This Week(end) in Baseball

[Fökai 0]

Oh man...Skip Bayless with another gem...

 

Sorry, Raff isn't Hall-worthy

by Skip Bayless (page 2)

 

He has one of the sweetest swings ever. So effortless, so rhythmic, this left-handed stroke of baseball genius has produced 566 home runs and 2,999 hits.

 

Rafael Palmeiro is about to join some rare Hall of Fame company.

 

Only Hank Aaron, Willie Mays and Eddie Murray topped 500/3,000. Well done, Raffy.

 

And go ahead, put him in the Hall of Never Was On the Disabled List.

 

Or in the Hall of Sweetest Swings.

 

Or in the Hall of Very, Very Good.

 

But not the Hall.

 

Too many seam-headed voters are too imprisoned by milestone numbers. For them, 3,000 plus 500 equals first ballot. I realize I'm thinking way too right-brain for a baseball argument, but just listen to your instinct when I ask: "Is Rafael Palmeiro a game-changing player?"

 

Your instinct whispers no, loudly.

 

Palmeiro has made only four All-Star teams -- half of Murray's. Not once has Palmeiro been voted a starter. His highest MVP finish is fifth. Not once has he led the league in home runs, RBI or batting average.

 

Yes, he did lead the league in hits and doubles (in 1991) and in runs in (in 1993).

 

And yes, The Sporting News named him Player of the Year in 1999. He has had 10 100-plus RBI seasons -- four more than Murray. And like Murray, he has won three Gold Gloves.

 

But, what's your gut feeling: Is Rafael Palmeiro one of the dominant players of his era?

 

No!

 

Do you drop what you're doing when the Orioles are on TV and Palmeiro anchors himself in the batter's box?

 

Don't lie to yourself.

 

Palmeiro is nothing more than a very good player who has benefited from being a left-handed hitter in bandbox ballparks, Camden Yards and Ameriquest Field in Arlington, featuring right-field jet streams. Not counting the strike year of 1994, Palmeiro played five seasons in Baltimore and five in Arlington during 1995-2004.

 

He averaged a little more than 36 homers a year in Baltimore, counting last season's 23, and almost 45 a year in Arlington.

 

Yes, he still had to make home-run contact. But is he Reggie Jackson?

 

Please.

 

That's the argument you hear for Palmeiro: Reggie's in the Hall of Fame, and Palmeiro passed Reggie's 563 homers on the all-time list.

 

Oh, please.

 

Reggie Jackson made 14 All-Star teams and won two World Series MVPs, as well as the 1973 regular-season MVP. In 27 World Series games, Reggie batted .357 with 24 RBI and 10 homers -- including, of course, three in 1977's deciding Game 6 against the Dodgers.

 

Has Palmeiro ever been called Mr. October? Mr. Anything?

 

OK, Mr. Viagra. Five years after he retires, Palmeiro will be remembered mostly for doing Viagra ads.

 

Palmeiro hasn't played in a World Series. In 22 postseason games, he has only four homers and eight RBI, with a .244 average.

 

Not exactly immortal impact.

 

Forgive me, but I want my Hall of Fame to admit only larger-than-life players. Make that Gary Coopers-town. If you have to think twice about it …

 

Wade Boggs? Yes! Ryne Sandberg? Uh, well …

 

Sandberg belongs in the Hall of Very Good. Yet Boggs and Sandberg will both be inducted into the Hall of Fame on July 31.

 

Andre Dawson (one MVP, eight All-Star teams) and Dale Murphy (two MVPs, seven All-Star teams) are notable Hall snubs. I'd trade Palmeiro for either of them.

 

Still, I don't lie awake nights wondering how, in the name of Babe Ruth, Dawson and Murphy aren't Hall of Famers. I don't want a Hall of Sympathy for Very Good Players.

 

I want rare greatness, Olympus-high standards. Roger Clemens? Obviously! Barry Bonds? Even pre-steroids, no doubt. Mariano Rivera: Sure! Greg Maddux? No-brainer. Curt Schilling: Darn right. Randy Johnson? Never been anything quite like him.

 

Sammy Sosa? Uh, well, just because he had three 60-plus home run seasons at the height of the steroid era …

 

Sosa is not in my Hall of Fame either. Sosa has too often been the master of the meaningless home run. In the clutch, Sosa too often has swung at strike three in the dirt (he has led the league in strikeouts three times). Sosa too often has been a liability in right field.

 

If you want to put Sammy in your Lovable Cartoon Character Hall of Fame, fine. But he's not in my Hall.

 

Mark McGwire? Gut feeling: Yes, with or without steroids. He was a 12-time All-Star (to Sosa's seven) and helped carry three Oakland teams to the World Series (to Sosa's none). McGwire was the most feared power hitter of his time.

 

Though Jose Canseco goes into detail in his book about how he educated Palmeiro about (and injected him with) steroids, Palmeiro heatedly denied ever using steroids when he testified before Congress. Canseco joined Palmeiro in Texas for the final two months of the '92 season. That season, Palmeiro hit 22 homers. The next, he hit 37 and turned into a legitimate 40-homer threat.

