost the Lesnar feud.

[Black Lushus 0]

ahhhhh see, like I say, 2001 to 2004, total blur...

[The Decemberists 0]

Trips had to beat Booker - how else could be prove the superiority of the white race and prove that "those people" can't be world champions?

 

God bless you Hunter.

[brighty 0]

has UT EVER lost a fued?

he lost feuds against Austin in 98, Austin in 99 , and Austin in 2001.

[Black Lushus 0]

Honestly, it's not even so much the whole race subplot they threw in there, just the general build up of Booker T, the fact that it was Mania and not some throw away brand PPV...

[The Decemberists 0]

As soon as the whole race thingwas even hinted at it shouldn't even have become an issue with who was going over.

 

I think the reasoning for Trips going over was so he could "stay strong" for Goldberg rather than having him lose then have to re-win the title.

[Black Lushus 0]

oh that's right, I forgot Goldberg came along the following month...boy what a success THAT was huh?

[brighty 0]

but before HHH/Goldberg we had the HHH/Kevin Nash feud that had big matches on THREE straight PPVs. god did 2003 suck for main events on RAW.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

I think the reasoning for Trips going over was so he could "stay strong" for Goldberg rather than having him lose then have to re-win the title.

That was Hunter's main argument against losing to Booker, whether he really meant it or not is another question, seeing as he then got his title loss to Goldberg postponed for three months so he could feud with Kevin Nash.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

Another reason the HHH/Booker feud pissed me off was it seemed it was mostly done to spite The Rock.

[Guest news_gimmick]

Wasn't it because of how unover Goldberg was the reason that they went with Nash/HHH while Goldberg built up some momentum? I seem to remember Goldberg geting lukewarm reactions and not being nearly over as he should've been in order to get the title off Trips. (Of course its not like Nash was bringing the fanfare, but Goldberg should've been) I also believe orignally Goldberg had been scheduled to face HHH at Bad Blood as well.

[Guest MikeSC]

but before HHH/Goldberg we had the HHH/Kevin Nash feud that had big matches on THREE straight PPVs. god did 2003 suck for main events on RAW.

True. However, I do think HHH totally put GB over and hearing GB bitch about how the WWE "misused" him (read: didn't let him squash every single person on the roster) is laughable. Goldberg made Hunter his bitch in every single match (hell, it was Kane that KO'd GB to allow HHH to win the belt back and it took a sledgehammer to end the GB squash-a-thon at SummerSlam).

-=Mike

[MDH257 0]

Stephanie should have left HHH for Kurt Angle in the love triange feud in 2000.

[iggymcfly 0]

HHH should have gone over Benoit at WM XX to keep Wrestlemania unpredictable. A lot of times they have to put the face over because he's got so much mometum and they need to establish him as a star (e.g. Austin, Batista), so they should take advantage of the boring challengers as chances to keep the belt on the heel.

[Jericholic82 0]

I suppose you could say he lost the fued with yokozuna...at least until he won it.

Great pic Wendel

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

HHH should have gone over Benoit at WM XX to keep Wrestlemania unpredictable.

Yes, let's kill a babyface push on the biggest stage of the year for no real reason other than to swerve people.

 

Welcome the TSM Vince Russo.

[MillenniumMan831 0]

HHH should have gone over Benoit at WM XX to keep Wrestlemania unpredictable.

Yes, let's kill a babyface push on the biggest stage of the year for no real reason other than to swerve people.

 

Welcome the TSM Vince Russo.

I'd have LOVED to see NYC react to that. It wouldn't even have surprised me if I would have read days later that HHH was booked to win but Vince changed it on the fly due to crowd reaction.

[Guest Trivia247]

He never lost a feud via outfighting the opponent, whenever an opponent knock him down, he would get back at some point, similar to his second casket match with Yokozuna that sealed their feud after the first one's debacle....we all thank jeebus that Chuck Norris was there.

 

Brock was the only one to defeat Taker and move on without a reply, because they turned Brock after defeating Taker from a Heel to Tweener, giving Taker respect.

 

Anyone who did defeat Taker usually still had a feud with him afterwards but the Feud would downgrade to a simmer, as if to save return matches for later in the year

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

HHH should have gone over Benoit at WM XX to keep Wrestlemania unpredictable.

