HHH injured neck, collapses

[what 0]

So you mean to tell me that the ONLY way wrestling is going to be popular again is if Triple H suffers a career ending injury. fucking pathetic, I mean really. Triple H is not the next coming of Hitler. hes just a TV show performer. wishing injury, or in this case, hoping he stays injured really shows how some people around here are fucking morons.

MAY BEE IF DA UNDERTAKER WAS GIVEN A 30 MONTH TITLE REIGN BUY RATEZ WOULD SOAR?!?

 

HHH will be the center of the show until HHH retires/dies/suffers a career ending injury/whatever. And while that is occuring, wrestling will never be hot again.

[what 0]

Hulk Hogan was every bit the oppressive tyrant that HHH is percieved to be, and that didn't stop WCW from becoming hugely popular and wrestling booming again with Hulk Hogan still on top.

Don't compare Hogan to HHH. Hogan was 10x the star HHH is.

[Guest Hass of Pain]

Hulk Hogan was every bit the oppressive tyrant that HHH is percieved to be, and that didn't stop WCW from becoming hugely popular and wrestling booming again with Hulk Hogan still on top.

Don't compare Hogan to HHH. Hogan was 10x the star HHH is.

I never disputed that Hogan was a bigger star than HHH was. I simply said that the reason a lot of people tuned out of the WWF in the early 90's was because they were tired of seeing Hogan on top and more importantly tired of the same old cartoon formula, and that didn't stop them from tuning back in to Nitro when it got hot despite Hogan still being on top.

 

A lot of people tuned out of wrestling with HHH on top because they were tired of him, because Austin and The Rock were gone, and just because in general they were tired of the WWF "Attitude" formula and were ready to move on to reality television, The OC or whatever the trend of the current time is.

 

HHH isn't the problem, the fact that WWE is still using the Attitude style of booking, television production and presentation that they have been using since 1997 is the problem. If people who stopped tuning into Raw in 2001 turn it on today, they are going to see pretty much the same opening, the same graphic presentation, the same stage setup, the same ring style and lighting, the same format of in-ring promos mixed with backstage antics and high calibur matches, and hear the same old voice of JR in The King and it is going to feel like a rerun to them, regardless of what new stars are around.

 

I have always been a big believer in the that changing of the vehicle is more important than the changing of the stars when it comes to a promotion exploding again. It wasn't until the WWF dropped the cartoon era and went with the Attitude era and the live War Zone that the company took off again, and it won't be until WWE finally lets got of the Attitude Era philosophy and presentation (and history has shown that the prospect of bankruptcy is about the only thing that bring this change) and embraces a whole new concept of presenting their product that it will become successful again.

[Taker666 0]

HHH will be the center of the show until HHH retires/dies/suffers a career ending injury/whatever. And while that is occuring, wrestling will never be hot again.

and you continue to be the biggest asshole around here.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

I like HHH, and obviously I hope that he isn't seriously injured. The one thing that I love about HHH is the fact that he seems like one of the few guys in WWE who really loves the old school and is still a student of the game at this point.

 

Which is his gimmick. Which is why you think "very few guys" in the WWE are that way. Because HHH has dibs on being all of that, and no one else can. I could call Chris Masters "old school" because he uses the polish hammer and a full nelson. As an OVW guy, he had to watch tapes of old wrestling matches. Why isn't he old school? Not that it fucking matters.

 

 

He obviously idolizes Ric Flair and Harley Race, rocks the Ole Anderson/Harley Race facial hair these days and can build a hell of a dramatic match.

 

JBL/Cena could have been a "hell of a dramatic match" but their time got cut and accomodate HHH's lengthy match with Batista. HHH wrestles a formula, so much so that when I was watching his WM match I was calling spots TWO MINUTES ahead of when they'd happen. It's not much of an accomplishment, it's just since he does it so often and other guys don't, it appears to you that this is a unique trait.

 

WWE needs more people like that, and whereas guys like Hogan and Kevin Nash were intent on never improving once they got to the top, HHH is always trying to make himself better and he is way better for the company than The Undertaker.

 

How so? HHH wrestles the same match he did 5 years ago. He cuts the same promo he did 5 years ago. Hogan wrestled with more variety than HHH did, fer crying out loud. The Undertaker, if you want to talk about improvement, is heads-and-shoulders above HHH in that dept. He also would step down when he lost to someone, which is something HHH tends not to do. I'll get to that later.

