Chris Masters isn't THAT bad, is he?

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

No he's talking about Masters.

[Vyce 0]

Here's something I don't understand: people give Masters shit, and he is still a green if not actually bad worker, though apparently some people here are turning around and giving the guy props.....but no one seems to be giving shit to Carlito.

 

Why? Cause you like his "charisma"? I want to like the guy, but I find him easily as atrociously bad in the ring as some people find Masters. I didn't care that they put 50+ year old Ric Flair over him Sunday for the title, or last night, because Flair at his advanced, broken down, shell-of-his-former-self age is a far, far better worker than Carlito. And that's scary. At this stage Carlito is an upper midcard heel, but I haven't seen anything out of him other than lackluster punches & kicks and restholds.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I actually dislike Carlito more than I do Masters.

[Carnival 0]

No he's talking about Masters.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh ok, I will agree with you that he was super horrible when he debuted. He's gotten a lot better in the ring. He's still not good, but he's passable. His mic work has gotten better too. I can't argue his genericness. I personally don't think he's very generic, but I see how other could think so.

[benoit4hor 0]

I think his offence looks a lot better than Cena's.

 

I like how he just tosses the guy to the mat after they're "out" from the Masterlock. I think hes hated because he hurt everyone's favorite jobber Steven Richards.

[Carnival 0]

Carlito is pretty shitty in the ring. That could be why he's working with Flair now, trying to make him better. They had a pretty decent match on RAW, it wasn't amazing, but i enjoyed it.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I know I'm alone on this since my buddy who is a smark too loves Carlito, but I find his character to be annoying, his mic skills to be bleh, and his in ring ability to be...well almost nonexistent. Masters looks like Lex Luger circa 1988 compared to Carlito.

[starvenger 0]

You know, things would've been much better for Masters back when we were all marks and he could do a shitload of jobber squashes.

 

Nowadays the wrestlers are expected to come right in and make a main event-type impact, and they're just not ready to be That Guy.

 

That being said, Masters IS improving, but I don't think that he'll ever be doing enough to become an IWC favourite. We're a stubborn bunch.

[jwpeer 0]

I like Carlito because he entertains me. His delivery and mannerisms come off very natural, and don't at all strike me as out of character. He's either a decent actor or just has a very smooth style. His wrestling is VERY AVERAGE. I don't think it's terrrible, but it's certainly not special. It's very average WWE heel wrestling (I doubt most people would complain if he had a damn finisher, which is really what his wrestling is lacking. With no finisher, he has nothing to build towards during a match.)

 

 

I sometimes like Masters...IN THE RING, strangely enough. He occasionally will execute a string of power moves and really look like a decent wrestler. But then he puts on that damn full nelson and I cry. I really dislike his look, as I said before his punches are so awkward looking. His promos are a bit awkward too, but I don't think his promos are very important to him getting over like Carlitos' promos are.

 

 

They are both extremely young, and are clearly very much likely the future (Along with Cena) of WWE wrestling. 3 years from now if we're still watching, we could be looking back at Carlito's first year in the WWE and how much he's progressed since then, same with the rest.

 

 

I understand you 'want them back in OVW'...but the truth is i'd rather have these guys shoved down my throat, and more important the marks throat so that we have a CORE BASE of YOUNG WRESTLERS, that have some name recognition. You don't get name recognition overnight, and if you ever want to fully get rid of the old over the hill 'legends' then you have to build it up. By Carlito having a program with Flair, and Masters w/ hbk and now maybe Flair, they're seen as credible. I mean all Carlito needs to do is counter Flair's F-Four with one of his own (Which he used to use in puerto rico) and suddenly he's even more over with a move that Carlito would look great applying onto someone, in addition to his speaking ability.

 

 

 

I suppose it's just a matter of patience.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I like Carlito because he entertains me. His delivery and mannerisms come off very natural, and don't at all strike me as out of character. He's either a decent actor or just has a very smooth style. His wrestling is VERY AVERAGE. I don't think it's terrrible, but it's certainly not special. It's very average WWE heel wrestling (I doubt most people would complain if he had a damn finisher, which is really what his wrestling is lacking. With no finisher, he has nothing to build towards during a match.)