 

Still, let's assume Canseco is lying. Steroid-free, Palmeiro isn't a Hall of Famer.

 

Give me no-doubters.

 

Give me Aaron, Banks, Bench, Brock, Carew, Carlton, Clemente, Cobb, Dizzy Dean, DiMaggio, Drysdale, Eckersley, Feller, Whitey Ford, Gehrig, Gibson, Grove, Hornsby, Hubbell, Walter Johnson, Kaline, Killebrew, Koufax, Mantle, Marichal, Mathewson, Mays, McCovey …

 

Mize, Morgan, Musial, Ott, Paige, Palmer, Reese, Brooks Robinson, Frank Robinson, Jackie Robinson, Ruth, Nolan Ryan, Schmidt, Seaver, Sisler, Ozzie Smith, Snider, Spahn, Speaker, Stargell, Honus Wagner, Ted Williams, Yastrzemski, Cy Young and Robin Yount.

 

Sorry, Raffy.

 

Skip Bayless can be seen Monday through Friday on "Cold Pizza," ESPN2's morning show, and at 4 p.m. ET on ESPN's "1st & 10." His column appears twice weekly on Page 2.

[Fökai 0]

Mench homer breaks up the no-no.

[KingPK 0]

And the no-no is no more as Kevin Mench hits a solo shot.

[Bored 0]

The Rangers put jumper cables on their bats, literally, before that inning so guess it worked. A's starters need to work on their no-hit, one out in the 8th pitching.

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

I agree with everything Bayless said. I don't think Palmiero is Hall worthy either.

[MarvinisaLunatic 0]

I think Raffy should be in the HOF just because it would be a crime to leave a guy with both 3,000 hits and 500 HRs out, given how exclusive that club is. I think he had to get 3,000 hits though.

 

And the O's are on their way to another win in Seattle, up 6-3 in the 8th after a Fasano HR.

 

And lo and behold, Sosa has a 3 hit night..

[Vern Gagne 0]

Bayless is all over with this artilce. Is he saying Palmeiro isn't worthy of making it on the first ballot or not worthy of making it period?

[Big McLargeHuge 0]

So, wait. Schilling is a sure-fire Hall of Famer, but Palmeiro isn't? And his main argument is that Palmeiro isn't going in because he didn't play on teams good enought to win a World Series and that he wasn't a showboating asshole?

[TheDevilAndGodAreRagingInsideMe 0]

His main point was Palmiero was not much more than a stat compiler.

[the pinjockey 0]

Yes, the people demand no-doubters like Nolan Ryan in the hall. We need more pitchers in the hall who have a whopping 2 20-win seasons, a career winning percentage of .526, and an ERA+ of 112 a solid 8 points below Kevin freaking Appier.

 

I'm am also glad to see someone can have 3,000/500 without being a game changing player.

[Guest Posada20]

Let's see the Yankees' depth chart...

 

1. Randy Johnson

2. Mike Mussina

3. Carl Pavano (DL)

4. Kevin Brown (DL)

5. Chien Ming Wang (DL)

6. Jaret Wright (DL)

7. Darrell May

8. Tim Redding

9. Tanyon Sturtze

10. Alex Graman

 

Scary.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wang should be #1 on that list.

 

Yankees are expected to obtain Al Leiter:

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article...t=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

The main problem with the Skip Bayless article is that he wants to hold Rafael Palmeiro to a different standard than the standard of entrance into the Hall of Fame. It does not work that way. But I guess these arguments tend to happen when you select sportswriters based on obnoxiousness rather than their ability to effectively argue their point.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Wang should be #1 on that list.

 

As soon as anyone can give me the name of a single pitcher with a 3.34 K/9 ratio who won 50 MLB games over the last 30 years or so, I will be happy to list Wang at the top. The only such pitcher I can find was Dan Quisenberry, who was a reliever and walked a third of the batters Wang walks.

[Precious Roy 0]

If Palmeiro had been a Yankee his whole career we wouldn't be having this conversation...

[Cuban Linx 0]

Darrell May, Tim Redding and Al Leiter shouldn't be starting anywhere, all three potentially in one rotation is just brutal.

[Gert T 0]

Got to learn the tough DVR lesson last night, as I thought taping a 4 hour block for the Astros-Cards game last night was enough time. At least it got through the top half of the 13th

 

My question for Skipper is this, what numbers will Raffy have to get to? (I know his argument is based on "dominace") He is still productive now, so he is not just hanging around to collect stats like Fred McGriff was a few years ago.

[EVIL~! alkeiper 0]

Got to learn the tough DVR lesson last night, as I thought taping a 4 hour block for the Astros-Cards game last night was enough time. At least it got through the top half of the 13th

 

My question for Skipper is this, what numbers will Raffy have to get to? (I know his argument is based on "dominace") He is still productive now, so he is not just hanging around to collect stats like Fred McGriff was a few years ago.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If Palmeiro's current numbers do not satisfy Bayless, nothing will.

 

Even McGriff was productive until his very last season with Tampa Bay. Players hanging around to collect milestones is often talked about, but the only obvious such player I've seen is Pete Rose,

[Guest StylesMark]

Darrell May, Tim Redding and Al Leiter shouldn't be starting anywhere, all three potentially in one rotation is just brutal.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You've got that right. While their bats are coming alive, the pitching is looking worse by the day.