Yes, let's kill a babyface push on the biggest stage of the year for no real reason other than to swerve people.

 

Welcome the TSM Vince Russo.

I'd have LOVED to see NYC react to that.

If Triple H had hit that pedigree right at the end and pinned Benoit, I have zero doubt that the fans would have become crazy unruly, and pelted the ring with anything they could get their hands on. MSG wanted Benoit to win, and they weren't going to be satisfied with any other result.

[Guest Salacious Crumb]

I doubt HHH would've left the building in one piece if he pinned Benoit.

[The Metal Maniac 0]

HHH should have gone over Benoit at WM XX to keep Wrestlemania unpredictable.

 

Yeah, how unpredictible...for HHH to have left WM as Champion for THREE YEARS STRAIGHT. Hell, he would have been 4 for 5 if you count back to WM 16.

 

HHH winning is NEVER unpredictictable. Hell, I refused to believe that Benoit was going over until I saw HHH tap. Even then I didn't really believe it for about 10 minutes.

 

Besides, being unpredictible isn't always good thing. Sometimes, the people KNOW the good guy is gonna win, but they want to see it happen anyway.

[Ravenbomb 0]

Tazz should've won in his Smackdown match against HHH

[iggymcfly 0]

Actually, I didn't really think HHH shoud have gone over, so much as I just wanted him to go over. Everyone at the bar was into Benoit fine, and I think the live crowd was too. I just have always hated Benoit as a face, and I was 99% sure he was winning the match going in, so I would have marked out hard if HHH had just won it with the Pedigree.

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

Wasn't it because of how unover Goldberg was the reason that they went with Nash/HHH while Goldberg built up some momentum? I

Hunter v Nash went on for so long because Hunter wanted it to. That simple really.

 

 

However, I do think HHH totally put GB over and hearing GB bitch about how the WWE "misused" him (read: didn't let him squash every single person on the roster) is laughable. Goldberg made Hunter his bitch in every single match (hell, it was Kane that KO'd GB to allow HHH to win the belt back and it took a sledgehammer to end the GB squash-a-thon at SummerSlam).

 

WWE did misuse Goldberg, and it amazes me that people still say otherwise. Goldberg got over by being a monster, the same way Batista got over, and you don't book a monster to be a clueless fool, who keeps getting outsmarted all the time, and made to look like an idiot who is always spearing referee's and other babyfaces by accident. If Steve Austin had been booked so badly, getting outsmarted by Vince McMahon every week, and accidentally Stunning everyone in sight, he never would have gotten over big either. It's basic common sense to not book a top babyface in such a insanely stupid manner, and how the heck anyone can say that the way Goldberg was booked was anything other than inept is baffling.

[Guest MikeSC]

However, I do think HHH totally put GB over and hearing GB bitch about how the WWE "misused" him (read: didn't let him squash every single person on the roster) is laughable. Goldberg made Hunter his bitch in every single match (hell, it was Kane that KO'd GB to allow HHH to win the belt back and it took a sledgehammer to end the GB squash-a-thon at SummerSlam).

WWE did misuse Goldberg, and it amazes me that people still say otherwise. Goldberg got over by being a monster, the same way Batista got over, and you don't book a monster to be a clueless fool, who keeps getting outsmarted all the time, and made to look like an idiot who is always spearing referee's and other babyfaces by accident. If Steve Austin had been booked so badly, getting outsmarted by Vince McMahon every week, and accidentally Stunning everyone in sight, he never would have gotten over big either. It's basic common sense to not book a top babyface in such a insanely stupid manner, and how the heck anyone can say that the way Goldberg was booked was anything other than inept is baffling.

Goldberg was allowed to slaughter Hunter, including beating ALL of Evolution before pinning Hunter at SSeries.

 

If Goldberg is unable to get over without destroying a company in the process, there is a big problem. Goldberg seemed to want to destroy Rock, Jericho, Hunter (which he did), Mark Henry, etc. and it would have been idiotic for the WWE to trash everybody to protect GB. The WWE tried to give him something resembling a character and still had him dominate the company.

 

To give GB what he wanted would have led to more destruction than JJ has done in TNA.

