The OAO Raw Homecoming Thread

[SuperJerk 0]

The Austin segment could've been shorter, but I'm sure the majority of the fanbase ate it up.

[Guest MikeSC]

And if nobody explained the good part of the show, you might have a point, K.

 

But, as per usual, you decide what it was people liked about the show.

 

So be it.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Comparing this show to TNA's first show on Spike. Classic. What else will the apologists come up with to justify how terrible this show was?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The Ironman match was quite good. The ladder match was decent enough. I liked the Legends segment.

 

If this was done on an ECW show or TNA show, people on this board would be raving.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No it wasn't quite good. In what world was the iron man match good? From a markish point of view? Well I didn't see any of the things that those fans equate with good wrestling (big spots and blood mainly). It certainly wasn't good from a workrate point of view, or else I would have seen some build or psychology going on there.

 

It's comical to compare this huge, hyped up, PPV-level episode of RAW to a 1 hour Impact show, even if it was their Spike debut. As it stands, this RAW wasn't much better than Impact, which sucked, and that's sad.

[Guest MikeSC]

The Ironman match told the usual Shawn Michaels match "story" --- and did it better than Shawn usually does it. The constant beat-down by Angle, Shawn's comebacks --- and his rather consistent selling of the ankle (hell, even sold pain on the nip-up). I would've preferred a clean finish, but the match did its job: made Angle look like an absolute machine and let Shawn do what he honestly does best, namely play the role of "guy who gets the ever-loving shit beat out of him".

 

The match didn't have big spots. It also did not need them. They're turning Angle from comical to machine-like badass and this only furthered that more.

[Vyce 0]

I have to disagree with Mike. This RAW, IMO, can only be considered a critical disappointment. There was ambition there to make it great, but they just could NOT pull it off. The mean side of me wants to say that's because they're just too fucking inept at this point to make it work.

 

Yes, the ladder match and ironman match were good. For those criticizing either of those matches, I base that comment on what we get on a normal RAW. Were those good matches for RAW, as it is today? I'd say yes.

 

But those two matches weren't enough to cover up the rest of the show, which alternated between being too long, or too short, an altogether rather pointless.

[Guest fanofcoils]

Piper and Foley didn't interact enough. Angle should have won the ironman match. Austin segment was good but a little long at the end and Linda's stunner sell hurt it I think. They should have built up HHH and Flair's relationship more in a video before their segment, then again I could have missed that part. The HHH-Flair backstage thing was stupid, it should have ended in a usual HHH beatdown in the ring. The main event was good, I don't think we need a 15 minute "solid match" to be considered good, it can be a squash and be good. The Smackdown vs Raw stuff at the end was good, but nothing great of course. Heels and faces on one brand aligning against the other brand makes sense, it is only during the Raw vs SD battle, then it will be back to normal after it is over.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Meanwhile, the pacing sucked, the whole ankle lock usage was completely ridiculous (so HBK can take the ankle lock for a minute after submitting to it earlier in the match, when his ankle wasn't in such bad condition?). The "story" you bring up is irrelevant, because it was told so poorly that the match still came off like crap. Angle and HBK are done together, unless they can smarten their work up and become creative.

[Guest fanofcoils]

I didn't expect a mindblowing show or something to that degree like some of you, I expected a good show which it was, it was a pretty good Raw, but of course I wish it could have been better.

[Guest ABOBO]

Hard to take Angle seriously when they keep having him hit himself in the face with a chair.

[Guest MikeSC]

Logically, earlier in the match, you'd tap out quickly to avoid long-term damage and attempt to make up that loss later. Shawn didn't tap out at the end because he couldn't afford to and he kept looking at the clock on the Titantron --- nice touch, mind you --- to see how long he had to go.

 

Angle kept going after the ankle and Shawn spent the last half of the match trying to protect himself and get his shots in when he could. It told the story well.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Yes, the ladder match and ironman match were good.  For those criticizing either of those matches, I base that comment on what we get on a normal RAW.  Were those good matches for RAW, as it is today?  I'd say yes. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Was it actually good for RAW though? Shelton vs. Angle from a few weeks ago smoked the hell out of anything on the show tonight, but it was only ***-***1/4, which is what I'd call a good match. And I don't believe in giving extra praise to a simply "good" match just because it's a lot better than what we normally get.

[Darthtiki 0]

It's not a perfect show hell it's not super great, I won't be the first to concede that, but there can be enjoyment found in something flawed. Also, how many of you thought that this one show was going to be the fix it all show that make you say WWE is back? I sure as hell wasn't expecting that.

[Guest *KNK*]

Meanwhile, the pacing sucked, the whole ankle lock usage was completely ridiculous (so HBK can take the ankle lock for a minute after submitting to it earlier in the match, when his ankle wasn't in such bad condition?). The "story" you bring up is irrelevant, because it was told so poorly that the match still came off like crap. Angle and HBK are done together, unless they can smarten their work up and become creative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's not going to happen, the signs were there @ Vengence that those two wouldn't be capable of topping their severely over-rated WM21 encounter and basically were only there to satisfy themselves but I can't even imagine they'd consider this worthy of anything.