 

The speed of his recovery from his quad tear was insane, and his workout habits are even more insane.

 

C'mon. Vince McMahon had 2 quad tears and is up and about.

 

He and Ric Flair took Randy Orton and Batista under their wing, traveled with them and you hear stories Dave Batista tells about sitting at dinner with HHH at midnight and just wanting to go to bed and HHH sitting for two more hours talking about nothing but the business and how Dave could improve his game. I respect the hell out of HHH's passion and I think his mindset is a hell of a positive influence on World Wrestling Entertainment.

 

Whatever you think HHH is, Chris Benoit is 10xs more because Benoit doesn't pick-and-choose who to give that info to. And HHH's mindset, whatever you defined it as, has done shit for the WWE, if you haven't noticed.

 

I also think that he gets too much blame for things like Shelton Benjamin. HHH made Benjamin look gold, put him over huge in their first two matches and then set him free.

 

How did HHH "put him over huge" when after those 3 wins Benjamin was still "under" HHH. The concept of the "put over" is clear, putting someone over means giving up your spot, HHH never did and never has. HHH knew those jobs would be meaningless because -as a writer on the show, as fucktoy of Stephanie McMahon- he knew they wouldn't do anything with Benjamin afterwards. In the grand scheme of things, those jobs meant nothing and he didn't "lose" anything with those losses (and STILL got his win back a year later!). This is perhaps the greatest thing a wrestler could learn from HHH.

 

When Shelton Benjamin didn't have the biggest heel on Raw selling his offense and making him look like a star, he wasn't quite ready to be a star on his own yet. He's getting there though.

 

HHH sells for the hurricane for crying out loud! He stooges so often it means nothing! When the WWE had no follow up for Benjamin and dropped him down the card afterwards, how exactly was a "star" supposed to shine?

 

I think that the biggest problem with HHH is that he's the most dominant heel on Raw, so once anyone beats him for the title they have already had the biggest match that they could possibly have and are left with nowhere to go but down.

 

Which is exactly how HHH wants it. Gotta love that mindset.

 

I also think that if The Rock or Steve Austin were still around full time, the fans would treat them as the biggest stars on their show as they do HHH because they were around during the second boom of professional wrestling.

 

That poor HHH, carrying the load all by his lonesome.

 

I totally disagree on the statement that Raw would have been better without HHH as they could "build four stars in the same amount of time". Have you seen Smackdown? They have nothing but time to kill on Smackdown, and no one is really looking like a star and the pay-per-views aren't drawing very well at all. Why? Because you need old stars for new stars to get the rub off of.

 

John Cena, who has gone untouched by HHH, is the biggest star on their _roster_. Go to a WWE show and see how much support he has, it's insane. They had Brock Lesnar built up big time w/o HHH. Eddie Guerrero got over huge at one point but he wasn't able to handle the pressure. Yes, look at Smackdown, they have developed more, longer-lasting and brighter stars than RAW has because they don't have one guy sucking the heat out of everyone. Look at RAW, Eugene was huge and HHH popped his bubble in no time. Benoit didn't even get a chance to be huge. Orton was on his way but, again, popped. RVD, Booker, Kane? Forget it. Batista? Hell, his turn sucked half his heat from him.

 

I love Kurt Angle, but he can't draw or give the rub like HHH can for whatever reason, and John Cena can go over JBL a million times but it won't make him a HUGE star because he's beating a guy who most fans don't regard to be a big star.

 

Cena is the biggest star they have and he didn't need a "HHH rub". HHHs drawing power is laughable, since it has been on the decline for years.

 

HHH is pretty much the only guy left who can give a young star the kind of rub that Batista got at Wrestlemania.

 

That's because HHH has salted the earth so-to-speak, and no new stars were created in 2000 (in this case, Benoit/Jericho/Angle... all of whom HHH went over) so there could be new stars built off them in 2003/2004/2005. That's why the WWE is in the state it is in. But... you don't need a "rub" to get big, you just need to be a unique character who the fans believe in, and have feuds that the fans can follow and invest in. In other words, GOOD WRITING. In other words, what Steph - HHH's wife - hasn't been able to produce since becoming head of creative.