 

Hunter made Goldberg look like an unbeatable God in the ring.

-=Mike

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

However, I do think HHH totally put GB over and hearing GB bitch about how the WWE "misused" him (read: didn't let him squash every single person on the roster) is laughable. Goldberg made Hunter his bitch in every single match (hell, it was Kane that KO'd GB to allow HHH to win the belt back and it took a sledgehammer to end the GB squash-a-thon at SummerSlam).

WWE did misuse Goldberg, and it amazes me that people still say otherwise. Goldberg got over by being a monster, the same way Batista got over, and you don't book a monster to be a clueless fool, who keeps getting outsmarted all the time, and made to look like an idiot who is always spearing referee's and other babyfaces by accident. If Steve Austin had been booked so badly, getting outsmarted by Vince McMahon every week, and accidentally Stunning everyone in sight, he never would have gotten over big either. It's basic common sense to not book a top babyface in such a insanely stupid manner, and how the heck anyone can say that the way Goldberg was booked was anything other than inept is baffling.

Goldberg was allowed to slaughter Hunter, including beating ALL of Evolution before pinning Hunter at SSeries.

 

If Goldberg is unable to get over without destroying a company in the process, there is a big problem. Goldberg seemed to want to destroy Rock, Jericho, Hunter (which he did), Mark Henry, etc. and it would have been idiotic for the WWE to trash everybody to protect GB. The WWE tried to give him something resembling a character and still had him dominate the company.

 

To give GB what he wanted would have led to more destruction than JJ has done in TNA.

 

Hunter made Goldberg look like an unbeatable God in the ring.

-=Mike

Goldberg was allowed to slaughter Hunter, including beating ALL of Evolution before pinning Hunter at SSeries.

 

Not surprising, considering he had been devalued considerably by that point. If they had booked him that strong from his first day in, and not made him such a joke of a babyface, he might have really gotten over, but for the usual petty reasons that was never going to happen.

 

If Goldberg is unable to get over without destroying a company in the process, there is a big problem.

 

He doesn't have to destroy everyone. He just needs to be portrayed as a dominating monster, who isn't a clueless putz.

 

Goldberg seemed to want to destroy Rock, Jericho, Hunter (which he did), Mark Henry, etc. and it would have been idiotic for the WWE to trash everybody to protect GB.

 

He felt like that because that is how he was booked in WCW, which was his only experience in wrestling. Why he felt like that doesn't really matter, because he was right. Monsters don't get over as monsters by being booked as idiots. And it's not done primarily to protect Goldberg, though he should be protected, but to get him over. When Goldberg was a monster, like at Summeslam, the people went crazy for the guy.

 

The WWE tried to give him something resembling a character and still had him dominate the company.

 

Why should he have been given 'a character' in the first place ? It was alread proven he could get over like crazy just by being a monster. Why tamper with what works ?

 

Hunter made Goldberg look like an unbeatable God in the ring.

 

Only at Survivor Series, long past the point when it really mattered. Hunter outsmarted him at Summerslam even though he could barely walk to the ring, and at Unforgiven Hunter was dominant for most of the match, with Goldberg having to sell for most of it, which isn't what the people wanted.

[Guest MikeSC]

Goldberg was allowed to slaughter Hunter, including beating ALL of Evolution before pinning Hunter at SSeries.

Not surprising, considering he had been devalued considerably by that point. If they had booked him that strong from his first day in, and not made him such a joke of a babyface, he might have really gotten over, but for the usual petty reasons that was never going to happen.

 

They had him annihilate just about everybody at SSlam, jobbing to a sledgehammer. He then dominated Hunter at Unforgiven in one of the biggest fait accomplis in recent history. And this was after a dominating win over Jericho and a clean pinfall over the Rock.

 

There's not much more you can do with a worker who is both horribly limited in the ring and pure shit on the mic.

If Goldberg is unable to get over without destroying a company in the process, there is a big problem.

He doesn't have to destroy everyone. He just needs to be portrayed as a dominating monster, who isn't a clueless putz.

When was he treated as a clueless putz? Even the dreaded skit where Goldust put a blonde wig over his head hardly portrayed GB as a clueless putz.