 

I didn't think it was possible for these two to give a boring and emotionless match (they might not be classics but they were able to get the crowd alive for them in the first two).

 

This was another example of how flawed the Ironman gimmick is, it completely shuts out the fans and since they don't back it up with quality work, it falls flat.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Logically, earlier in the match, you'd tap out quickly to avoid long-term damage and attempt to make up that loss later. Shawn didn't tap out at the end because he couldn't afford to and he kept looking at the clock on the Titantron --- nice touch, mind you --- to see how long he had to go.

 

Angle kept going after the ankle and Shawn spent the last half of the match trying to protect himself and get his shots in when he could. It told the story well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't buy that for a second. The ankle lock is a move that requires the guy to be damaged before they tap to it. Meaning it's not some killer move that can cripple the opponent and force him to tap immediately. At least, that's the way it's been presented with the HBK-Angle feud. And what would be the point of tapping early when Angle could just slap it right back on, or not even let go at all? Admittedly, that didn't happen, but that's just more faulty logic, so it doesn't really justify the early tap.

[World's Worst Man 0]

Meanwhile, the pacing sucked, the whole ankle lock usage was completely ridiculous (so HBK can take the ankle lock for a minute after submitting to it earlier in the match, when his ankle wasn't in such bad condition?). The "story" you bring up is irrelevant, because it was told so poorly that the match still came off like crap. Angle and HBK are done together, unless they can smarten their work up and become creative.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's not going to happen, the signs were there @ Vengence that those two wouldn't be capable of topping their severely over-rated WM21 encounter and basically were only there to satisfy themselves but I can't even imagine they'd consider this worthy of anything.

 

I didn't think it was possible for these two to give a boring and emotionless match (they might not be classics but they were able to get the crowd alive for them in the first two).

 

This was another example of how flawed the Ironman gimmick is, it completely shuts out the fans and since they don't back it up with quality work, it falls flat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Indeed. The ironman match gimmick just sucks. There's too many gaps in logic, like what I mentioned in my previous post. If a guy is using a submission, why not just hold on after the guy taps? In the match tonight, there wasn't a rest period, nor did the clock stop between falls. It amounts to using things just for the sake of having a finish, without logically working it into the match. Kind of like that absolutely god awful finish to their Vengeance match.

[bob_barron 0]

I don't get how the first two Angle v. HBK matches went 20+ matches while this has four falls in 30 minutes.

 

The match was okay, but there was too much resting by Angle.

 

The ladder match was good but too short and had a horrible ending.

 

The rest of the show was pretty bad.

[naiwf 0]

It's not a perfect show hell it's not super great, I won't be the first to concede that, but there can be enjoyment found in something flawed.  Also, how many of you thought that this one show was going to be the fix it all show that make you say WWE is back?  I sure as hell wasn't expecting that.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

If they were just going to go for enjoyment and nostalgia, why bother going with an actual show you promoted to be on par with a PPV? Why not just show a 2 or 3 hour clip package of the "Best of RAW on USA" and be done with it? There was nothing any better about this RAW than the one last week or the week before, but they made it out as though it was going to be the greatest free TV show ever.

 

Between the bait and switch on SD, the 3 minute long ME, Linda wasting 10 minutes to not even attempt to sell the Stunner and HHH beating Flair's ass for almost the length of the longest match besides the Iron Man there was just a slew of poor decisions made. Basically, it was the same old RAW with a ton of unneccessary fanfare.

[Guest MikeSC]

Logically, earlier in the match, you'd tap out quickly to avoid long-term damage and attempt to make up that loss later. Shawn didn't tap out at the end because he couldn't afford to and he kept looking at the clock on the Titantron --- nice touch, mind you --- to see how long he had to go.

 

Angle kept going after the ankle and Shawn spent the last half of the match trying to protect himself and get his shots in when he could. It told the story well.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I don't buy that for a second. The ankle lock is a move that requires the guy to be damaged before they tap to it. Meaning it's not some killer move that can cripple the opponent and force him to tap immediately.

True. But if somebody sells it, the longer it's applied, the longer and worse the damage becomes. To me, it'd make perfect sense to tap to a submission hold early in an Ironman match (or even a 2/3 falls match) and try to make it up later rather than "gut it out" and then basically ignore that you were in a devastating hold early in the match.

 

THAT leads to piss-poor selling, because the face has to make a rally and can't sell an injury, non-stop, for more than half of the match.

At least, that's the way it's been presented with the HBK-Angle feud. And what would be the point of tapping early when Angle could just slap it right back on, or not even let go at all? Admittedly, that didn't happen, but that's just more faulty logic, so it doesn't really justify the early tap.

In those matches, after the fall, you're supposed to back off your opponent for a second. That is all Shawn was looking for. Get Angle off his ankle for a moment so he could get away. Perfectly logical.