 

But when the smoke clears, HHH is still there and the fans still see him as the biggest star on the show. I don't think is entirely HHH's fault, but he doesn't help the situation either.

 

I think a very large amount of it is his fault. If he were gone, the situation would totally change.

 

I think that by far the best thing to do with HHH is send him to Smackdown in the draft and have him form a new Evolution with Matt Morgan, Rob Conway and Charlie Haas and have him chase John Cena unsuccessfully for the title while Batista is given the chance to fly on his own on Raw.

 

Yeah, that's what they need to do. Have HHH fuck and suck with another roster.

[Guest Hass of Pain]

Congratulations, you are the most bitter wrestling fan that I have ever encountered.

 

If you honestly think that Shelton Benjamin was ready to be a main eventer and that HHH and WWE cut his legs out from under him despite the fact that Benjamin can't cut a very good promo and for the most part doesn't get that much face heat in his matches, than I doubt there is anything that I can say to change your mind.

 

If you can't even give HHH credit for the positive things that he has done, then you are too biased to even look at HHH objectively.

[Toxxic 0]

Batista as Diesel?

 

No.

 

I refuse to believe it.

Damn right. He sits out on the powerbomb.

[iggymcfly 0]

OK, I know I've gone over this in at least one thread before. Brock Lesnar got huge rubs from established stars which built him to the level he rose to. He "ended Hogan's career" when he left him a bloody mess on Smackdown, and then he became the first perso to pin The Rock cleanly in four years. Sure, he didn't get a rub from HHH, but he did get put over by huge, established stars. In addition to that, he was also undefeated for his first six months in the WWE. That's not a gimmick that you can give to every guy that comes down the pike.

 

Second, with only about three months where he was even considering being a face, Batista is more over than John Cena, who they've been building all year. He gets the big Batista chants whenever he's in the ring, and if they just get somebody to help him cut a decent promo every Raw, he'll be over eve bigger in no time.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

A consistent push is what ultimately got Brock over. Following that, it was his own freakish ability to support it. Then came the rubs from Hogan, Rock, and Taker. Who, btw, could all still be used in getting someone over... so there goes the need for HHH. It takes a combination of things to "make" someone, but the most important thing is character, storylines and the big match.

 

I would never have believed how over Cena was if I didn't go to live shows. His merch is everywhere, he has tons of fans. Only Taker rivals him.

[JJ Johnson 0]

In addition to that, he was also undefeated for his first six months in the WWE. That's not a gimmick that you can give to every guy that comes down the pike.

 

 

 

He lost a tag match at Rebellion 2002 to the Hardyz. What you mean to say is no one pinned him.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

Which they are currently giving to Hassan.

 

Who is also getting this "rub" from HBK and Hogan.

 

Who also has the stereotypical heel gimmick.

 

Who also won't get nearly as far as Lesnar because he can't perform in the ring and they aren't pushing him hard enough... probably because they can't have a heel getting more heat than HHH.

[Toxxic 0]

I don't think Hassan's push or lack thereof will have anything to do with HHH. It's all to do with the fact that you can't have the Anti-American going over too strong. He has to be made to look foolish. No-one EVER made Lesnar look foolish, at least not in his original push. Because Hassan is stereotyped into this jingoistic, racist character he can't be allowed to get too successful unless it should start to send out the message that the USA might not be (God forbid!) the greatest country in the world.

[Vyce 0]

I don't think Hassan's push or lack thereof will have anything to do with HHH.

Oh?

 

Is there any other main event heel on the RAW roster other than HHH?

 

There is not.

 

Edge is flirting with it, but hasn't made it there, and it remains to be scene if he will actually be given a sustained push in the ME or whether he'll just be given a brief feud with Batista as part of his "money in the bank" win.

 

Who else is there?

 

Orton was briefly pushed there, but we all know how that turned out.

 

Christian hasn't been pushed to that level at all, despite the fact that no less than the Rock put forth an effort to make him someone important (which the WWE, as usual, dropped).

 

Kane isn't really so much a heel as a tweener, and he's nowhere near the ME (and, IMO, the WWE already fucked up a potential Kane / Batista match by giving it away for free the week before Mania and having Batista cleanly pin him).