 

 

I sometimes like Masters...IN THE RING, strangely enough. He occasionally will execute a string of power moves and really look like a decent wrestler. But then he puts on that damn full nelson and I cry. I really dislike his look, as I said before his punches are so awkward looking. His promos are a bit awkward too, but I don't think his promos are very important to him getting over like Carlitos' promos are.

 

 

They are both extremely young, and are clearly very much likely the future (Along with Cena) of WWE wrestling.  3 years from now if we're still watching, we could be looking back at Carlito's first year in the WWE and how much he's progressed since then, same with the rest.

 

 

I understand you 'want them back in OVW'...but the truth is i'd rather have these guys shoved down my throat, and more important the marks throat so that we have a CORE BASE of YOUNG WRESTLERS, that have some name recognition.  You don't get name recognition overnight, and if you ever want to fully get rid of the old over the hill 'legends' then you have to build it up.  By Carlito having a program with Flair, and Masters w/ hbk and now maybe Flair, they're seen as credible.  I mean all Carlito needs to do is counter Flair's F-Four with one of his own (Which he used to use in puerto rico)  and suddenly he's even more over with a move that Carlito would look great applying onto someone, in addition to his speaking ability.

 

 

 

I suppose it's just a matter of patience.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

That's a horrible way of looking at it. Glad to see you're eating their shit with a grin on your face.

[randomguy 0]

About Masters vs. Carlito. In the match Masters had against Flair, Flair basically just did chops while Masters had a decent variety of offense with some actual wrestling moves.

 

In Flair vs. Carlito last night, Flair was the one with the offense and controlled the match, Carlito didn't really do anything.

 

It's fair to say that putting Masters with Flair and HBK makes him look better, but Flair isn't the one doing the press slam, brain buster, torture rack, etc. At this point every match Masters has some new move to pull out. Whereas Carlito is raking eyes as his offense.

 

Masters was pushed too early, and his early fights were abysmal. But he has improved a lot, and if he continues to improve could be pretty good. He's not a main eventer but he's no Tomko or Snitsky either. He held his own in the match last night.

[Fro 0]

You want to hear tumbleweeds watch anything involving Batista in early 2004. Now THAT is heatless. If it wasn't for Triple H, Batista would still be a generic worthless hoss on the level of Tyson Tomko. I still think he is.

 

There's a pretty good reason why Batista was the most over wrestler in the history of OVW. He's always had a great ring presence in the ring and he looks freakish.

 

What WWE did was give him a lame character and have him get squashed for the first year he was in WWE.

 

He's Goldberg, in other words.

[jwpeer 0]

That's a horrible way of looking at it. Glad to see you're eating their shit with a grin on your face.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

I don't think so at all, because i'm appropriately negative about LOTS of things. I didn't buy Unforgiven, i haven't watched smackdown in quite awhile, and I regularly flip from crap RAW segments to MNF or anything else that catches my fancy. It's not a matter of 'eating shit' it's amatter of looking at some positives behind what they're doing, which there ARE.

 

 

Just because i have a more open-minded outlook than you, doesn't mean I'm horrible. It just means i'm not as critical. There's such a thing as a laid back smark, oddly enough

 

 

Sure, i could get worked up over every little shitty thing they do that I don't 100% agree with, but then I'd be a whiny prick and not enjoy any of the other million things I do in life.

[jwpeer 0]

whoosp, Double post, fixed. Sorry.,

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

I can enjoy the product if the product is enjoyable. Simple as that. I don't go looking for positives if the negatives outweighs them.

[jwpeer 0]

About Masters vs. Carlito. In the match Masters had against Flair, Flair basically just did chops while Masters had a decent variety of offense with some actual wrestling moves.

 

In Flair vs. Carlito last night, Flair was the one with the offense and controlled the match, Carlito didn't really do anything.

 

It's fair to say that putting Masters with Flair and HBK makes him look better, but Flair isn't the one doing the press slam, brain buster, torture rack, etc. At this point every match Masters has some new move to pull out. Whereas Carlito is raking eyes as his offense.