 

And if Angle refused to break the hold, it'd 1) be good psychology (but lead to a bad match) and 2) would lead to Shawn Michaels getting a DQ verdict.

 

It'd be as wise as, say, waffling a guy with a steel chair. You get a DQ, but then you can usually pile up at least one pinfall right after that in an Ironman match.

 

They fixed up one of the things people gripe about (Shawn doesn't sell) and produced a match where Shawn sold, the action made perfect logical sense, and both men came out looking fine.

[Guest fanofcoils]

Are they afraid at ending a 30 minute ironman match at 2 falls to 1 and a 60 minute iron man match 3 falls to 2? Why are there so many falls in ironman matches usually?

[Guest MikeSC]

Because it's not life-and-death, "OMG, I get pinned/tap/get counted out/etc here and the match is over".

 

You have a chance to rally.

[Guest]

I'm not all the way through this show yet, but a thought.

 

I hated the ending of the ironman match. HBK should have never been able to withstand the heel hook for that long, and when he did SCM he should not have been able to plant on that foot to make the kick, because his ankle was so "ravaged" during the heel hook. The ending was so horrible that I won't be able to remember much else about the match until I watch it again.

[Guest MikeSC]

He couldn't support his weight. He hit the kick and dropped to the mat like a rock in one motion. He clearly couldn't support his weight at the end.

 

And he "lasted" because he saw the clock on the Titantron and it showed him how long he had to last for.

[Guest]

He really should have fell down before even hitting the kick.

[Guest MikeSC]

You could support your weight for the split second he was on it. It's not like he didn't drop to the mat immediately after it happened.

 

He did the same thing at Taboo Tuesday.

[Guest]

I've never seen Taboo Tuesday, thus I didn't know that.

 

The heel hook's supposed to be deadly. He did hold on for entirely too long, just as he held on too long at Mania.

[Guest MikeSC]

Shawn was working with some knee injury (I think a legit one --- God only knows) and worked a rather bad match with HHH unable to really do much of anything away from the ropes due to an inability to walk. He still managed to hit SCM --- even if it was a really, really ugly version of it.

[World's Worst Man 0]

We're just splitting hairs here. The match wasn't well worked. It didn't build logically, nor was there a clear, tangible story. Saying the story was "HBK getting beat down" doesn't fly, because it just didn't play out that way. A few control segments don't mean the guy is getting his ass kicked. If they were playing the "so and so getting beat down" story, or any story really, it has to be done in a way that leaves no doubt. Because really, you can find a "story" in even the worst wrestling matches, if you look hard enough for it.

[Guest MikeSC]

Angle went after HBK's ankle relentlessly. That was pretty much all he did. Just about every spot --- especially from the 15 minute mark until the end --- was targeted towards slapping on the anklelock. If he did anything that didn't attack the leg, he'd immediately target the ankle right afterwards.

 

HBK sought to keep away and hit him when he could. HBK did not look even remotely dominant, just as a "plucky" fighter who basically counter-punched. He got a fluke pin to break up Angle's pretty dominant ass-kicking for the last half of the match.

 

The story was as clear as the story in tons of other matches.

 

Shawn, for once, actually told a story and actually sold in the manner so many critics have bitched about him failing to do for a long while now. The match made perfect sense to me and I expressed the very simple story to you.

 

If you disagree, so be it. I don't care enough about it to worry.

[naiwf 0]

Angle went after HBK's ankle relentlessly. That was pretty much all he did. Just about every spot --- especially from the 15 minute mark until the end --- was targeted towards slapping on the anklelock. If he did anything that didn't attack the leg, he'd immediately target the ankle right afterwards.

 

HBK sought to keep away and hit him when he could. HBK did not look even remotely dominant, just as a "plucky" fighter who basically counter-punched. He got a fluke pin to break up Angle's pretty dominant ass-kicking for the last half of the match.

 

The story was as clear as the story in tons of other matches.

 

Shawn, for once, actually told a story and actually sold in the manner so many critics have bitched about him failing to do for a long while now. The match made perfect sense to me and I expressed the very simple story to you.

 

If you disagree, so be it. I don't care enough about it to worry.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

By your own account, Angle worked on his leg for 15 straight minutes and the "story" of the match was that HBK was still able to no sell all of that at least three separate times with nip ups and two different flash versions of SCM. The last one leading to what would have been the decisive fall had time not expired.

 

So, let's recap. . . Angle DOMINATES Michaels throughout the length of the match, consistently works over the ankle, and yet still looks like he would have lost if there had been just two seconds more in the time limit. Anyone but Shawn would be villified for that kind of bullshit, but HBK gets away with it because he's "plucky" or has "adrenaline bursts". It sure must be nice to be the only undersized guy in the company who can do that EVERY single match, and then be praised for telling a great story. I just don't get it.

[Guest]

This show was ok. It became mass overkill with the returns of the legends. I understand that WWE was trying to pop a huge rating, but return after return causes me to care less and less when they trot more people out.