 

Face it - NO ONE is allowed to be a main event heel so long as HHH is around. Those who do make it to that level will be there only briefly, as a) their pushes are sabotagedpreliminarily aborted or b) were never intended to be for more than a 2 or 3 month duration in the first place.

 

And might I also add, goddamn I'm developing something of a non-sexual man-crush on RRR. He makes more sense than any of us in this forum, and his arguments are always sound. It's a shame that his detractors simply refute his remarks by declaring him a "bitter smark".

[CBright7831 0]

and then he became the first person to pin The Rock cleanly in four years.

Taker pinned Rock on the last USA episode of RAW as I recall.

[CBright7831 0]

and then he became the first person to pin The Rock cleanly in four years.

Taker pinned Rock clean on the last USA episode of RAW as I recall.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The Rock/Lesnar feud was so good, that I'd say the storyline and match got Lesnar over more than the rub from "beating the Rock". I loved the way they presented it with the two training in such different styles, and how Rock was so good in putting Lesnar over in the match, wondering what he had to do to beat Lesnar. What Rock did with Lesnar was the total opposite of what HHH does, since you never see the Rock act that way against anyone else which is what made it special. HHH does it all the time, so it's meaningless. Rock was gone from the WWE afterwards and Lesnar moved on; Rock wasn't MEing the next show whereas Lesnar was curtain jerking.

[Guest wildpegasus]

Congratulations, you are the most bitter wrestling fan that I have ever encountered.

 

If you honestly think that Shelton Benjamin was ready to be a main eventer and that HHH and WWE cut his legs out from under him despite the fact that Benjamin can't cut a very good promo and for the most part doesn't get that much face heat in his matches, than I doubt there is anything that I can say to change your mind.

 

If you can't even give HHH credit for the positive things that he has done, then you are too biased to even look at HHH objectively.

I actually think Rudo's underestimating HHH's effect. The whole down cycle and te WWE's unability to flourish can in one way or another be attributed to HHH.

[Vern Gagne 0]

The Rock/Lesnar feud was so good, that I'd say the storyline and match got Lesnar over more than the rub from "beating the Rock". I loved the way they presented it with the two training in such different styles, and how Rock was so good in putting Lesnar over in the match, wondering what he had to do to beat Lesnar. What Rock did with Lesnar was the total opposite of what HHH does, since you never see the Rock act that way against anyone else which is what made it special. HHH does it all the time, so it's meaningless. Rock was gone from the WWE afterwards and Lesnar moved on; Rock wasn't MEing the next show whereas Lesnar was curtain jerking.

I miss Rock and Lesnar. Lesnar hadn't even come close to reaching his full potential, and the Rock is one of the most unselfish superstars of all time.

[Guest Hass of Pain]

Congratulations, you are the most bitter wrestling fan that I have ever encountered.

 

If you honestly think that Shelton Benjamin was ready to be a main eventer and that HHH and WWE cut his legs out from under him despite the fact that Benjamin can't cut a very good promo and for the most part doesn't get that much face heat in his matches, than I doubt there is anything that I can say to change your mind.

 

If you can't even give HHH credit for the positive things that he has done, then you are too biased to even look at HHH objectively.

I actually think Rudo's underestimating HHH's effect. The whole down cycle and te WWE's unability to flourish can in one way or another be attributed to HHH.

The down cycle can't be attributed to anyone, that's what makes it a cycle. Wrestling is a trend just like reality television was. It surges in popularity, millions jump on the bandwagon and soon their short attention spans steer them in another direction. There is absolutely no way wrestling would still be getting 6.0's had HHH not "ruined wrestling".

 

I would hate to see what you think about Ric Flair in the NWA in the 1980's until 1991. Business went down gradually with Flair on top in the 1980's and he was even more dominant than HHH is now, and his series with Ricky Steamboat was a pretty poor draw. Flair picked and choosed who he would put over, was almost always booked as the center of the show, the title always came back to him and management had to pretty much force him out the door to let the younger talent shine. So was Ric Flair responsible for the downfall of the NWA/WCW?

 

It's all a matter of perspective, Flair is loved and credited with being the guy holding the NWA up, HHH is hated and credited as being the guy destroying WWE.

[Toxxic 0]

Flair picked and choosed who he would put over, was almost always booked as the center of the show, the title always came back to him and management had to pretty much force him out the door to let the younger talent shine.