Goldberg seemed to want to destroy Rock, Jericho, Hunter (which he did), Mark Henry, etc. and it would have been idiotic for the WWE to trash everybody to protect GB.

He felt like that because that is how he was booked in WCW, which was his only experience in wrestling. Why he felt like that doesn't really matter, because he was right. Monsters don't get over as monsters by being booked as idiots. And it's not done primarily to protect Goldberg, though he should be protected, but to get him over. When Goldberg was a monster, like at Summeslam, the people went crazy for the guy.

And doing that helped kill WCW by destroying a huge chunk of the midcard. WWE has to keep somebody competitive with him to be able to challenge him at some point in the future.

 

He was put over clean over Jericho. Clean over the Rock. Clean over Hunter repeatedly.

 

Who was ever made to look like they could compete, one-on-one, with him?

The WWE tried to give him something resembling a character and still had him dominate the company.

Why should he have been given 'a character' in the first place ? It was alread proven he could get over like crazy just by being a monster. Why tamper with what works ?

Because it doesn't last. It never lasts. A job --- which he'll have to eventually do --- will kill his character. It killed it in WCW. Even a total screwjob like he did against Nash ruined his drawing prowess.

 

And GB was a nice draw for a little while, then proceeded to not draw a dime for YEARS after that. He has never proven himself to be a long-term draw.

Hunter made Goldberg look like an unbeatable God in the ring.

Only at Survivor Series, long past the point when it really mattered. Hunter outsmarted him at Summerslam even though he could barely walk to the ring, and at Unforgiven Hunter was dominant for most of the match, with Goldberg having to sell for most of it, which isn't what the people wanted.

Goldberg looked great against Hunter at Unforgiven. It's not Hunter's fault that the WWE is not big on sub-five minute main events, which seems to be the ONLY time Goldberg looks competent in the ring.

 

Hunter has done plenty of things deserving of criticism --- "burying" Goldberg is not one of them.

-=Mike

[Hunter's Torn Quad 0]

He then dominated Hunter at Unforgiven in one of the biggest fait accomplis in recent history. And this was after a dominating win over Jericho and a clean pinfall over the Rock.

 

Did you even watch their match at Unforgiven ? Hunter dominated most of it. I'll get to the Jericho and Rock matches in a minute.

 

There's not much more you can do with a worker who is both horribly limited in the ring and pure shit on the mic.

 

While that may be true, if you're going to put him in the main event scene, book him so he can actually draw. Disguise his flaws, don't shine a spotlight on them.

 

When was he treated as a clueless putz?

 

I can only guess you never watched the nunumerous Raw's where he speared the referee or other babyfaces by accident, and very rarely speared who he was aiming for. During the build up to his matches with Jericho and Rock he was spearing everyone except the guys he was aiming for. He was portrayed as putz who couldn't hit the target. Yeah, that'll make people get behind him(!)

 

WWE has to keep somebody competitive with him to be able to challenge him at some point in the future.

 

Which is where building up the midcard comes in.

 

He was put over clean over Jericho. Clean over the Rock. Clean over Hunter repeatedly

 

He beat them clean, but he was never really put over them, because the build up to most of those matches made him out to be an idiot.

 

Because it doesn't last. It never lasts. A job --- which he'll have to eventually do --- will kill his character. It killed it in WCW. Even a total screwjob like he did against Nash ruined his drawing prowess.

 

Sure, it might not last, but that doesn't mean you don't even try, or do your best to cut him off as soon as possible. And while the screwjob loss to Nash might have damaged his drawing power, he still got big reactions from the fans.

 

Goldberg looked great against Hunter at Unforgiven. It's not Hunter's fault that the WWE is not big on sub-five minute main events, which seems to be the ONLY time Goldberg looks competent in the ring.

 

Again I have to ask if you actually watched the Unforgiven match. And so what if Goldberg only looked competent in short matches ? You don't book a guy to expose his weaknesses, especially if he's meant to be a main eventer.

 

Hunter has done plenty of things deserving of criticism --- "burying" Goldberg is not one of them.

 

People who know better say otherwise.

 

I'm going to let everyone else debate the question at hand. It's tiresome having to explain basic booking concepts over and over again.