 

Masters was pushed too early, and his early fights were abysmal. But he has improved a lot, and if he continues to improve could be pretty good. He's not a main eventer but he's no Tomko or Snitsky either. He held his own in the match last night.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I agree with everything here.

Though I still enjoy Carlito *shrug*

[jwpeer 0]

I can enjoy the product if the product is enjoyable. Simple as that. I don't go looking for positives if the negatives outweighs them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

i don't really think I was -reaching- on those positives, they seem readily apparent to me. It's not like I'm trying to say "Oh give Carlito a chance, just watch he could be THE NEXT CHRIS BENOIT"...of COURSE he can't.

 

But he could be the first Carlito, I guess I'm not so quick to judge as the average smark. It's a different mindset.

[USC Wuz Robbed! 0]

Well good for you. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy the product. If you do, good for you. I just don't see how anyone who is a fan of the in-ring product and is a fan of what wrestling should be about WOULD enjoy the current product and the current... "talents".

[Guest Fishyswa]

I'm calling it now, once Carlito goes on his first face run, establishes a finisher and begins building a moveset, he'll be touted as the next "it guy".

 

Working the most generic heel style in the world is KILLING him right now.

[jwpeer 0]

Well good for you. I'm not saying you shouldn't enjoy the product. If you do, good for you. I just don't see how anyone who is a fan of the in-ring product and is a fan of what wrestling should be about WOULD enjoy the current product and the current... "talents".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

That's pretty elitist, making your own definition of what 'wrestling should be about' without actually saying what it is. I don't fall in line with the whole 'this is an ideal way a wrestling match should go' sort of thing. My favorite wwe match of the year was the Benoit v. Regal velocity match, which was totally different than anything you'll find on any sort of north american show at all. The few RoH matches I've managed to see aren't fought like that either, the struggling over every move fighting for position and advantage type of effort. I mean is the wwe style is VERY bland in general, but it's not without some good highlights from time to time...and I don't think it's a "Wrestling fan sin" to enjoy what they have to offer if it's not absolutely abysmal (Which Masters certainly wasn't in that 8-man tag, nor was Carlito horrendous in the flair match, though he did lack offense)

 

 

Or maybe I just don't know what wrestling 'should be about'.

[Carnival 0]

I'm calling it now, once Carlito goes on his first face run, establishes a finisher and begins building a moveset, he'll be touted as the next "it guy".

 

Working the most generic heel style in the world is KILLING him right now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I touted him as the next Rock the second he appeared. I also thought Simon Diamond was gonna be the next big thing back in 99. I was wrong.

[naiwf 0]

"An over heel should get booed, or have a chant directed at them by the fans ala Angle's "You Suck". Masters still comes out to tumbleweeds, and has been steadily doing so since his debut."

 

He got booed last night, at Unforgiven(where he also had people chanting against him) and in the Masterlock challenge against HBK.

 

Are tumbleweeds really that loud?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

All three instances in his months long career had him going against (at least) a perennial fan favorite. Every other match he's been involved in I had to check to see if I'd accidentally muted the TV or if perhaps RAW lost its audio feed. He's not over, and it's laughable to say otherwise. I might also chime in that Batista was in the same position at one point, but Masters doesn't benefit from being around anyone else to protect him. Yes, Carlito sucks as much as Masters does, or even more, but at least he has a character. Masters as a balding, shortish piece of "perfection", with a lisp no less, just doesn't make any sense.

[Gary Floyd 0]

Is Masters that bad? Well, I don't think he's the worst, but he definately sucks in the ring, and he's being pushed too soon. I think they should have kept him as a Mid-Carder for a while, give him some time to improve. I mean sure, he sucks now, but he could improve given time. That out of the way, as of right now, he still sucks both in the ring and on the mic, and has almost no heat. Therefore, he's not deserving of his current push.

 

I will agree that he's better than Carlito.