Sounds like it was his fault to me. I'm not an expert on that time in wrestling, but if the facts you're giving are true then yes, Flair WAS responsible.

 

And Vyce, thank you for completely ignoring my argument about not having an Anti-American heel get too strong. Please read beyond the first sentence next time if you're going to debunk something.

[Slayer 0]

I loved Flair in the 80's (and 90's too, of course) because of his "kiss-stealin' wheelin' dealin' limousine ridin' jet flyin'" playboy character

 

In the six years since dropping the DX naughty-boy act, I still have absolutely no fucking clue what Triple H's character is... other than "the greatest wrestler today" if I believe what he keeps saying about himself

[teke184 0]

Part of why Flair's drawing ability dwindled was due to booker Dusty Rhodes intentionally fucking with him, from putting himself over Flair for the title to making Flair look like crap every night to booking put guys like Luger and Rick Steiner over him for the title.

 

 

If Magnum TA hadn't gotten in a career-ending car wreck and was allowed to take over as the top face, Flair could have stepped back for a while and then come back fresh later on down the line.

 

The same thing would have happened if Dusty and management had treated Sting properly from 1988 to 1990.

[Guest Hass of Pain]

Part of why Flair's drawing ability dwindled was due to booker Dusty Rhodes intentionally fucking with him, from putting himself over Flair for the title to making Flair look like crap every night to booking put guys like Luger and Rick Steiner over him for the title.

 

 

If Magnum TA hadn't gotten in a career-ending car wreck and was allowed to take over as the top face, Flair could have stepped back for a while and then come back fresh later on down the line. 

 

The same thing would have happened if Dusty and management had treated Sting properly from 1988 to 1990.

Flair didn't have it that bad from Dusty Rhodes. Flair was the number one heel in the company, Dusty Rhodes was the number one face at the time. The number one heel putting the number one face over for the title is something that is always going to happen, and Flair recovered pretty well from that anyway. Dusty asking Flair to put over Rick Steiner at Starrcade wasn't that ridiculous of a request. People hear it today and think about how much Rick Steiner has sucked lately, but he used to be incredibly over and was looked at as a guy who would help carry the company into the future at the point when Dusty made the request. It would be like WWE asking HHH to put Shelton Benjamin over today, it would be shocking and some might advise against it, but it's not like asking him to put over Rosey. Flair's refusal at times to put over Lex Luger not only crippled Luger's career and got him forever labeled as the guy who can't win the big one, but really hurt business as people kept paying to see a title change that was dragged out and dragged out and eventually a lot of people lost interest. Dusty Rhodes was way more responsible for the company slipping than Flair, but Flair certainly wasn't helping matters either by helping to create very few young stars.

 

How would you say that Sting was misused? Just curious what your take is.

 

I definitely agree that Flair would have put Magnum over clean, but I still think that Flair would have ended up holding the belt on and off the majority of the time for the rest of the decade.

[Vyce 0]

And Vyce, thank you for completely ignoring my argument about not having an Anti-American heel get too strong. Please read beyond the first sentence next time if you're going to debunk something.

 

I did read your argument, and did not find it persuasive at all.

 

All you said was, "Hassan can't be pushed strong because he's got an anti-American gimmick and thus they can't make him look because it will make America look bad."

 

Bullshit. People have been put into the main event with an anti-American gimmick before. Remember Yokozuna? That was back during the early / mid 90s, when there was some anti-American sentiment directed towards the Japanese. Yoko's gimmick was not that he was a sumo. It was that he represented Japan, which was superior to America in every way. He just happened to also be a sumo because it explained his grotesque physique. Shit, just listen to Fuji's promos from back then.

 

The difference between then and now is that Yoko had the company's support as the main heel, whereas NO ONE on RAW is going to get that other than HHH. Every heel on RAW is secondary to HHH so long as Trips is a heel, and that isn't going to change anytime soon. Their gimmick is immaterial.

[Guest Tjhe CyNick]

I dont think anyone can argue that HHH caused business to go down, it had to go down, because it was so high. However, at the same time, I dont think he's done anything to help it get back to the leve it was at and then beyond. The only thing I can give him credt for is the success of Batista, but I'm hesitant to praise him too much because I know where we'll be in 4 or 5 months.