[Guest Fishyswa]

I'm so sick of that "not the hall of very good" bit, 300 homeruns and 2000 hits is very good, 500, maybe 600, and 3000, that's hall worthy.

[Fökai 0]

It's funny that, even though both the 3,000 hits and 500 homerun career stats are considered "automatic Hall-entry" numbers individually, Palmeiro reaches them BOTH and yet still gets the shaft from writers.

 

He's soon to be in a statistical group that has Hank Aaron and Willie Mays as its only members. Possibly Barry Bonds by the end of next season. Why are all of the top writers seemingly unfazed by this?

[Damaramu 0]

And the Red Sox aren't going to just roll over and die after one loss at home.  Hopefully Francona and management have learned their lesson and not put Schilling in those situations unless they're 100% confident he can get it done.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

*recalls Pedro coming in at the end of one of the ALCS games and almost blowing it*

I dunno about the learning factor.....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's a slight exaggeration, I think you're talking about Game 7 of the ALCS. Pedro came in the 7th inning with the Red Sox up 8-1 to do mop up work (Which he shouldn't have been doing) and gave up two runs. Still an idiotic move by Francona, but at no point did Pedro almost blow the game. Unless I'm having a brainfart and forgetting about one of the other games.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ok he didn't almost blow it. But I mean he brought him in and he promptly gave up a couple of runs. It was like "Why is Pedro even coming into the game? Especially when the Yankees own him?" I mean I was afraid they were going to leave him in the rest of the game and the Yankees were going to tie it.

 

Sorry this was a convo from a couple of days ago but I just noticed this part.

 

Oh and maybe the writers are giving Palmeiro the shaft b/c he never won a WS and isn't always a big news story like they like to have? I mean he's a good guy that never gets into trouble. We know how much sports writers hate those people.

[Guest Brian]

Why can't they black out Sox/Yankees and show Sox/Indians? I'm already tired of this stuff in July. At least only one of them will make the playoffs this year.

[Guest Fishyswa]

Yeah because when it comes to hot divisional rivalries that appeal to the masses it get's no bigger than White Sox/Indians.

[Bruiser Chong 0]

Why can't they black out Sox/Yankees and show Sox/Indians? I'm already tired of this stuff in July. At least only one of them will make the playoffs this year.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the game I'm getting. Of course, I'm in Ohio right now, so it makes sense. But with Hafner leaving the game in the first, I think I'd actually prefer Sox/Yanks right now.

 

Fish, you overestimate the mass appeal of Sox/Yanks. Fans get real into the games, but those who have no bias towards either team aren't like that.

 

And here's a question for Yankees' fans: why is anyone acting like getting Al Leiter is a good thing at this point? There is a reason why he was DFA. He's just gonna be another guy who goes four or five innings, walks too many batters, gives up too many hits, and forces the pen to be put into action far too early.

[Guest Brian]

Yeah because when it comes to hot divisional rivalries that appeal to the masses it get's no bigger than White Sox/Indians.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Fuck the Yankees/Sox circle jerk. It's not like you guys need MORE media whoring.

[Guest Fishyswa]

^No one said that but to act like it has no appeal outside of Boston or New York is just being niave. Can you name higher rated games? A rivalry that produces more discussion?

 

If two teams have produced more entertainment than they have, I'm sure they'd be getting more attention.

[devo 0]

It only produces that much discussion because ESPN and the media in general won't stop shoving it down our throats.

[NoCalMike 0]

^No one said that but to act like it has no appeal outside of Boston or New York is just being niave. Can you name higher rated games? A rivalry that produces more discussion?

 

If two teams have produced more entertainment than they have, I'm sure they'd be getting more attention.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now that the Red Sox won the Series, most appeal outside of NY/Boston is gone. I mean before everyone hated the Yankees but we all equally laughed our asses off at the Red Sox for always losing to them, now The Red Sox did the unthinkable and won it all, so all that is really left is our collective hatred of the Yankees, but the Red Sox, no one cares about much anymore, except maybe for the media FACADE that they were somehow the "blue-collar" team compard to the evil empire.

[Guest Fishyswa]

"It only produces that much discussion because ESPN and the media in general won't stop shoving it down our throats."

 

Yeah just like MTV only plays pop because it's what they want everyone to like.....Give me a break, if no one cared, no one would talk about it, including the media.

 

"Now that the Red Sox won the Series, most appeal outside of NY/Boston is gone. I mean before everyone hated the Yankees but we all equally laughed our asses off at the Red Sox for always losing to them, now The Red Sox did the unthinkable and won it all, so all that is really left is our collective hatred of the Yankees, but the Red Sox, no one cares about much anymore, except maybe for the media FACADE that they were somehow the "blue-collar" team compard to the evil empire."

 

That's not the entire appeal though, this is a full on rivalry now and people recognize it as such. It's two really good teams who were made to beat eachother, baseball doesn't get better than that, and most of America knows it.

[KingPK 0]

It must be repeated:

 

Dale Sveum is an idiot.