[cabbageboy 0]

Carlito won't be shit for one major reason: The guy has NO physique. I mean seriously, he looks like a Saturday morning jobber on a Superstars show from 1988. If he can talk, fine, make him Masters's manager and let him do the talking and Masters can do the wrestling. Or they can tag. He's much more Johnny Polo circa 1993-94 than he is The Rock (or even Razor Ramon).

 

Carlito is a far worse worker than Chris Masters. He has no believable offense, no finisher, nothing that would make you say "This guy could win this match." Even if he turned face the only thing he could do is suddenly develop a clue on how to sell in dramatic fashion (a la Michaels) because him beating the shit out of someone is absurd. Sure, he had a pretty decent match last night with Flair but for god's sake Flair got a watchable match out of DAVID FLAIR. That whole match was Flair leading him around by the hand.

 

At the end of the day though you wanna know why people resent guys like Masters and Carlito? They don't pay the dues. There's something romantic about a guy working his way up through territories or shitty indie feds until finally getting a break. Some OVW rookie being brought up and having a huge push is bound to cause resentment, and with Carlito he has the double whammy of being given TWO major titles upon his debut (one on Smackdown, the other on Raw) as well as mainly being pushed due to his daddy.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's times like these where I really

 

Really

 

REALLY

 

Really.

 

REEEEEEEEEEALY

 

miss Brock Lesnar.

[Epic Reine 0]

I suppose he isn't overbearingly terrible but given his push based soley on his physique is just stupid. I'd say he improved since his debut and has gotten more over because of his established finisher but I honestly don't see how he deserves such a high main event spot. Vince will never learn that roided up freaks will not always win him money.

 

And as for Carlito, yea he isn't a great worker but he is over and has great charisma which warrants his spot on Raw which is why I value him over Masters. Masters doesn't have main event charisma simply put.

 

Who was the last guy Vince pushed that somehow got over because he was shoved down our throats? Randy Orton anyone?

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

It's ok to say Masters is terrible. Fuck these motherfuckers who think because the pickings are so slim in the WWE, when a guy comes in who doesn't fuck up moves, that that's something worth seeing. Masters is basic, and when the fuck is basic acceptable at this level of wrestling?

[Guest Fishyswa]

^When the guy is currently gaining experience.

 

Yeah it'd be nice to see some more Lesnar's, guys who already come with an advantage, but there far and few between, and if WWE is gonna groom guys on TV, so be it, it's not like he's taking up Tajiri's time....

 

"All three instances in his months long career had him going against (at least) a perennial fan favorite. Every other match he's been involved in I had to check to see if I'd accidentally muted the TV or if perhaps RAW lost its audio feed. He's not over, and it's laughable to say otherwise."

 

This is all according to you, who said he STILL comes out to tumbleweeds, meaning against the perennial fan favorite. If it comes down to you saying it making it true, I'm gonna have to believe otherwise from what you've said so far. The second he was established he was getting reactions. Hell the promo's leading up to his debut were getting heat. Just because it's not HBK full fledged heel in Montreal doesn't mean it's not heat.

 

He plays his character fine.

[RavishingRickRudo 0]

The correct answer was:

 

"You're right, the pickings are slim. I takes what I gets."

 

Your answer missed a key point in "at this level of wrestling". If Masters were working the way he does at an indy show, I probably would have praised him for his basics - since that sort of thing is lost on many indy workers. But this is the big time - I don't accept that, and neither should anyone else (that has an ounce of self-respect as a wrestling fan). I don't care if he's inexperienced, green, "not quite there yet", or however you want to explain his inability to produce anything worth seeing in or out of the ring, who the fuck watches the WWE to see someone go from rookie suck to experienced suck? I don't. I expect a certain level of ability, if I don't get it, then I don't care if it's his first day wrestling, the only thing I consider in this matter is the end-results.

[The Mandarin 0]

Rudo, I love you for your comments about indy wrestlers needing more basics. I remember your long post about the UWA show, and that's precisely what was missing there (other than more diverse booking).

 

Carlito is a far worse worker than Chris Masters anyone else on Raw. He has no believable existing offense, no finisher, nothing that would make you say "This guy could win this match deserves to be in pro wrestling."