 

I agree with the point that HHH being on the show, is in itself a negative. That whole deal where the fans see certain guys as bigger stars no matter who wins and loses is preventing a lot of guys from getting over. Its the same reason why whenever Hogan is on a show, he comes off as the biggest star. Doesn't matter how many JOBs he does, as long as he's still on TV the next week, thats who the fans will see as the top guy.

 

Bret Hart didn't really get a chance to become the major star in the WWE until Hogan left, HBK was only the biggest star when Bret left for a while there in 96, and Austin didn't really blow up until HBK and Bret were off TV and Austin was allowed to become the focal point. You can keep going with that. Rock only appeared as the top dog when Austin wasn't around, and HHH only appeared to be the main guy when Rock and Austin were off TV. And when it was Hunter's time to put over Brock, he made a play to have him and Brock on different shows so there could be "two" top guys. NObody has really ever got over on HHH, and he still seems like the biggest star, even though he doesn't draw well, doesn't do great TV numbers and isn't the most over guy in the company.

 

Guys like HBK and Taker can stick around because they dont have the focus on the title like HHH does, and well, they aren't booking the shows.

 

I honestly believe the only way a guy like Batista or Orton or whoever will be able to really get over as a top guy is if HHH wee to leave TV altogether, but that aint happening.

 

Its almost a deal where you have to take one step backwards to take two forward. Yes, they might be hurt if HHH were to leave TV, but they would be forced to position new guys on top, and those guys would actually get a chance to sink or swim on their own merits. Instead of just being built up so HHH can add another title reign to his record.

 

The other thing I agreed with is how HHH has never really "put someone over" in the way that is needed to make a new star (ie with Benjamin). I love the Brock-Rocky example, because that was one of the best examples in the history of the business of how to put a guy over. Brock literally took Rock's spot, and he became a bigger star because of it. HHH has never come close to doing that with anyone, and he's had multiple opportunities to do it.

[iggymcfly 0]

The other thing I agreed with is how HHH has never really "put someone over" in the way that is needed to make a new star (ie with Benjamin). I love the Brock-Rocky example, because that was one of the best examples in the history of the business of how to put a guy over. Brock literally took Rock's spot, and he became a bigger star because of it. HHH has never come close to doing that with anyone, and he's had multiple opportunities to do it.

 

So, basically you're saying that HHH didn't put over Batista well enough because he didn't abandon he WWE to make movies afterward? Riiiight. Actually, Brock didn't take Rock's "spot" because Rock didn't have a spot. He'd only been around for a month and a half.

[Guest Super Pissed Smark]

The down cycle can't be attributed to anyone, that's what makes it a cycle.

 

So name a time when you had stars as over as Hogan, Piper and Savage or Austin, Foley and Rock and business was down.

 

Wrestling is a trend just like reality television was. It surges in popularity, millions jump on the bandwagon

 

Funny how that coincides with some guys who never got a shot before or weren't around yet or were big regional stars before being grabbed by Vince, being pushed to the top. Not with companies just sitting around, hoping that somehow the guy who hasn't drawn in over three years is magically going to start drawing again.

 

and soon their short attention spans steer them in another direction.

 

What?

 

The down cycle can't be attributed to anyone, that's what makes it a cycle. Wrestling is a trend just like reality television was.

 

Fatalist.

 

Is it just convenient that nobody can be blamed for it, or is that the whole point of the "wrestling is cyclical," deal? And they still make reality shows, so that trend is still going.

 

There is absolutely no way wrestling would still be getting 6.0's had HHH not "ruined wrestling".

 

Absolutist as well. There may be a way wrestling could be getting 6.0's, but there's no way you can prove that there's "no way" it wouldn't be. It could. Who knows what would have happened if certain people had been given a chance on top. Seems unlikely, but who can say for sure. Well, I guess an absolute fatalist could.

 

I would hate to see what you think about Ric Flair in the NWA in the 1980's until 1991.

 

Never heard of him.

 

Business went down gradually with Flair on top in the 1980's and he was even more dominant than HHH is now, and his series with Ricky Steamboat was a pretty poor draw.

 

Oh, that Ric Flair. Yeah, his matches with Steamboat were awewome. Too bad he worked for such a bunch of fuck-ups.

 

Flair picked and choosed who he would put over, was almost always booked as the center of the show, the title always came back to him and management had to pretty much force him out the door to let the younger talent shine. So was Ric Flair responsible for the downfall of the NWA/WCW?

 

Others have already pointed out how Flair was often at odds with a booker he felt was trying to sabotage him at every opportunity. Yeah, that forcing him out the door was a real good call.

 

It's all a matter of perspective, Flair is loved and credited with being the guy holding the NWA up, HHH is hated and credited as being the guy destroying WWE.

 

Flair is loved and credited with being the guy who held a piss-poor promotion together throughout a decade where pretty much all the others folded. I don't see where the perspective comes in on that. If you're trying to say that Flair and Triple-H are basically the same guy in different time periods, ahem--

 

Triple-H is married to the head writer. He's Vince McMahon's son-in-law. He's not dropping the belt to Ronnie Garvin. He has influence on everything going on in the promotion. If you get over like Jericho did when he arrived he'll bury you deeper than you could ever imagine. He is more than a little responsible for things Ric Flair never was. And he's at the top of a promotion that was as hot as a wrestling company has ever been right when he got that spot. Flair never had that luxury. I always see interviews, some might have even been with Triple-H, where they talk about carrying the ball when it's handed to you. Well, Austin, Foley and Rock handed him the ball with a 47-0 lead and Triple-H has managed to make a game of it. But it's not his fault, it's just cyclical. Convenient. Not helpful, but awfully convenient.

[Guest TheLastBoyscout]

How would you say that Sting was misused? Just curious what your take is.

The complete botching of Sting's first title reign caused the belt to be put back on Flair to stop the bleeding in January of 1991.

[SuperJerk 0]

HHH isn't the problem, the fact that WWE is still using the Attitude style of booking, television production and presentation that they have been using since 1997 is the problem. If people who stopped tuning into Raw in 2001 turn it on today, they are going to see pretty much the same opening, the same graphic presentation, the same stage setup, the same ring style and lighting, the same format of in-ring promos mixed with backstage antics and high calibur matches, and hear the same old voice of JR in The King and it is going to feel like a rerun to them, regardless of what new stars are around.

I've never heard of anyone blaming the lighting before.

[Scroby 0]

I just sorta love how Rudo has to defend himself everytime he tries to make a point across, poor guy. Here's everything in a nutshell, HHH isn't bad for buissness, HHH's ego is whats bad for buissness. Lets take a look at both brands...

 

You have the Raw brand in which case, everyone is under HHH. No matter how big a star they are or can possibly become. If your on the Raw brand, HHH is your king and everyone or anyone will be under him.

 

Now we look at the Smackdown brand and we see that everyone there has a potential to be big in someway or another without worrying about HHH overtowering someone on that brand and for those who say "lets put the brands back together.". Your insane because that would mean everyone in WWE would be right under HHH. Smackdown at least gives us a breathe of fresh air in terms of WWE, while Raw gives you that, well the same angle is gonna happen cause HHH is there feeling. HHH being injured may not be a good thing humain (sp?) wise and something no one should wish on anyone but HHH being injured and maybe put outta action and off tv for months can diffently make a huge differance on the Raw brand. Remember what happen last time, Jerhico actually became champion, what no one really thought possible, happen. The WWE itself at that time took a different turn, it was establishing new stars and the fact that people who were only considered to be mid-carders at best, were becoming maineventers. But when HHH came back, that whole idea got scraped and we were back with the basic WWE.

 

And seriously how the hell can you blame the presention of Raw ie the lighting, the sound and the feel turning people off to the show? No one is gonna go, hey I'm tired of the opening music, I'm gonna watch something else or hey, that lighting is the same as...two weeks ago! Is Monk on? The only thing you can really blame for people tuning out of Raw is because people are tired of seeing HHH's face and hearing his name every 10 to 20 minutes. Raw shouldn't be about HHH, it should be about the current wrestlers on there. How often on Raw do you hear Hassan's name until he comes out or his music interupts something or after a segment he was just in? How often do you hear about some angle HHH is in when there happens to be a match going on that has nothing to do with HHH? Just listen on any Raw and I sware you will hear HHH's name said the most on that boradcast just because he has to be in the main angle every night on that program, no matter what is going you will HHH's name said that most.